Announcement and discussion on dissenting theology

[Davidnic]

People define those words differently. The statements for each forum give a pretty good idea of the kind of thing that goes there. For example I will attend a TLM where available. I also have many Traditional practices. But I do not doubt Vatican II and I do not think any Pope since VCII is close to heresy. So the Traditional Forum is not for me as a home. I also have views many might call liberal but I do not believe in the development of dogma or doctrine in manner that changes the actual revealed truth, and I do not believe in many other things in a liberal theology. So TLT is not for me as a home.

 

[Michie]

My understanding is as long as you do not dissent from Rome then you can post here. All dissenting posts go in the other forums.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

My understanding is as long as you do not dissent from Rome then you can post here. All dissenting posts go in the other forums.

OK, we'll see how that works out.

Jim

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I think the upside in all of this is the (hopefully) lessened workload on our fine staff which all work voluntarily to make cf running.

This should give the mods sharper lines and an easier job to keep this place as unbiased as possible.

The grey areas are reduced with this new edification.
If people violates the house rules its a lot easier to deal with.

 

[Tallguy88]

Well I think it's unfair to blame us, we didn't throw the first punch.
The leeway for characters like (I won't name names) have been a longtime issue in here, the constant liberal agenda has been pushing this CF-schism of ours for years and the recent developments in Rome has only fueled that growing problems already persent in here to a point of where it has become toxic.

When someones finally picking up the gloves it's a highly unfair caricature to paint them as the agitator.

I distance myself from any such allegations.

Of course both sides do it and both will be cracked down on.

 

[Tallguy88]

So who decides who's post is liberal or traditional ?

I consider myself a traditional Catholic, but I'm sure there are those who label me liberal and my post are probably not welcomed here.

Jim

Your posts have never been a problem that I've seen. You're not a Traditionalist in the same sense SSPX or Sedes are. At least you don't post like they would.

 

[Tallguy88]

My understanding is as long as you do not dissent from Rome then you can post here. All dissenting posts go in the other forums.

Right-o.

 

[Fish and Bread]

This sounds like it will be a good thing for all three forums. OBOB will probably be a more peaceful place (I assume. To be honest, I haven't really monitored or posted to OBOB regularly in a long time, so I don't really know the current state of play,), and both TLT and SOTE will be allowed to more fully develop in a way consistent with their purposes and membership and incorporate more of the posters who might find either one of them a good safe haven and affinity group.

If I might offer a very small tweak to this, as a suggestion:

Since OBOB is now linked to in both TLT's and SOTE's State of Purposes, could we have OBOB include a link to both of these forums in it's Statement of Purpose, and include a link to TLT and SOTE in the statement of purposes of each other's forums as well?

Basically, it'd mean that every Statement of Purpose in any of the three forums would include links to the other two Catholic forums. This would be helpful to people who may have followed a link to one forum, and would like to explore one or both of the other forums to see which one is right for them, or to see if multiple forums fit them, but have no idea that the other two forums exist (I have seen posters who aren't aware of where they are posting and that other Catholic forums exist in different places from time to time).

Basically, it's cross-promotion that work to the benefit of all three groups, I think, and would be a service to the membership of the site. It would both promote more cross-traffic, and also cut down on inappropriate posts from folks, as they could sort themselves more easily on their own initiative.

It also seems more fair, because if we view these as three equal forums, having two link to the one, without reciprocal links, gives the impression that they are now (i.e. If we imagined that three separate people ran each of the forums and negotiated things, they would all almost certainly ask for reciprocal links in exchange for posting links to one or both of the other forums).

 

[Fish and Bread]

Also, as aside, I'd like to invite any liberal Catholics who feel like this may inhibit their ability to be themselves here to check out The Lord's Table, if they haven't already. Some people post there exclusively, and others check out various forums, which sometimes include OBOB for some posters. It's not necessarily an "either/or", it can be a "both/and", potentially. I imagine that there wouldn't really be crossover between TLT and SOTE, but certainly each group might have some overlap with OBOB, and CF offers a lot of other forums and affinity groups for people as well that aren't specifically Catholic.

Here is a link to TLT:

The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics

Just to sort of provide a sort of "new user's guide" so that people fit in: TLT is generally less debate focused than OBOB has been historically. That's not necessarily by rule, it's just that I think the temperament of the group has turned out to be more relaxed and fellowship like because there are fewer "hard" clashes in ideology. The small things tend to seem like, well, small things. We do a lot of fellowship threads and posts.

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[Gnarwhal]

This all makes perfect sense to me (to be honest, I thought that's how it was arranged in the first place).

Thank you @Davidnic and @Tallguy88 for working hard to make these forums peaceful, sometimes what you guys do is a thankless job - so thanks for all your efforts.

 

[Rhamiel]

This sounds like it will be a good thing for all three forums. OBOB will probably be a more peaceful place (I assume. To be honest, I haven't really monitored or posted to OBOB regularly in a long time, so I don't really know the current state of play,), and both TLT and SOTE will be allowed to more fully develop in a way consistent with their purposes and membership and incorporate more of the posters who might find either one of them a good safe haven and affinity group.

If I might offer a very small tweak to this, as a suggestion:

Since OBOB is now linked to in both TLT's and SOTE's State of Purposes, could we have OBOB include a link to both of these forums in it's Statement of Purpose, and include a link to TLT and SOTE in the statement of purposes of each other's forums as well?

Basically, it'd mean that every Statement of Purpose in any of the three forums would include links to the other two Catholic forums. This would be helpful to people who may have followed a link to one forum, and would like to explore one or both of the other forums to see which one is right for them, or to see if multiple forums fit them, but have no idea that the other two forums exist (I have seen posters who aren't aware of where they are posting and that other Catholic forums exist in different places from time to time).

Basically, it's cross-promotion that work to the benefit of all three groups, I think, and would be a service to the membership of the site. It would both promote more cross-traffic, and also cut down on inappropriate posts from folks, as they could sort themselves more easily on their own initiative.

It also seems more fair, because if we view these as three equal forums, having two link to the one, without reciprocal links, gives the impression that they are now (i.e. If we imagined that three separate people ran each of the forums and negotiated things, they would all almost certainly ask for reciprocal links in exchange for posting links to one or both of the other forums).

the cross promotion would help encourage more activity on all three forums and help new people get a "lay of the land"
great idea

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The rest of us can marvel at how the two groups are virtually exactly the same.

Actually, they are opposites. The liberals want radical changes while the traditionalists are against any changes. It's like black and white.

 

[Fourth of Forth]

Things like...how far can we go with Legitimate Killing, The balance between helping refugees and obligations to safety..ect...those are topics still good for OBOB. Those are debates on the application of teaching...not opposition to it. So keep in mind those kind of thing (of which there are many) are still ok.

But promoting that there is historically allowable women priests, the Pope might be in heresy, Vatican II is against teaching, Dogma can change in anything other than the approved understanding of that term...those things should go to the appropriate area.

Which bishop makes this determination?

 

[Davidnic]

Which bishop makes this determination?

The lines are fairly clear from the Magisterium. Where there are grey areas we work together on it as a community.

 

[pdudgeon]

Well I think it's unfair to blame us, we didn't throw the first punch.
The leeway for characters like (I won't name names) have been a longtime issue in here, the constant liberal agenda has been pushing this CF-schism of ours for years and the recent developments in Rome has only fueled that growing problems already persent in here to a point of where it has become toxic.

When someones finally picking up the gloves it's a highly unfair caricature to paint them as the agitator.

I distance myself from any such allegations.

Amen to this. CF for years has had a liberal bias to the point that they can't recognize it for what it truly is any more, and absolutely deny it to the hilt.

In OBOB we've tried to stem that tide, but we've fought a loosing battle against it. So if you want to blame us for not being liberal, then I think that's something that we would willingly own up to.

and to be extremely honest, in all my years here i have never ever had such a long double digit list of members that I have been ignoring out of necessity.
Now the ignore feature is used not just to retain my composure and have some breathing space as in past years, but these days ignoring, reduced posting, and non-engagement has become an absolute necessity in order to just remain a member here.

I would very much like to post more and to do so while remaining within the CF rules.
This is my prime 'go to' spot on the web. I log on multiple times during the day and night, and have been doing so for many, many years.

but the increasingly liberal bias of the site is making my posting almost impossible.

 

[Fourth of Forth]

The lines are fairly clear from the Magisterium. Where there are grey areas we work together on it as a community.

So the laity don't need bishops, they can interpret divisions and heresies for themselves. They can work together as a community on issues of doctrine.

 

[pdudgeon]

So who decides who's post is liberal or traditional ?

I consider myself a traditional Catholic, but I'm sure there are those who label me liberal and my post are probably not welcomed here.

Jim

the whole point is to make friendly posts.
anyone can do that, and I've seen you do that lots of times.
Thank you!

but in order to have a multitude of friendly posts on here so that we can get along, someone has got to drop their sword and stop hitting the report button with glee.

If we don't stop this "up river" so to speak, we can't entirely blame the mods for what happens to us when the bait is set before them.

 

[pdudgeon]

Of course both sides do it and both will be cracked down on.

we keep hearing that, and it is a good plan.
i think we're still awaiting some impartial execution of that plan.

 

[Davidnic]

So the laity don't need bishops, they can interpret divisions and heresies for themselves. They can work together as a community on issues of doctrine.

That is not what I said. This is a webforum so the community will, of course, work on areas where the might be a bit of lack of clarity. But in the vast majority the Bishops are clear. Things like calling the Pope a heretic or that women should be priests are clear cut.

 

[Davidnic]

we keep hearing that, and it is a good plan.
i think we're still awaiting some impartial execution of that plan.

If you have a problem take it to the MSC