Secret CIA assessment says Russia was trying to help Trump win White House

rjs330

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Do you honestly believe that without the DNC's dubious actions, Bernie would have been the nominee?

What are you basing that on?
Are you saying somehow that because Bernie may not have been the nominee that somehow lessens the scumminess of what they did to him? They cheated and rigged the game against him. It wasn't just about getting information out against Bernie. It was actual manipulation of the process.

That in no way excuses what the Russians may have done. But it does show the hypocrisy.
 
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wing2000

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I don't care about the russians, I do however like Wikileaks and find it very curious that when Wikileaks was leaking information that was damaging to Bush that was ok.

The hypocrisy is hilarious in this case. Nobody is even trying to claim that the information is false anymore. It's all griping about Wikileaks telling us the crooked things that the DNC has done to get Hillary elected.

If I understand you correctly, you like Wikileaks are fine with the damage caused regardless of who is President? I really could care less about the DNC...but I find it interesting that Putin chose to keep the RNC dirt under wraps....at least for now.
 
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bhsmte

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If I understand you correctly, you like Wikileaks are fine with the damage caused regardless of who is President? I really could care less about the DNC...but I find it interesting that Putin chose to keep the RNC dirt under wraps....at least for now.

Clinton was a heavily flawed candidate before any of the WikiLeaks stuff. In a national election, Clinton has not fared well against those presenting themselves as "change" candidates; Obama came out of nowhere to upset her in 08 and Bernie got much more support than anyone thought he would and even beat Clinton in some of the critical rust belt states.

Clinton is the poster child for establishment/elitist politics and even many democrats view her in this light. People were fed up with establishment politics, which is why she lost and she also happens to be a horrible political campaigner, with a personality that doesn't engage people.
 
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wing2000

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Clinton was a heavily flawed candidate before any of the WikiLeaks stuff. In a national election, Clinton has not fared well against those presenting themselves as "change" candidates; Obama came out of nowhere to upset her in 08 and Bernie got much more support than anyone thought he would and even beat Clinton in some of the critical rust belt states.

Clinton is the poster child for establishment/elitist politics and even many democrats view her in this light. People were fed up with establishment politics, which is why she lost and she also happens to be a horrible political campaigner, with a personality that doesn't engage people.

Sure. But if your point is she would have lost without the inetentional manipulation of Wikilieaks data....I am not sure I agree. The election was simply to close to say one way or the other....
 
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bhsmte

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Sure. But if your point is she would have lost without the inetentional manipulation of Wikilieaks data....I am not sure I agree. The election was simply to close to say one way or the other....

We will never know whether the wiki stuff impacted the results. What we do know are the number one exit poll issue was voters wanting someone who could bring change and that candidate was never Clinton with or without the wiki stuff.

The other thing is this, was the information released by wiki accurate? If it was, it is really no different than a liberal or conservative news source, digging up information about one candidate and releasing it to the public, just as news outlets do all the time.
 
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SteveB28

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We will never know whether the wiki stuff impacted the results. What we do know are the number one exit poll issue was voters wanting someone who could bring change and that candidate was never Clinton with or without the wiki stuff.

The other thing is this, was the information released by wiki accurate? If it was, it is really no different than a liberal or conservative news source, digging up information about one candidate and releasing it to the public, just as news outlets do all the time.

The ends justify the means....?



.
 
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bhsmte

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The ends justify the means....?



.

Did the ends justify the means with the DNC collaborating to crater Sander's campaign?

Everyone who has a public voice, has the potential of influence in elections. Whether it be a news network that focuses on one negative fact about a candidate more than another, celebrities touting their picks in the public eye and other politicians telling us all how bad one candidate is and how good the other one is.

Information comes at us from all angles and if information is deemed accurate, it is up to everyone to determine how they weigh the information.
 
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Jack of Spades

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Did the ends justify the means with the DNC collaborating to crater Sander's campaign?

Ahum, that's a bit flawed comparison. For comparsion:

US army armored division A damaged roads while having war games. Another US army armored division B didn't damage the roads while having war games.

Now you have a Russian armored division that was never invited doing war games inside the US and it's arguable whether they damaged the roads or not. Does that mean that the Russian armored division was not as big bad guy as the armored division A was?
 
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SteveB28

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Did the ends justify the means with the DNC collaborating to crater Sander's campaign?

Everyone who has a public voice, has the potential of influence in elections. Whether it be a news network that focuses on one negative fact about a candidate more than another, celebrities touting their picks in the public eye and other politicians telling us all how bad one candidate is and how good the other one is.

Information comes at us from all angles and if information is deemed accurate, it is up to everyone to determine how they weigh the information.

Indeed. If the reports, courtesy of the leaked documents, are correct, the Democrats favoured one of their candidates over the other. I suppose that it could be argued that at least such action was 'in house' - here was a political party charting their own course, rather than having it imposed upon them by some outside, foreign actor.

And the 'flawed, unpopular candidate' argument simply doesn't hold water. The bottom line is that Mrs Clinton won the nation convincingly, receiving almost as many votes as President Obama in his last re-election. 3 million more people wanted her to be president over Trump. She certainly was popular enough.

Now, it can very reasonably be argued that her campaign made tactical errors in failing to concentrate their efforts to a greater degree in those narrowly lost states. But that's tactics, it's not a measure of her popularity, particularly when she wins the total vote count so convincingly.

And the impact of the Russian interference cannot be dismissed here. Could their selective release of leaked documents have been enough to turn those one-in-a-hundred votes in those 3 or 4 states? Highly likely. Flip those 70,000 or so votes the other way and you'd all be touting Mrs Clinton as being every bit as successful as President Obama was.
 
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bhsmte

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Indeed. If the reports, courtesy of the leaked documents, are correct, the Democrats favoured one of their candidates over the other. I suppose that it could be argued that at least such action was 'in house' - here was a political party charting their own course, rather than having it imposed upon them by some outside, foreign actor.

And the 'flawed, unpopular candidate' argument simply doesn't hold water. The bottom line is that Mrs Clinton won the nation convincingly, receiving almost as many votes as President Obama in his last re-election. 3 million more people wanted her to be president over Trump. She certainly was popular enough.

Now, it can very reasonably be argued that her campaign made tactical errors in failing to concentrate their efforts to a greater degree in those narrowly lost states. But that's tactics, it's not a measure of her popularity, particularly when she wins the total vote count so convincingly.

And the impact of the Russian interference cannot be dismissed here. Could their selective release of leaked documents have been enough to turn those one-in-a-hundred votes in those 3 or 4 states? Highly likely. Flip those 70,000 or so votes the other way and you'd all be touting Mrs Clinton as being every bit as successful as President Obama was.

I will say this one more time.

No one campaigned to win the popular vote. Clinton spent most of her time in the states she had to win and she lost those states and fewer people in those states who voted for Obama, were willing to vote for her.

Clinton lost, because fewer; Hispanics, blacks and women voted for her, compared to Obama.

This, is reality.
 
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Jack of Spades

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I will say this one more time.

No one campaigned to win the popular vote. Clinton spent most of her time in the states she had to win and she lost those states and fewer people in those states who voted for Obama, were willing to vote for her.

Clinton lost, because fewer; Hispanics, blacks and women voted for her, compared to Obama.

This, is reality.

In an election so close, every reason sounds like the ultimate reason for both defeat and victory. Nobody will ever know what the ultimate truth was about "what if", but it is within the range of possibilities that the Russian influence was decisive. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but it's not impossible that it was.

It gave an advantage to Trump, decisive or not.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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And the 'flawed, unpopular candidate' argument simply doesn't hold water. The bottom line is that Mrs Clinton won the nation convincingly, receiving almost as many votes as President Obama in his last re-election. 3 million more people wanted her to be president over Trump. She certainly was popular enough.

The bottom line is that this is irrelevant. Clinton's votes were in the wrong places. The political demography of the US is essentially pockets of blue in a sea of red. Densely populated pockets, to be sure, but that doesn't win elections in a federal system, be they presidential or congressional. Winning the popular vote by piling up large majorities in California, New York and Illinois doesn't lead to victory on the national level.
 
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SteveB28

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The bottom line is that this is irrelevant. Clinton's votes were in the wrong places. The political demography of the US is essentially pockets of blue in a sea of red. Densely populated pockets, to be sure, but that doesn't win elections in a federal system, be they presidential or congressional. Winning the popular vote by piling up large majorities in California, New York and Illinois doesn't lead to victory on the national level.

I understand how your system works. And, as I said above, tactical errors, rather than issues of overall popularity, may have cost Mrs Clinton. But those tactical errors would have been compounded by the negative impact of the pro-Trump Russian involvement.

And you surely have to think about the quality of a 'democracy' that intentionally devalues a person's vote by a factor of 5, simply because of where they choose to live?



.
 
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bhsmte

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In an election so close, every reason sounds like the ultimate reason for both defeat and victory. Nobody will ever know what the ultimate truth was about "what if", but it is within the range of possibilities that the Russian influence was decisive. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but it's not impossible that it was.

It gave an advantage to Trump, decisive or not.

In regards to who voted where, there is no what if, there is only; what actually took place.

In the states that mattered and both candidates spent the most time in, fewer; blacks, women and Hispanics voted for Clinton, compared to Obama. If she would have even gotten close to Obama with this group of people, she would have won. Trump didn't win because of some huge amount of white vote, he even got more minority vote than most thought he would.

Now, why the folks didn't vote for Clinton could be for a variety of reasons, but the number one exist poll reason of importance was clear; people wanted change.
 
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Jack of Spades

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In regards to who voted where, there is no what if, there is only; what actually took place.

Not correct. There is also Why it took place.

Now, why the folks didn't vote for Clinton could be for a variety of reasons, but the number one exist poll reason of importance was clear; people wanted change.

Sure. The argument never was that Russian interfiering was a major reason for the respective support of either candidate overall. The argument was that as all the other factors combined produced so close result, the one additional factor, Russian interfierance, could have been critical.

But that's not the important part here. Critical or not, it was Russia tampering with American elections, which is pretty close to an act of war, a violation of American sovereignity.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Putin The Christian Protector apparently persecutes Christians for spreading their faith:

Russia's Newest Law: No Evangelizing Outside of Church

Despite prayers and protests from religious leaders and human rights advocates, the Kremlin announced Putin’s approval yesterday. The amendments, including laws against sharing faith in homes, online, or anywhere but recognized church buildings, go into effect July 20.

Russia's Ban on Evangelism Is Now in Effect

The law is “the most draconian anti-religion bill to be proposed in Russia since Nikita Khrushchev promised to eliminate Christianity in the Soviet Union.”

The requirement to practice religion only in registered places of worship creates a Catch-22 for Russian Protestants, who are often blocked by the state from obtaining property on which to build those houses of worship, Pentecostal Union deputy bishop Konstantin Bendas told Forum 18.

Christian Leader Arrested in Russia as Law Banning Evangelism Outside of Churches Goes Into Effect


The Moscow Times reports that Sergei Zhuravlyov, a representative of the Ukrainian Reformed Orthodox Church of Christ the Savior, was arrested earlier this month while he was preaching before the St. Petersburg Messianic Jewish community, and was charged with violating a provision of the law that bans illegal missionary activity.
The church does not save people Jesus saves people. Even Muslims can be saved but they can not be saved without Jesus. Even the worst of terrorists can come to a saving knowledge of the truth.
 
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Jack of Spades

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The church does not save people Jesus saves people. Even Muslims can be saved but they can not be saved without Jesus. Even the worst of terrorists can come to a saving knowledge of the truth.

Did you read the post you are commenting to? Your answer seems to have nothing to do with it.

The 'Christian protector' Putin has just legally banned holding a prayer meeting in a private house. This is Christian persecution by Putin, for real.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Trump didn't win because of some huge amount of white vote, he even got more minority vote than most thought he would.
Trump won because he did not tell anyone what he was doing. He even went up in Maine to get ONE electoral vote because in the worst of scenarios he would have only had 169 and he would need one more vote. Hillary had many ways to win and they announced every one of them. It is like a chess game where you have to protect yourself from 12 different moves.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Jack of Spades

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