GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ?

[AbbaLove]

Any Gentile who receives Messiah Yeshua as Savior becomes an Israelite and partaker of the New Covenant

Are you referring to a timeline beginning from 1948-49 when Israel again became a recognized State/Nation to present-day? Assume you're including Arab Christian Believers in Jesus (e.g. Coptic, Catholics, Protestants) who have received Christ Jesus as Savior).

OR, (becomes an Israelite) only Messianic Arab Believers in Mashiach Y'shua who are "Torah Observant" (e.g. Lovers of Israel; Observing/honoring Shabbat; Familiar with Hebrew calendar; Commemorating Feasts of the LORD).

 

[gadar perets]

Are you referring to a timeline beginning from 1948-49 when Israel again became a recognized State/Nation to present-day? Assume you're including Arab Christian Believers in Jesus (e.g. Coptic, Catholics, Protestants) who have received Christ Jesus as Savior).

OR, (becomes an Israelite) only Messianic Arab Believers in Mashiach Y'shua who are "Torah Observant" (e.g. Lovers of Israel; Observing/honoring Shabbat; Familiar with Hebrew calendar; Commemorating Feasts of the LORD).

I am referring to becoming Israelites in a spiritual sense the same way we become the seed of Abraham in a spiritual sense. Yeshua has seed (Isaiah 53:10) and Yeshua was an Israelite. Therefore, as his seed, we are Israelites as well (in a spiritual sense).

 

[danny ski]

First, you are not in a position to say I don't become an Israelite since you don't belong to Yeshua. Second, I don't reject Torah. I support Torah openly in my posts far more than most on this forum.

Being an Israelite has NOTHING to do with an opinion on who is or is not a messiah. It never was and it never will be. The anointed ones were and always will be secondary to what is at the core of Israel(the people). So, yeah, I can say with certainty that accepting an individual does not make one Jewish
nor does it necessarily disqualify one. Why am I so certain? Because the Torah does not hinge on any individual.

 

[gadar perets]

Being an Israelite has NOTHING to do with an opinion on who is or is not a messiah. It never was and it never will be.

I totally agree. Opinions are worthless as is the opinion you gave that I am not an Israelite. The spirit of Messiah dwelling within the believer is what matters and is what makes me an Israelite whether you believe that or not.

The anointed ones were and always will be secondary to what is at the core of Israel(the people). So, yeah, I can say with certainty that accepting an individual does not make one Jewish
nor does it necessarily disqualify one. Why am I so certain? Because the Torah does not hinge on any individual.

The Torah does not hinge on one person, but one person embodies Torah, Messiah Yeshua. I have the living Torah living in me. He has circumcised my heart and taught me to obey Torah as he did.

May I ask what kind of documentation you have proving you are a descendant of Israel?

 

[danny ski]

I totally agree. Opinions are worthless as is the opinion you gave that I am not an Israelite. The spirit of Messiah dwelling within the believer is what matters and is what makes me an Israelite whether you believe that or not.


The Torah does not hinge on one person, but one person embodies Torah, Messiah Yeshua. I have the living Torah living in me. He has circumcised my heart and taught me to obey Torah as he did.

May I ask what kind of documentation you have proving you are a descendant of Israel?

Well, we, who actually have the say who is and who isn't one of us, disagree as the identity of a messiah has zero bearing on belonging to the "tribe". It's unhealthy and historically proven that chasing messiahs is mostly a bad idea. You're, of course, free to pursue any way you see correct, just keep in mind that it's a strictly one way street.

 

[gadar perets]

Well, we, who actually have the say who is and who isn't one of us, disagree as the identity of a messiah has zero bearing on belonging to the "tribe".

You are talking about knowing Messiah's identity and I am talking about having the true Messiah living within. As for your use of "us", how do you know you are really a descendant of the patriarch Israel? How do you know you are not descended from the Edomites, Khazars, or even from one of the nations that were never expelled from the land?

It's unhealthy and historically proven that chasing messiahs is mostly a bad idea. You're, of course, free to pursue any way you see correct, just keep in mind that it's a strictly one way street.

That is what the adversary would have you believe. Yes, false Messiah's existed, but that is no reason to stop looking for the true one. Will you not "chase" the true one when he comes or will you stick to the advice you are giving me and reject him? Sounds like the story of the boy who cried "wolf!" I have found the true one, Yeshua. Yes, receiving him is "a strictly one way street", but it heads directly to the Father in the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[danny ski]

You are talking about knowing Messiah's identity and I am talking about having the true Messiah living within. As for your use of "us", how do you know you are really a descendant of the patriarch Israel? How do you know you are not descended from the Edomites, Khazars, or even from one of the nations that were never expelled from the land?


That is what the adversary would have you believe. Yes, false Messiah's existed, but that is no reason to stop looking for the true one. Will you not "chase" the true one when he comes or will you stick to the advice you are giving me and reject him? Sounds like the story of the boy who cried "wolf!" I have found the true one, Yeshua. Yes, receiving him is "a strictly one way street", but it heads directly to the Father in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I never said that messiah will not appear, one day. All I'm saying is that messiah has a few specific tasks to accomplish, like gathering of the exiles and world peace, etc. None of which, quite obviously, has been accomplished. In any case, to paraphrase Paul, messiah or no messiah, what's important is following the commandments. Seeking the "kingdom of heaven" and a messiah who will get you to that magical place is not consistent with the teaching of the Torah. Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm Jewish. Unless my parents lied to me, and their parents before that, and their parents before that, and their neighbors in a shtetl and their Rabbis, and my Rabbi. Would be a shame, really, because it would have meant that the Germans murdered most of them by mistake.

 

[gadar perets]

I never said that messiah will not appear, one day. All I'm saying is that messiah has a few specific tasks to accomplish, like gathering of the exiles and world peace, etc. None of which, quite obviously, has been accomplished.

Yeshua will accomplish the remaining messianic prophecies at his second coming.

In any case, to paraphrase Paul, messiah or no messiah, what's important is following the commandments.

What is important is having our sins forgiven through the ultimate atoning sacrifice of Yeshua and being redeemed from death. Keeping the commandments is the fruit of Yeshua's saving work.

Seeking the "kingdom of heaven" and a messiah who will get you to that magical place is not consistent with the teaching of the Torah.

The Kingdom of Heaven is not a magical place, but Yahweh's rule over all through His Son Yeshua. As Daniel 2:44-45 reveals, the Kingdom of Heaven will come down (with Yeshua as its King) and destroy all earthly kingdoms. This Kingdom will rule the earth for 1,000 years until sin and death are totally destroyed.

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm Jewish. Unless my parents lied to me, and their parents before that, and their parents before that, and their neighbors in a shtetl and their Rabbis, and my Rabbi. Would be a shame, really, because it would have meant that the Germans murdered most of them by mistake.

My parents told me my ancestors were Italian. My ancestors probably did the same with their children and so on. However, somewhere along the line, the history of how my ancestors got to Italy in the first place was lost. Perhaps they migrated from Israel and I'm really Jewish. The point is, how things transpired over thousands of years can easily get distorted. Hopefully your ancestry traces back to the patriarch Israel. However, if your far distant ancestors were really Edomites, for example, they could have lied about being Jewish to have a better life among other Israelites.

Look at the example of what happened in Ezra 2:61-62. These people claimed to be of priestly lineage, but their names were not found in the registry. So they were kept out of the priesthood. How much more could such things happen after the registries were lost. Had there been no registry at that time, those people would have been accepted as priests.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

It would be very hard if not impossible for anyone to try and join a Jewish community just by saying “Hey, were Jews too.” People try it all the time these days and we figure it out very quickly. It was just as easy to tell back in the day.

 

[gadar perets]

It would be very hard if not impossible for anyone to try and join a Jewish community just by saying “Hey, were Jews too.” People try it all the time these days and we figure it out very quickly. It was just as easy to tell back in the day.

Hopefully you are correct, but if not, it really doesn't matter. The Almighty has made a way for both Jew and Gentile to become one new man through Messiah Yeshua. These new creatures He is creating to populate His Kingdom on earth enter that Kingdom by faith in Almighty YHWH and in Messiah Yeshua, not by lineage.

 

[danny ski]

Yeshua will accomplish the remaining messianic prophecies at his second coming.


What is important is having our sins forgiven through the ultimate atoning sacrifice of Yeshua and being redeemed from death. Keeping the commandments is the fruit of Yeshua's saving work.


The Kingdom of Heaven is not a magical place, but Yahweh's rule over all through His Son Yeshua. As Daniel 2:44-45 reveals, the Kingdom of Heaven will come down (with Yeshua as its King) and destroy all earthly kingdoms. This Kingdom will rule the earth for 1,000 years until sin and death are totally destroyed.


My parents told me my ancestors were Italian. My ancestors probably did the same with their children and so on. However, somewhere along the line, the history of how my ancestors got to Italy in the first place was lost. Perhaps they migrated from Israel and I'm really Jewish. The point is, how things transpired over thousands of years can easily get distorted. Hopefully your ancestry traces back to the patriarch Israel. However, if your far distant ancestors were really Edomites, for example, they could have lied about being Jewish to have a better life among other Israelites.

Look at the example of what happened in Ezra 2:61-62. These people claimed to be of priestly lineage, but their names were not found in the registry. So they were kept out of the priesthood. How much more could such things happen after the registries were lost. Had there been no registry at that time, those people would have been accepted as priests.

Keeping the commandments is not a fruit of anybody's saving work. It's a choice. A choice we were and are to make every day. Our relationship with Gd, as described in the Torah, is based on the individual choices. That's the most basic and one of the first lessons of the Torah. As one very wise individual once taught me " master the basics first and you'll never depart from clarity".

 

[visionary]

Keeping the commandments is not a fruit of anybody's saving work. It's a choice. A choice we were and are to make every day. Our relationship with Gd, as described in the Torah, is based on the individual choices. That's the most basic and one of the first lessons of the Torah. As one very wise individual once taught me " master the basics first and you'll never depart from clarity".

And that is why "Sabbath keeping is a practice of faith".

 

[danny ski]

And that is why "Sabbath keeping is a practice of faith".

No, not faith. Obedience.

 

[gadar perets]

Keeping the commandments is not a fruit of anybody's saving work. It's a choice. A choice we were and are to make every day. Our relationship with Gd, as described in the Torah, is based on the individual choices. That's the most basic and one of the first lessons of the Torah. As one very wise individual once taught me " master the basics first and you'll never depart from clarity".

"KEEPING" the commandments is not a choice. "CHOOSING" to keep the commandments is a choice. Why do you think Israel was so disobedient throughout their history? They "chose" to keep the commandments when they said, "All that YHWH hath said will we do, and be obedient." Yet, they failed time and time again. Why? Because they were a carnal people trying to keep external laws. Through Messiah, we enter the New Covenant whereby the Torah is written internally (Jeremiah 31:33) and the Spirit of YHWH indwells us (Ezekiel 36:26) enabling us to not only choose to keep the commandments, but actually keep them. Through the saving work of Messiah Yeshua we bear the fruit of obedience.

 

[visionary]

No, not faith. Obedience.

Obedience is a show of faith.

 

[danny ski]

"KEEPING" the commandments is not a choice. "CHOOSING" to keep the commandments is a choice. Why do you think Israel was so disobedient throughout their history? They "chose" to keep the commandments when they said, "All that YHWH hath said will we do, and be obedient." Yet, they failed time and time again. Why? Because they were a carnal people trying to keep external laws. Through Messiah, we enter the New Covenant whereby the Torah is written internally (Jeremiah 31:33) and the Spirit of YHWH indwells us (Ezekiel 36:26) enabling us to not only choose to keep the commandments, but actually keep them. Through the saving work of Messiah Yeshua we bear the fruit of obedience.

LOL! I'm yet to meet any individual who has the Torah written in his/her heart. BTW, nice stretch in connecting messiah to Jeremiah's verse.

 

[gadar perets]

LOL! I'm yet to meet any individual who has the Torah written in his/her heart. BTW, nice stretch in connecting messiah to Jeremiah's verse.

Torah in the heart does not mean one can never break it. That is why the Spirit had to also be placed within a person. Yet, even the indwelling Spirit of YHWH is sometimes not enough to stop a person from sinning, especially since the Spirit will not force a person to obey. That is why New Covenant believers are admonished to walk in the Spirit and not yield to the lust of the flesh. As long as we are dwelling in fleshly bodies, war between the Spirit and the flesh will be waged. When we lose a battle, we grieve the Spirit within. Sin (breaking Torah) will continue to exist until after the Millennium. However, victory over sin, for the most part, is available to all New covenant believers today. Sin should not have dominion over us in that we yield to it on a regular basis (as a lifestyle). We will occasionally slip up. Yet, even when we slip up, there is no condemnation upon us because Yeshua already paid the price for our sin and death with his own life. He took the death penalty of sin upon himself.

 

[danny ski]

Torah in the heart does not mean one can never break it. That is why the Spirit had to also be placed within a person. Yet, even the indwelling Spirit of YHWH is sometimes not enough to stop a person from sinning, especially since the Spirit will not force a person to obey. That is why New Covenant believers are admonished to walk in the Spirit and not yield to the lust of the flesh. As long as we are dwelling in fleshly bodies, war between the Spirit and the flesh will be waged. When we lose a battle, we grieve the Spirit within. Sin (breaking Torah) will continue to exist until after the Millennium. However, victory over sin, for the most part, is available to all New covenant believers today. Sin should not have dominion over us in that we yield to it on a regular basis (as a lifestyle). We will occasionally slip up. Yet, even when we slip up, there is no condemnation upon us because Yeshua already paid the price for our sin and death with his own life. He took the death penalty of sin upon himself.

ITorah written in the heart does not mean sinless life. It just means knowing the Torah by heart and how it applies, without the need for study. As for sin, all sin. The very definition of a righteous person is one who stumbles seven times, but gets up again. That's, BTW, what Gd told Cain- do better and you'll be received. No need for anything else or anybody else. As it is written about sin in the Torah - " you can rule over it".

 

[gadar perets]

That's, BTW, what Gd told Cain- do better and you'll be received. No need for anything else or anybody else. As it is written about sin in the Torah - " you can rule over it".

If there was no need for anything else, then why did Israel need to sacrifice animals? If there was no need for anybody else, then why do we need YHWH? Obviously, based on Genesis 6:11-13, mankind could not rule over sin. Israel in the flesh obviously needed something else or someone else since they had such a hard time ruling over sin. Not even David could rule over sin. All men have sinned (except Yeshua). Yeshua fulfilled "you can rule over it" for all of us who could not. It is because of his victorious life over sin that he qualified to take the sins of the world upon himself (including yours) and paid for our redemption with his own life.

 

[gadar perets]

The very definition of a righteous person is one who stumbles seven times, but gets up again.

That is not the definition of a righteous person. That is what a righteous person does. Yet, even though there are righteous people, their righteousness is not good enough to live forever in Yahweh's Kingdom. That is why the following verses talk about a righteousness from the Almighty Himself.

Isa 45:25 In YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHWH, and their righteousness is of me, says YHWH.

Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in YHWH, my soul shall be joyful in my Elohim; for He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Hosea 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek YHWH, till He come and rain righteousness upon you. ​