GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ?

[danny ski]

Circumcision is a work. Jesus himself compares it to healing. If its permissable to circumcise on the Sabbath, how much more to heal the entire man on the Sabbath?

If therefore (the command for) circumcision is greater than the (command to observe the) Sabbath, and the requirement for (physical) circumcision is no longer obligatory because it is fulfilled in Christ, how much moreso is the Sabbath fulfilled in Christ (and non obligatory)?

This is not to say the Sabbath is not still blessed, or that it is good to rest on the day. But it is to say our righteousness is through Christ, and neither our imperfect observance of the Sabbath nor any law can make us more righteous than believers already are through Christ.

Circumcision is most certainly not classified under work(melachah). It never was any more than walking to shul on Saturday. Circumcision is a commandment. An EVERLASTING commandment. Nobody has the right to change it under any circumstances. Anybody who does, stands directly in the opposition to what our Gd commanded.

 

[gadar perets]

[staff edited]
The only thing Ezekiel 20:12 & Nehemiah 9:13-14 prove is that the Sabbath was given to Israel and that Israel did not know about the Sabbath. Why? Because they were slaves in Egypt for hundreds of years and were not permitted to rest. The Sabbath was lost to them. Yahweh reintroduced it to them.


Finally, we agree. Since the Sabbath was made on day 7, that is when it was given to man. That the Sabbath was made on day 7 in undeniable based on Exodus 20:11.


Actually, verse 6 says, "But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter". "Serve" what in newness of the spirit?

Romans 7:25 - I thank God through Yeshua Messiah our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
​

It is the spiritual mind that is subject to the Law of God, but the carnal mind is not.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
​

As for the Mosaic Law (Law of God) being the same as the law of sin & death;

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.​

Thanks. BTW, it was her adultery, not mine.

I agree. However, Paul continues in chapter 8 to teach us that through the indwelling spirit we can fulfill the righteousness of the Law. We can now be subject to the Law because we are no longer living in the flesh, but in the Spirit. As Ezekiel said concerning the new spirit of the New Covenant;

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. ​

 

[gadar perets]

From Jeremiah 31

No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD.

From John 14:26

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

From Ezekiel 36:26

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone [a heart desiring to obey stone laws for blessing] and give you a heart of flesh [a heart that listens to the Holy Spirits voice personally].

None of these verses say God's Word is written on our hearts. Only Torah is written there as part of the NC.

What is Torah? It is Gods instruction. This is no longer external instruction, where we each teach each other, but internal instruction, where we walk in love. His instruction personally on our heart. i.e. those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires (Romans 8:5).

Torah is indeed God's instruction, but Torah is the "Law of YHWH/Law of Moses" spoken of throughout the OT. So when Jeremiah says "Torah" will be written on hearts, he means the Law of YHWH. Throughout the Book of Jeremiah, Torah ALWAYS means the Law of YHWH.

 

[visionary]

The only Law Jeremiah knew when he wrote that it would be placed in the heart is the Law of God.

 

[visionary]

[staff edited]
Like God is inconsistent regarding the Sabbath, and consistent with the rest of the nine commandments. It is only in the minds of those who rebel against the Sabbath that we hear such things.

 

[jamespyles]

Part of the problem with invoking the New Covenant language we see in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36 is that those promises A) were directed at Judah and Israel, not the nations, and B) haven't reached fruition yet. If the Word of God has indeed been fully written on our hearts, why aren't we sin-free. If this is the New Covenant era in all its glory, I want my money back (that last bit was a joke).

It would take a long time to explain how I think all this works, but God's promises to Israel won't be completely fulfilled until Messiah returns, and then once he does, he redeems Israel. The rest of the world, that is, the Jesus believing people of the nations, receive the blessings of those promises of redemption to Israel only because of our faith and the mercy of God, not because we're actually named participants in the New Covenant.

I see people writing about these passages as if they've already taken place. Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant with his first coming, but he only cracked the door, so to speak. It was like his promissory note or downpayment to us, or rather to Israel, that his followers received the Holy Spirit and the promise of the resurrection (as evidenced by his own resurrection) so that we'll continue our devotion and await his return.

We have a lot to look forward to.

As far as the original topic of this discussion thread, I've already said my piece about that.

 

[visionary]

You know what gets me, it is this claim "Jesus set us free from His law with His blood" Since He has been since the beginning, and if His whole purpose was to "do away" with His Law, He could have just cancelled it without any more bloodshed including His own.

 

[jamespyles]

You know what gets me, it is this claim "Jesus set us free from His law with His blood" Since He has been since the beginning, and if His whole purpose was to "do away" with His Law, He could have just cancelled it without any more bloodshed including His own.

My opinion is that when non-Jews outnumbered Jews in the nascent "Messianic" Judaism of ancient days, the Gentiles needed to reinvent their interpretation of scripture to favor non-Jews (there's a long explanation as to why they would do this). Over the long centuries, that reinvention has become canonical and "Gospel" if you'll pardon the expression, thus, to question the traditions of the Church sounds much like questioning scripture itself. If we can set aside nearly twenty centuries of that tradition and look at the Bible with fresh eyes, we might seem a different image indeed.

 

[jamespyles]

[staff edited]
Well, no. Sorry to be a pain, but since covenants are additive and older ones are not replaced by newer ones, I can't see how that's possible for Israel, the Jewish people. It might be more important in the context of this discussion thread to ask if all, part, or any of the covenants apply to non-Jewish Christians.

I could write for days on this topic, but I already have. I don't know if I posted the link here already, but here's my opinion on the nature of Gentiles and the New Covenant: Briefly Revisiting Gentiles and the New Covenant. I expanded on this earlier this year in The Non-Covenant Relationship with God (a blog post that stirred up quite a bit of dust). And just because you mentioned it, Old Wine Made New.

I don't doubt that I represent a minority opinion, but I believe my viewpoint has the advantage of not having to patch together bits and pieces of the Bible like a quilt, but rather, treats the Bible as a single, unified document about a single, unified God.

 

[gadar perets]

[staff edited]
Yahweh created man on day 6. He then rested on day 7 thereby making the Sabbath Day. He then blessed this day that He made and set it apart from the other six (six work days, one rest day - the 7th day). There was no Sabbath day on day 6. It was "made" on day 7. It was not "made" when Yahweh gave it to Israel. It was "made" on day 7 so Adam and all mankind could rest after six days of work. The fulfillment of the Sabbath can be seen in the timeline of earth's history (6,000 years of work on earth and 1,000 years of rest during the millennium.

 

[gadar perets]

Part of the problem with invoking the New Covenant language we see in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36 is that those promises A) were directed at Judah and Israel, not the nations

Any Gentile who receives Messiah Yeshua as Savior becomes an Israelite and partaker of the New Covenant.

If Jewish believers are not living under the New Covenant now, are they still living under the Old Covenant? What covenant are Gentile believers living under?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I enjoyed discussing this with you all and pray God blesses you. Maybe I'm a little slow, but I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to debate these things in a "Messianic" forum and have been asked to refrain from contributing.

Peace.

 

[BukiRob]

Thanks for your reply...for the record the 10 no longer apply for the believers

Based upon what? I will side with what the Messiah himself has to say on the matter... but I know you believe what has been taught by the gentile church.....

This whole teaching of the 10 does not apply to you is a new (in in GROSS error) teaching. 40 years ago NO evangelical church believed or taught such a thing.

 

[BukiRob]

Yes I believe Jesus is Torah and I also believe he fulfilled Torah for me ...and the laws I obey are his laws ... not to enter into the old covenant but to enter into a new covenant where his righteousness is enough for me ... in that I put my full trust ...

See, what you are pointing to is a merit system and that was never the purpose of the Torah. You and I left to our own devices are INCAPABLE of loving each other or G-d in a manner that brings glory to the Father. Paul tells us that it is by the washing of the word (TORAH) that we have our minds renewed. It is IMPERATIVE that when you see scripture speaking about "the word" the writer is speaking about TORAH for it was at the time of the writing THE WORD.

We are called to be holy correct? What does Paul call the Torah? He calls it HOLY. For if it is holy how then can one say it is not for me yet I am to be holy? Such a thing is not possible.

I hear believers say "I dont need the law because I am led by the Spirit." Messiah himself declared that the Spirit would lead you into all truth... OT in many places states the the Torah IS TRUTH.... for indeed if you ARE being led by the Spirit he will lead you to where the truth if found.... IN THE TORAH.

For YEARS I believed the grace only teaching that is found in the evangelical church. But when I studied scripture I found far too many contradictory statements in scripture that had to be distorted and twisted to fit into that teaching...... It was only when out of sheer frustration that I prayed "Show me the truth and where ever it takes me I WILL GO." AND I was willing to lay aside all that I had been "taught" that I began to see scripture like a flower blooming and open up.... To, me, this is so clear and its plain as the nose on your face.

 

[jamespyles]

Any Gentile who receives Messiah Yeshua as Savior becomes an Israelite and partaker of the New Covenant.

If Jewish believers are not living under the New Covenant now, are they still living under the Old Covenant? What covenant are Gentile believers living under?

I just answered a question about what covenant we all are living under now. Technically, we are still in the times of the Sinai covenant, but when Rav Yeshua came, lived, died, and was resurrected, he "cracked the door," so to speak, on the New Covenant times. The New Covenant has been slowly emerging into our world ever sense but won't reach fruition until Messiah's return.

I discuss this more in detail in this post in another discussion thread.

I don't believe for a split second that the New Covenant makes Gentiles into Jews or somehow allows us to co-opt Israel. I know this will be hard to swallow and I know we'll end up "agreeing to disagree," but I presented my views on how it's possible for Gentiles to participate in the New Covenant when we are not named members here: The Non-Covenant Relationship with God.

 

[danny ski]

Any Gentile who receives Messiah Yeshua as Savior becomes an Israelite and partaker of the New Covenant.

If Jewish believers are not living under the New Covenant now, are they still living under the Old Covenant? What covenant are Gentile believers living under?

I can assure you, you do not become an Israelite. If you did, you would not reject the Torah.

 

[gadar perets]

I can assure you, you do not become an Israelite. If you did, you would not reject the Torah.

First, you are not in a position to say I don't become an Israelite since you don't belong to Yeshua. Second, I don't reject Torah. I support Torah openly in my posts far more than most on this forum.

 

[gadar perets]

I don't believe for a split second that the New Covenant makes Gentiles into Jews or somehow allows us to co-opt Israel. I know this will be hard to swallow and I know we'll end up "agreeing to disagree," but I presented my views on how it's possible for Gentiles to participate in the New Covenant when we are not named members here: The Non-Covenant Relationship with God.

Do you believe that a Gentile that receives Yeshua becomes a seed of Abraham?

 

[AbbaLove]

Any Gentile who receives Messiah Yeshua as Savior becomes an Israelite and partaker of the New Covenant

Well over 100,000 Arab Christian citizens of Israel believe that Yeshua is Israel's Messiah.

"About 80% of Christian residents of Israel are Arab Christians, who are historically bound with neighboring Lebanese, Syrian and Palestinian Christians. A community of 1,000 Coptic Christians also exists in Israel, being registered as "Arab Christians", though their Arab identity is disputed. Christian Arabs are one of the most educated groups in Israel. Maariv has described the Christian Arabs sector as 'the most successful in the education system'."​

 

[AbbaLove]

Do you believe that a Gentile that receives Yeshua becomes a seed of Abraham?

YES!