Should flag burners lose citizenship?

[Speedwell]

As I said earlier, destroying the symbol of the nation is expressing a desire to destroy the nation. For those who see burning as "speech" this is clearly what such speech is saying.

Or it is disposing of a damaged flag in the proper manner, a flag which the protester believes has been symbolically damaged by an unjust war or some other criminal enterprise on which the nation has embarked.

 

[Chesterton]

Or it is disposing of a damaged flag in the proper manner, a flag which the protester believes has been symbolically damaged by an unjust war or some other criminal enterprise on which the nation has embarked.

No.

 

[Speedwell]

No.

Who are you to decide whether an act of protest is patriotic or not?

 

[Aryeh]

Acting on it illegally I'd say. Someone could, in theory, run for office under the platform of destroying the US government and that should be protected. Or petition their congress members to work toward taking down the Constitutional Republic.

Right. I just chose the words "threatening" because even speech can be unprotected if it is deemed threatening (e.g. fighting words.) Not all speech is protected.

But, yes even thought crimes are supposed to be protected under the constitution.

 

[Chesterton]

Who are you to decide whether an act of protest is patriotic or not?

If a flag has been symbolically damaged, let him symbolically burn it, not actually burn it.

 

[Speedwell]

If a flag has been symbolically damaged, let him symbolically burn it, not actually burn it.

Why? Because if he actually burns it you have decided that he must desire the destruction of the nation?
Once again, who are you to decide that? The motives of the protester are not yours to dictate to him.

 

[LouisBooth]

No, I'm saying you are making stuff

Not making anything up. Showing you're not logically consistent. It's pretty clear if you're reading your posts.

Like I said, change the First Amendment. That's where the Supreme Court pulled it's definition from.

Nope, you make a law. Even if there is a brief instance before a SC ruling, it's illegal at that time and you lose the argument by your own definition because, "hey it's legal!"

I guess my point went over your head

LOL I got it. You said that based on the poll, there isn't a national support. You were mistaken because it's a flawed conclusion. I pointed out to you why it was flawed. It's that simple

 

[Chesterton]

Why? Because if he actually burns it you have decided that he must desire the destruction of the nation?
Once again, who are you to decide that? The motives of the protester are not yours to dictate to him.

It's not me deciding. There are established protocols for disposing of it properly. How to Retire an American Flag - American Disposal

 

[Speedwell]

It's not me deciding. There are established protocols for disposing of it properly. How to Retire an American Flag - American Disposal

No, you were deciding what the motives of the protester were.

But I agree with you about the protocol. If I have occasion to burn the flag as a protest I will do it properly with due respect as described in your link.

 

[Chesterton]

No, you were deciding what the motives of the protester were.

But I agree with you about the protocol. If I have occasion to burn the flag as a protest I will do it properly with due respect as described in your link.

If you read it you'll see that protest is not a proper motive.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You've never heard of drone strikes?

Obama has ordered drone strikes on people who have offended him? Do tell.

That wasn't a threat. I've never hit the report button on anyone. Just sayin'.

I wouldn't have cared if it was, or if you had. Just sayin'.[/QUOTE]

IIRC from our earlier discussion on Political correctness (a link to that thread would certainly refresh my memory), you were operating under the mistaken premise that "political" correctness was about politics, and not about profit.

The truth is really quite simple -- under government, you have certain inalienable rights; in the business world, you do not. You're not even a person to them; you're a human resource. Like any other resource, they will use you if you make them money, and replace you if you cost them money. That's life.

Since this discussion is about government, not business, profits don't enter into it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

No, you were deciding what the motives of the protester were.

And our government, under Trump, would seek to punish motives, not actions.

Thought Police, anyone?

 

[LouisBooth]

And our government, under Trump, would seek to punish motives, not actions.

Motives are punishable by law in this context, FYI.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Motives are punishable by law in this context, FYI.

Only if the action itself is also punishable by law.... motive can mitigate or exacerbate it... but can motive alone turn a legal act into an illegal one?

Trump is going to have to phrase his law carefully to explain why protesters get arrested, but Boy Scouts do not. Any suggestions?

 

[Chesterton]

Obama has ordered drone strikes on people who have offended him? Do tell.

I didn't say that.

IIRC from our earlier discussion on Political correctness (a link to that thread would certainly refresh my memory), you were operating under the mistaken premise that "political" correctness was about politics, and not about profit.

The truth is really quite simple -- under government, you have certain inalienable rights; in the business world, you do not. You're not even a person to them; you're a human resource. Like any other resource, they will use you if you make them money, and replace you if you cost them money. That's life.

Since this discussion is about government, not business, profits don't enter into it.

I don't recall talking about profits. We were mainly talking about what happens on college campuses. I don't remember the thread titles. I remember one of them got shut down and I sent you a PM about it.

 

[LouisBooth]

but can motive alone turn a legal act into an illegal one

Yes. conspiracy. It's legally tricky ground, but refutes you none the less. In this context motive can be punishable by law.

Any suggestions?

Sure. Anyone protesting by burning a US flag loses all government paid benefits..unemployment, food stamps, tax deductions, etc..It's a good start anyway. Its not illegal to burn the flag in protest, but you receive a consequence for doing it in relation to the government.

 

[Speedwell]

If you read it you'll see that protest is not a proper motive.

Certainly it is not contemplated in the link you provided, that's all.

But I want to thank you for a capital notion. Even hardened liberals like myself wince when we see the flag burned in an haphazard, negligent fashion during a protest. A well-organized, solemn and respectful ceremony would be much more effective as a statement.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I didn't say that.

Then "looking up Drone Strikes" is a rabbit trail that leads nowhere.

I don't recall talking about profits. We were mainly talking about what happens on college campuses. I don't remember the thread titles. I remember one of them got shut down and I sent you a PM about it.

Ah, yes -- I see it now: "The Death of Political Correctness."

The Death of Political Correctness...

I seem to recall my main argument being that there is too much political correctness, but too much is better than none at all. You call that a defense?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yes. conspiracy. It's legally tricky ground, but refutes you none the less. In this context motive can be punishable by law.

A person can be arrested for "conspiracy" to perform a legal act? do tell...

Sure. Anyone protesting by burning a US flag loses all government paid benefits..unemployment, food stamps, tax deductions, etc..It's a good start anyway. Its not illegal to burn the flag in protest, but you receive a consequence for doing it in relation to the government.

That's going to hit the Boy Scouts and the V.F.W. pretty hard, don't you think?

 

[Speedwell]

Yes. conspiracy. It's legally tricky ground, but refutes you none the less. In this context motive can be punishable by law.

Sure. Anyone protesting by burning a US flag loses all government paid benefits..unemployment, food stamps, tax deductions, etc..It's a good start anyway. Its not illegal to burn the flag in protest, but you receive a consequence for doing it in relation to the government.

LOL! It sounds like a "good start" towards punishing all forms of protest against egregious acts of the government.