GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ?

[dfw69]

Because they are among the 288,000 first fruits unto YHWH and the Lamb.

But why are they to be chosen and protected while others die by persecution? What sets them apart from others who kept the commandments of god?

The Bible says they are virgins and not defiled by women ... what do you make of that? No sexual sins?.... or something more spiritual?

2 Corinthians 11:2-3 comes to mind

 

[gadar perets]

But why are they to be chosen and protected while others die by persecution? What sets them apart from others who kept the commandments of god?

It is possible that they are the only true believers left on earth as a result of the first six seals. Rev 6:11 refers to a set number of believers that would die. The remaining 144,000 would then be sealed and taught the true Gospel for 1260 days in a place of safety. They will come out with great power preaching the Gospel and be killed for it.

The Bible says they are virgins and not defiled by women ... what do you make of that? No sexual sins?.... or something more spiritual?

2 Corinthians 11:2-3 comes to mind

That is a different group of 144,000 who lived in apostolic days. I believe they are spiritual virgins are were not defiled by women (false religions). They had the pure truth and spread it in their day.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

You are mixing things up. Only the Sabbath is found in the TEN which are the foundation... Circumcision is part of the ordinances. Passover is part of the feasts. Circumcision is a covenant between Abraham and God, it is also found in the ordinances regarding how gentiles will be allowed to keep the Passover.

You didn't actually answer the (excellent) question.
Was circumcision made for man?
Was the Passover made for man?

And continuing...
Question: Was the Sabbath given to the Israelites?
Answer: God made the Sabbath for man
Question: When did He give it to man?
Answer: At creation
Question: Well how did God give it to the Israelite's if He'd already given it at creation? (Ezekiel 20:12)

 

[visionary]

You didn't actually answer the (excellent) question.
Was circumcision made for man?
Was the Passover made for man?

And continuing...
Question: Was the Sabbath given to the Israelites?
Answer: God made the Sabbath for man
Question: When did He give it to man?
Answer: At creation
Question: Well how did God give it to the Israelite's if He'd already given it at creation? (Ezekiel 20:12)

You are missing the point. Sabbath is part of the foundation [in stone] whereas the Passover and circumcision is not. Your point about the Passover and circumcision is a misdirect.

 

[dfw69]

It is possible that they are the only true believers left on earth as a result of the first six seals. Rev 6:11 refers to a set number of believers that would die. The remaining 144,000 would then be sealed and taught the true Gospel for 1260 days in a place of safety. They will come out with great power preaching the Gospel and be killed for it.

It's possible...

That is a different group of 144,000 who lived in apostolic days. I believe they are spiritual virgins are were not defiled by women (false religions). They had the pure truth and spread it in their day.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

You are missing the point. Sabbath is part of the foundation [in stone] whereas the Passover and circumcision is not. Your point about the Passover and circumcision is a misdirect.

No but now you are misdirecting the topic. You were talking about how the sabbath is a perpetual sign. My reply is: so is circumcision and the Passover.

Now you are back to saying: it is part of the Ten. This point is a misdirect from your previous post.

So let it be hammered down, the reference to it being a sign, or it being perpetual is a moot point.

So now let's move onto the fact that it's part of the Ten. You are arguing that because of it's PLACEMENT (the fact it's in the Ten) it remains to this day. The question is why? If the other laws that do not apply were also described as perpetual, why does the Sabbath carry over into the new covenant? Is there any other symbol/sign from the old covenant that carries over? Why this one?

 

[visionary]

No but now you are misdirecting the topic. You were talking about how the sabbath is a perpetual sign. My reply is: so is circumcision and the Passover.

Now you are back to saying: it is part of the Ten. This point is a misdirect from your previous post.

So let it be hammered down, the reference to it being a sign, or it being perpetual is a moot point.

So now let's move onto the fact that it's part of the Ten. You are arguing that because of it's PLACEMENT (the fact it's in the Ten) it remains to this day. The question is why? If the other laws that do not apply were also described as perpetual, why does the Sabbath carry over into the new covenant? Is there any other symbol/sign from the old covenant that carries over? Why this one?

When I drive down the road, there is only one sign that says which road it is, the rest of the signs tell you of a turn coming up, the speed limit, etc.

 

[gadar perets]

You didn't actually answer the (excellent) question.
Was circumcision made for man?
Was the Passover made for man?

And continuing...
Question: Was the Sabbath given to the Israelites?
Answer: God made the Sabbath for man
Question: When did He give it to man?
Answer: At creation
Question: Well how did God give it to the Israelite's if He'd already given it at creation? (Ezekiel 20:12)

Visionary may not have answered your question, but I did in post #293 which you have not replied to. As for your last question in this post, Israel was in Egypt for 400+ years. They lost track of the Sabbath which is why Yahweh had to reteach them about it in Exodus 16.

 

[visionary]

Visionary may not have answered your question, but I did in post #293 which you have not replied to. As for your last question in this post, Israel was in Egypt for 400+ years. They lost track of the Sabbath which is why Yahweh had to reteach them about it in Exodus 16.

Not according to the book of Jubilees. Israel didn't lose track, may have been down to the Levi tribe, but it was still known.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Visionary may not have answered your question, but I did in post #293 which you have not replied to. As for your last question in this post, Israel was in Egypt for 400+ years. They lost track of the Sabbath which is why Yahweh had to reteach them about it in Exodus 16.

You mean this below?

The very first circumcision was a sign between God and a GENTILE (Abraham). Circumcision was later commanded for Jews as well because they are Abraham's seed. Are you of the seed of Abraham through Messiah?


The blood on the doorposts was a one time thing to protect the firstborn in Egypt. It typified blood of the true Passover Lamb, Messiah Yeshua, protecting us. Is Messiah your Passover?


The Sabbath was made for ALL mankind (Mark 2:27), not just for Jews. Are you sanctified by Yahweh through receiving His Son as your Savior? Are you of the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Israel through Messiah? Then the Sabbath is a sign for you as well.


See above.

I'm sorry but this didn't make sense to me so I didn't reply.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. No

These statements you make may be true but do nothing to explain why God called them perpetual, why they ended, and why the Sabbath continues as separate to them.

 

[gadar perets]

You mean this below?



I'm sorry but this didn't make sense to me so I didn't reply.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. No

These statements you make may be true but do nothing to explain why God called them perpetual, why they ended, and why the Sabbath continues as separate to them.

You say they ended. Circumcision has not ended. We are to circumcise our sons on the eighth day, not so they can be saved or justified, but because Yahweh commanded it for the seed of Abraham whose seed we are. An exemption was made for uncircumcised Gentiles coming into the faith since they can no longer be circumcised on the eighth day.

As for the Passover blood on the doorposts, that was not a perpetual sign, but a one time sign.

 

[gadar perets]

Not according to the book of Jubilees. Israel didn't lose track, may have been down to the Levi tribe, but it was still known.

I put no credence in that book.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Circumcision has not ended.

This is a more consistent approach than SDA's at least. I suppose you are referring to Acts 15 when you say "an exemption was made for uncircumcised gentiles". But it's not just circumcision discussed in Acts 15, it's "the Law of Moses" (v5).

Now reading this chapter it can be easily missed that the concluding instructions are not for salvation but are for the saved.

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

Who would they write to? A brother. A believer. and they don't tell them to keep the law of Moses. They do recognize how the law of Moses is helpful for teaching someone about the things of God and righteousness, but they do not order them to keep it. I think this is an important distinction.

 

[Yusuphhai]

More Chinese Judaism lovers (Noahides) and Christians of Hebraic Root lover are practicing Shabbat. Although they need not observe the rules of Shabbat strictly as Jewish do. I think it is a free choice to them.

Psalms90:13，14，16，17
【犹太音乐Jewish Music】神，转回吧！שובה השם

 

[Joshua_5]

You are missing the point. Sabbath is part of the foundation [in stone] whereas the Passover and circumcision is not. Your point about the Passover and circumcision is a misdirect.

Surely signs and symbols demonstrated in blood and skin outweigh something in stone? (If that is your argument as to why Sabbath outweighs Passover and Circumcision).

 

[Joshua_5]

You say they ended. Circumcision has not ended. We are to circumcise our sons on the eighth day, not so they can be saved or justified, but because Yahweh commanded it for the seed of Abraham whose seed we are. An exemption was made for uncircumcised Gentiles coming into the faith since they can no longer be circumcised on the eighth day.

I agree that at least this is a more consistent approach than Visionary's (albeit wrong). If the exemption was only for uncircumcised Gentiles as they could no longer be circumcised on the eigth day as per God's instruction, why was Timothy circumcised, but Titus was not? If Timothy could still be circumcised beyond the eigth day to correct what was not done then, why could this not be done also for all the Gentiles (such as Titus)?

 

[gadar perets]

This is a more consistent approach than SDA's at least. I suppose you are referring to Acts 15 when you say "an exemption was made for uncircumcised gentiles". But it's not just circumcision discussed in Acts 15, it's "the Law of Moses" (v5).

Now reading this chapter it can be easily missed that the concluding instructions are not for salvation but are for the saved.

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

Who would they write to? A brother. A believer. and they don't tell them to keep the law of Moses. They do recognize how the law of Moses is helpful for teaching someone about the things of God and righteousness, but they do not order them to keep it. I think this is an important distinction.

I agree the Law of Moses is being discussed, but more precisely it is the abuse of the Law of Moses as a means of salvation that is the issue.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Master Yeshua Messiah we shall be saved, even as they.
​

The yoke of verse 10 is not the Law of Moses, but trying to keep the Law to be saved which was an incredible burden they were unable to bear.

The word "For" in verse 21 means "for this reason" or "because". James only included four laws from the Law of Moses for Gentile converts to keep because they would hear Moses read every SABBATH and would eventually hear and learn the rest of the Law of Moses rather than having to keep everything all at once. Surely those four laws are not the only ones they ever need to keep. There are many laws far more important than those (Ten Commandments, etc). The fact is, those laws would allow for Jewish and Gentile converts to fellowship and break bread together more readily without the Jewish believers being totally revolted by Gentile practices.

In reality, James' judgment was to not give the Gentiles converts a choice, but to "tell them" what they must do. James was not telling them "the Law of Moses is abolished and now you are free to break any commandment you want".

​

 

[gadar perets]

More Chinese Judaism lovers (Noahides) and Christians of Hebraic Root lover are practicing Shabbat. Although they need not observe the rules of Shabbat strictly as Jewish do. I think it is a free choice to them.

Psalms90:13，14，16，17
【犹太音乐Jewish Music】神，转回吧！שובה השם

All believers need to keep Shabbat strictly according to Yahweh's commandments and the examples we see in Scripture, but we don't need to keep Shabbat by following all the man-made strict rules the Jews applied to it.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree the Law of Moses is being discussed, but more precisely it is the abuse of the Law of Moses as a means of salvation that is the issue.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Master Yeshua Messiah we shall be saved, even as they.
​

The yoke of verse 10 is not the Law of Moses, but trying to keep the Law to be saved which was an incredible burden they were unable to bear.

The word "For" in verse 21 means "for this reason" or "because". James only included four laws from the Law of Moses for Gentile converts to keep because they would hear Moses read every SABBATH and would eventually hear and learn the rest of the Law of Moses rather than having to keep everything all at once. Surely those four laws are not the only ones they ever need to keep. There are many laws far more important than those (Ten Commandments, etc). The fact is, those laws would allow for Jewish and Gentile converts to fellowship and break bread together more readily without the Jewish believers being totally revolted by Gentile practices.

In reality, James' judgment was to not give the Gentiles converts a choice, but to "tell them" what they must do. James was not telling them "the Law of Moses is abolished and now you are free to break any commandment you want".

​

1. in Acts 15 they don't say to gentiles "do not take God's name in vain" -- is that because the Christian church thought it was ok for gentile Christians to take God's name in vain??? No!

2. Acts 15 was not intended to be a "new downsized 3 verse Bible for gentiles".

3. James says that part of the "solution" is to notice that Christians ALL Christians.. are hearing Moses preached in the synagogues every Sabbath. Why does James argue this point? What in the book of Acts leads us to think that Gospel preaching to gentiles and Jews is going on in the synagogues "every Sabbath" or that they value this as a place to hear scriptures - the Word of God?

Acts 13 "The NEXT Sabbath almost the ENTIRE CITY" shows up for Gospel preaching.

Acts 17 Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath - Gospel preaching to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

Acts 18:4 "EVERY SABBATH" they are hearing Gospel preaching the Synagogues - preaching to BOTH Jews AND Gentiles.

James was right!

But in the NT there is not ONE example of "EVERY week-day-1 Gospel preaching for both Jews and Gentiles"
In the NT there is not one reference to "And the NEXT week-day-1 almost the entire city showed up for Gospel preaching"
There is not ONE reference to "and they kept asking that MORE Gospel preaching be given the NEXT week-day-1"
There is not ONE statement of the form "for three weekday-1's they kept hearing Gospel preaching"
There is not ONE "From week-day-1 to week-day-1 shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" in all of scripture.

There is not one "Week-day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" in all of scripture.
There is not One "REMEMBER week-day-1 to keep it holy" in all of scripture.
There is not ONE "every Week-day-1 is a day of holy convocation" in all of scripture.
There is not ONE "The Son of man is LORD of weekday-1" in all of scripture.

There is not ONE reference to weekday-1 being inserted into the TEN Commandments in all of scripture.

Week-day-1 traditions are man-made traditions "alone"

 

[gadar perets]

I agree that at least this is a more consistent approach than Visionary's (albeit wrong). If the exemption was only for uncircumcised Gentiles as they could no longer be circumcised on the eigth day as per God's instruction, why was Timothy circumcised, but Titus was not? If Timothy could still be circumcised beyond the eigth day to correct what was not done then, why could this not be done also for all the Gentiles (such as Titus)?

The difference is that it was expedient that Timothy be circumcised so as not to hinder the preaching of the good news among the Jews at Derbe and Lystra . This type of circumcision was acceptable because it was not done to justify or save Timothy, but to further the Gospel. Titus, however, was in Jerusalem among fellow believers and the Apostles. Had the disciples compelled Titus to be circumcised at the request of the "false brethren" of Galatians 2:4, the false brethren would have succeeded in bringing the disciples into bondage (seeking to be justified by Law).