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Women becoming pastors?

Victor E.

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A church near me has a woman pastor senior pastor. My take on this that a woman should not be the senior pastor of a church. In which the Bible speaks highly against it.
What is your take on this?

The short answer? No. A woman should not be the senior Pastor of a church according to Scripture. This is the truth.

To say otherwise is to supersede what God has said and replace it with what is politically and socially correct. If we go by that, according to Christ we are to call no one "Rabbi", "Teacher" "Father" except the Christ (Abba, Father).

"But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:8-12

Since Christ's instruction for followers is already being superseded by the rest of the NT (Church of Corinth, other Churches falling away) ...in regards to formal Church and buildings for church groups...

I don't see why they couldn't if they are teaching sound doctrine and have a HIGH level of self-control.

Instructions to Women (1 Timothy 2:9-15)

"Likewise, I want the women to adorn themselves with respectable apparel, with modesty, and with self-control, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, as is proper for women who profess to worship God.

A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression. Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control."
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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... If we go by that, according to Christ we are to call no one "Rabbi", "Teacher" "Father" except the Christ (Abba, Father).

"But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:8-12

Since Christ's instruction for followers is already being superseded by the rest of the NT (Church of Corinth, other Churches falling away) ...in regards to formal Church and buildings for church groups...

...... Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control."
^ Says it all
 
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Strong in Him

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I"m undecided on this issue, but my point is you're using circular logic to justify it. Women in ministry doing good things are not proof that God calls women to ministry.

I do think it makes a difference if you a) know the women involved and b) believe that God is able to guide his children and keep them from making mistakes when they ask him.

I have seen people on these forums dismiss all ordained women as feminists, or people following their own desires and will. I have also seen posts saying that "God allows sin to remain in end times". But I have seen none that address the issue of a Christian woman who wants to serve God and is praying about how she can do this, and who comes to the conclusion, over time and with prayer/advice/discernment from others that the ordained ministry is the way forward and what God is calling her to do. As I said, prayer is involved in every step of the selection process - it shouldn't be otherwise. So if the woman herself, and the various members of the selection panel, believe that this is how God is leading, shouldn't that at least be considered?
I suppose it's possible that a woman might go forward for ordination just because she envies men and wants to be equal to them, or because she thinks that being a Minister is a spiritual job and she wants to be seen in that way, or for other mixed motives. But if the woman has been a Christian for a while, knows how to pray and listen to God, and is known to be a woman of faith and integrity, and if the selection panel have faith in the living God who has promised to guide his children, and the conclusion from all is that this calling IS from God; surely this should at least give pause for thought?

Sometimes it seems that people are so firmly wedded to an interpretation of a passage/verse of Scripture that they either miss what God is doing in the church, or they spend time telling him that he can't do it.

No, the question is has he blessed the fruit of someone sinning, and yes he has. Looking at Jesus' lineage should tell you that alone. Again, he is making the best of a bad situation.

The OT tells us that sometimes God chose to use something that was considered to be bad. Like when he told Habakkuk that, in answer to his prayer, he (God) was going to raise up the nation's enemies - make the Babylonians powerful. Israel, God's own people, were eventually taken into exile and ruled over by a pagan nation, while Jerusalem, and the temple of God, were destroyed. This was all as a result of Israel's sin and idolatry. No one at the time would have said that this was good. But I'm sure that good things came from it; like the Synagogue system. There were other occasions in the OT where God used a country to discipline Israel - by defeating them in battle. But these were things that God initiated; he had a purpose in allowing them.

I can't believe that some Christian women are saying, "I believe that God may be asking me to become ordained", and God is watching all this saying, "no I'm not; I really don't want this to happen - but it looks like I have no choice so I had better make the best of it."
Either God leads and guides us, his church, or he doesn't. I know people can make mistakes and serve with mixed motives, but a lot of Christians I know, really want to know, and do, God's will. If we don't believe that God can lead us in paths of righteousness for his name's sake, Psalms 23:3, or that the sheep are able to know the voice of the Good Shepherd, or that the Holy Spirit gives gifts to build up the church and can guide us; then we might as well give up nd just do our own thing.

And believe...again, that doesn't justify it. I can believe in my heart that God wanted X for me, that doesn't make it so.

But it might well be so - depending on what it is.

You don't need to believe it for it to be true. He was an angel of light. He is quite sneaky. Look at the name it claim it gospel. I believe that's a great example of Satan using a minor good to accomplish a major evil.

Yes but if you read the rest of that sentence, I said that I don't believe the devil would lead someone to proclaim the Gospel, the cross and the fact that he was defeated on the cross. That would be a bit like handing a gun to another person and telling them how useful it is in getting rid of troublesome people.
The devil is a liar and murderer from the beginning. He is God's enemy; God is light, he is darkness. He is the thief who comes to kill and destroy, John 10:10. He will use sickness, doubt, sin, temptation etc to lead people away from God, prevent them from reading the Scriptures, praying and coming to Jesus, THE truth and life, to find salvation and reconciliation with God. A woman who believes she is called to be ordained, and who prays about it, talks to other people and they pray about it, trains in theology and is anointed with oil, and the Holy Spirit, to preach the Gospel and lead, and serve, God's people, and help those outside the church to find God - would not be fulfilling the devil's brief. I can't see why he would have an interest in doing something which leads people - even if it's only the woman candidate - closer to God. And if his intention is to get women ordained so that they will be in sin and destroy the church; it's not working.
 
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LouisBooth

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know the women involved
I know good people too. That doesn't justify their actions no matter how deep the desire. I'd say your logic and statements can be used to justify homosexuality as well (yes sidebar topic). The "I was called by God" was once used against me as a break up when I was quite a bit younger. I just put this against the bible now. I'm not sold either way, but I see far more biblical evidence against you then for. The pro side usually uses experience to influence the word, not the other way around.

I can't believe that some Christian women
I think this is the crux of the issue. Can you honestly say you are open to God showing you that you might be wrong in this instance?

But it might well be so - depending on what it is.
Not at all. It's independent on the object or desire. Christ has several good desires put in front of him by Satan, but it was God's will be done.

God is light, he is darkness
I think you give Satan far too much power. He is not the opposite of God, just a fallen angel working against him.

would not be fulfilling the devil's brief
and I disagree. I've cited the name it claim in crowd as a good example of this. Satan is ripe in that movement. He is sneaky and works in subtle ways. You don't think Satan would push a good to accomplish a greater evil? Yes, he would. Loose a battle to win a major war? Yes he would. He would have pushed the Isrealites to worship God if it ment stopping the cross. That is HOW soldiers fight against a overwhelming enemy.
 
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Blade

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This is like when Paul talked about. if you willingly sin.. there is no more sacrifice for that sin. See when Jews would get saved some would sin and then go try to offer up a sacrifice for that sin. Paul told them..there is no more sacrifice for sin. Can Christ die again? Not know thing this and then reading.. if we sin.. we confess it and Christ is just and will forgive us our sins and cleans us from ALL unrighteousness.

So.. like in one church in Pauls day where it talked about women covering their heads. That was how they did it THEN and there. Strange how some take a verse for just what is written.. yet other verses they wont. Hmm

And you have to search.. were there GODS of women the people that Paul was talking to.. or other times just to husbands and wifes ..on and on. Paul was talking TO SOMEONE at that time. Like the ones where women must cover their heads. Like sin.. willingly sin..no sacrifice for that sin. Oops.. we willingly sin.. its all over then.

No.. if you take it and NOT SEARCH your doomed then. Yet we find Paul was talking to JEWISH people that got saved. They would SIN then go offer a sacrifice for that sin. Paul said NO! There is no more sacrifice for sin. Can Christ die again? Christ was is the sacrifice for ALL SINS! For the world.

Its like this. You take a verse where he was talking to someone about something...then at that day. And if you keep going around saying women cant preach.. God will say nothing. He will never go against our will. You are free. If you ask seek pray be willing to be wrong.. He will tell you show you in HIS word. Your choice.

But to any woman/girl.. if GOD tells you picks you.. it is to HIM you bow and Him alone not man. We are not here to please man. So do what GOD tells you. Not me or anyone else.
 
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Disciple37

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I do think it makes a difference if you a) know the women involved and b) believe that God is able to guide his children and keep them from making mistakes when they ask him.

I have seen people on these forums dismiss all ordained women as feminists, or people following their own desires and will. I have also seen posts saying that "God allows sin to remain in end times". But I have seen none that address the issue of a Christian woman who wants to serve God and is praying about how she can do this, and who comes to the conclusion, over time and with prayer/advice/discernment from others that the ordained ministry is the way forward and what God is calling her to do. As I said, prayer is involved in every step of the selection process - it shouldn't be otherwise. So if the woman herself, and the various members of the selection panel, believe that this is how God is leading, shouldn't that at least be considered?
I suppose it's possible that a woman might go forward for ordination just because she envies men and wants to be equal to them, or because she thinks that being a Minister is a spiritual job and she wants to be seen in that way, or for other mixed motives. But if the woman has been a Christian for a while, knows how to pray and listen to God, and is known to be a woman of faith and integrity, and if the selection panel have faith in the living God who has promised to guide his children, and the conclusion from all is that this calling IS from God; surely this should at least give pause for thought?

Sometimes it seems that people are so firmly wedded to an interpretation of a passage/verse of Scripture that they either miss what God is doing in the church, or they spend time telling him that he can't do it.



The OT tells us that sometimes God chose to use something that was considered to be bad. Like when he told Habakkuk that, in answer to his prayer, he (God) was going to raise up the nation's enemies - make the Babylonians powerful. Israel, God's own people, were eventually taken into exile and ruled over by a pagan nation, while Jerusalem, and the temple of God, were destroyed. This was all as a result of Israel's sin and idolatry. No one at the time would have said that this was good. But I'm sure that good things came from it; like the Synagogue system. There were other occasions in the OT where God used a country to discipline Israel - by defeating them in battle. But these were things that God initiated; he had a purpose in allowing them.

I can't believe that some Christian women are saying, "I believe that God may be asking me to become ordained", and God is watching all this saying, "no I'm not; I really don't want this to happen - but it looks like I have no choice so I had better make the best of it."
Either God leads and guides us, his church, or he doesn't. I know people can make mistakes and serve with mixed motives, but a lot of Christians I know, really want to know, and do, God's will. If we don't believe that God can lead us in paths of righteousness for his name's sake, Psalms 23:3, or that the sheep are able to know the voice of the Good Shepherd, or that the Holy Spirit gives gifts to build up the church and can guide us; then we might as well give up nd just do our own thing.



But it might well be so - depending on what it is.



Yes but if you read the rest of that sentence, I said that I don't believe the devil would lead someone to proclaim the Gospel, the cross and the fact that he was defeated on the cross. That would be a bit like handing a gun to another person and telling them how useful it is in getting rid of troublesome people.
The devil is a liar and murderer from the beginning. He is God's enemy; God is light, he is darkness. He is the thief who comes to kill and destroy, John 10:10. He will use sickness, doubt, sin, temptation etc to lead people away from God, prevent them from reading the Scriptures, praying and coming to Jesus, THE truth and life, to find salvation and reconciliation with God. A woman who believes she is called to be ordained, and who prays about it, talks to other people and they pray about it, trains in theology and is anointed with oil, and the Holy Spirit, to preach the Gospel and lead, and serve, God's people, and help those outside the church to find God - would not be fulfilling the devil's brief. I can't see why he would have an interest in doing something which leads people - even if it's only the woman candidate - closer to God. And if his intention is to get women ordained so that they will be in sin and destroy the church; it's not working.

God does not allow women to be spiritual leaders of men. Not for any other reason really other than that he instructed men to be the spiritual leaders. Not women. It's not a man vs woman thing. It's simply declared in the word of God.

If the word of God said women are the spiritual leaders of men great, whatever God wants or ordains.

But it simply doesn't put things that way and there's not way around it.
 
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Strong in Him

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God does not allow women to be spiritual leaders of men. Not for any other reason really other than that he instructed men to be the spiritual leaders. Not women. It's not a man vs woman thing. It's simply declared in the word of God.

If the word of God said women are the spiritual leaders of men great, whatever God wants or ordains.

But it simply doesn't put things that way and there's not way around it.

Well in that case, you have a dilemma.
a) Scripture says that there were prophetesses - women who heard from God and then gave/spoke his word to men. Deborah was one, so were Huldah, Isaiah's wife and Philip's 4 daughters. After King Josiah found the book of the law, he sent men, including a priest, to go and consult a prophet and get a word from God. These men chose to consult Huldah, a woman, rather than any of the male prophets of the day - like Jeremiah. Huldah gave the men God's word, the king listened and there was revival in the land. 2 Kings 22.
As well as being a prophetess, Deborah was judge over the whole land; judges were appointed by God.
In NT churches, women prophesied; Paul even instructed them how to do it.
Women were teachers; Priscilla taught Apollos. They were also deaconesses, and in Phoebe's case, a deacon, in the church. Paul worked with many women and commended them for their hard work for the sake of the Gospel. True, Scripture doesn't say that what this work involved or that they led the churches, but they may have done. It has been suggested that the church at Philippi was co founded by Lydia - in Acts 16:11-15, Paul goes to Philippi, to the place of prayer, finds a group of women, talks to, and leads them to Christ, and stays with Lydia for a few days.
Women are, and always have been, evangelists; preaching the Gospel to men, which involves teaching what the Bible says about sin and leading them to Jesus.
Jesus gave the Great Commission to his disciples. All followers of Jesus are to preach, teach and make disciples - there is no suggestion that this excludes women. Women have always been sent out onto the mission field. Gladys Aylward founded a church when she went to China, and others may have done so.
Jesus chose a woman to be the first witness of his resurrection, rather than any of his disciples. Mary Magdalene din't lead them, as such - but she did tell them about the resurrection and give them a message from the risen Christ.

b) Given that women are, and have been, involved in teaching, prophecy and evangelism; what exactly do you mean by "spiritual leadership".
I don't know about your church, but in those I have been in, the Minister does not tell people what to do, or even how to live. Yes, they teach from God's word, but they have no control over where someone lives, what job they decide to take, who, or whether, to marry, how much money to give to the church - or even which church they should attend. He/she may give counsel/prayer ministry and encourage people to stay close to God and listen to him; lay preachers and house group leaders can do that too. In fact, this is something we are encouraged to do for each other, as well as bear one another's burdens, love one another and confess our sins to one another. This is what, I think, Peter means when he calls us a holy priesthood - we are all priests and ministers. Clergy also talk about "every member ministry" - all Christians are filled with the Spirit and have the gifts that the Spirit chooses to give.
Minsters have authority in representing the church in the community - we all do, actually, but Ministers are more visible due to their dog collars - and may officiate at weddings. Lay preachers, like me, can take baptisms and funerals. A Minister also presides at communion, and will oversee everything that happens among church members and in the building - i.e chairing meetings, knowing how many house groups there are and providing some support, employing youth/lay workers and so on.
Personally, I'm not sure that any of this amounts to "spiritual leadership", but I could be wrong.

c) Christian women today offer for ordination - and are accepted, and affirmed, in that calling - by male clergy. The ordination selection process is a long one - it's not about someone standing up in church and saying "I feel led to be your minister", and taking over. This call may not even originate with the woman involved; I have heard people say that their Ministers/house group leaders suggested to them that God might be leading them to do this. I dare say it's possible that some may have received a prophecy, or other word from God, about it. I am not a Minister but I do preach and lead services. It wasn't my idea or desire, it was a male preacher who suggested that God might be calling me to do this.
I have seen many people dismiss these women as being delude, mistaken or feminists only interested in furthering their own cause. But in many, I would say the majority, of cases, we are talking about born again Christians, women of prayer who have been filled with the Spirit, seek to serve God, who believe that God is calling them to do this. And I believe that if they have got it wrong, are offering from the wrong motives or disobeying Scripture; not only can the Lord correct/guide them, he is very willing to do so. Would he really allow a woman to stand in the pulpit and tell God's people that God called her to do this, if he knew full well that he hadn't?
Their call, authority and gifts are all from God - others just recognise and affirm these.
 
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Strong in Him

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I know good people too.

There are good people, and there are Spirit filled, prayerful, God-loving, faithful people; who are led, and in-dwelt, by God and who seek to serve him. people who believe that God guides them and has given them gifts and a calling. People who may have led house groups/Sunday school/prayer meetings/the youth group for several years, are close to God and know how he calls, guides and empowers - that's who I'm talking about.

That doesn't justify their actions no matter how deep the desire.

But it's not about desire, a "feeling" or ambition.
The selection and training processes, which are long and involved, are about discerning whether God has called a person to that ministry, and, eventually, recognising and affirming, that call. Mere "feelings", or desires, would probably not survive such a long process and rigorous scrutiny.

The "I was called by God" was once used against me as a break up when I was quite a bit younger.

Yes, "God told me not to go out with you any more" was once said to me too; as well as "God had told me that you're 'the one'."
This is very different - only two people are involved here, not bishops and the whole church. If 2 people are going out and one of them doesn't want the relationship to continue, at the end of the day, there's nothing the other one can do about it. The first person doesn't want debate, prayer, advice or to search the scriptures, even if the latter were possible; they just want out. Maybe they feel that "God told me ...." will end the discussion and/or cushion the blow, or maybe it's true and God has told that person that you are not the right partner for them. As you only have one point of view/perspective, with no confirmation from a third party, it's probably not possible to say.

I'm not sold either way, but I see far more biblical evidence against you then for.

Women are created, loved, saved, gifted, called and affirmed just as men are; there is evidence of all of this in Scripture. Women have helped people hear from/find God, have brought his word to them, taught, led, encouraged etc; there is evidence of this in Scripture too.

I think this is the crux of the issue. Can you honestly say you are open to God showing you that you might be wrong in this instance?

I think so; but it's not just about me. God would have to tell my church/denomination too, and those around me. The church I go to is a Methodist/URC partnership - Methodists and URCs accept women preachers and clergy. There is an Anglican church very near me, where my husband goes and where I am sure I would be happy - they accept women preachers/clergy too. I'm not sure what Baptists believe in this matter, nor if there is a church near me.

So I could go to my Superintendent tomorrow and say, "I now believe it's wrong for women to be ordained and maybe even to preach, (though I have been going the latter for 13 years). Because of this, I am leaving the Methodist church". I am fairly sure that he would want to know why I had come to believe this, that we would have some discussion and that he would explain various scriptures. If I was adamant that that's what I wanted to do, he couldn't stop me. Practically speaking, though, where would I go? The only denomination I know of that does not accept female clergy, are the Catholics, and there are a number of reasons why I cannot attend a Catholic church. Even if there was one near me, I wouldn't go there. So as far as I can see, if God told me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong, should no longer preach (hooray, no more sermon preparation) and should not be in a church that allows women to be ordained; the only option I have is to stay at home, on my own and have no Christian fellowship at all, or go out and found a new church/denomination - which could then, of course, be in-valid because it was started by a woman. And if I was a lone voice, saying "this is wrong", with all other churches and denominations telling me otherwise; how could I be sure that I had, in fact, heard from God correctly - or at all?

I think you give Satan far too much power. He is not the opposite of God, just a fallen angel working against him.

In Scripture there is light or darkness, life or death, God or the devil. Jesus drove out demons, resisted Satan in the wilderness, rebuked him, told the disciples he had seen Satan fall from heaven and told them to pray to be delivered from evil. Paul taught about spiritual warfare and Revelation says that there will be war against God and the devil, with the latter being thrown into a lake of fire.
The devil is so powerful that only Jesus' death on the cross could break his power.

Regarding whether or not Satan would try to turn people against God by preaching the cross, I guess we'll have to agree to differ.
 
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Mountainmike

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Like every other of the wide range of issues that divides Protestants, the problems are two fold. The question of authority.

1/ sola scriptura is not tenable. It is a self refuting hypothesis, that can be disproven logically, historically and indeed biblically. Scripture is not enough by itself. That's why there are arguments on interpretation,

2/ indeed authority lies with the church not scripture, as scripture clearly says 1 Timothy 3 the " pillar of truth is the church", which is the " household of god" and when Protestants claim the church is invisible, it is wrong. Many references to " house of God" in the OT show it is the visible physical church.

We see this in action in Matthew 18:16 etc where the issue has to be raised with the church for wisdom.

And what does it mean by church? The answer is apostolic succession, the power to bind and loose.

We see Paul in acts 15/16 going back to the apostles under the leadership of Peter for answers.

Try as they may, there is no credible defence put by any Protestant theologian to Peter being the rock in which the church is built, given the keys of the kingdom, a succession office Mathew 16:18 next under the king defined in davidic days. And Jesus promises that the church will be one, and the " gates of hell will not prevail" -against it, All the arguments against peter are sophistry that makes no grammatical let alone logical sense.

And early letters, clement, ignatius , irenaus etc make the succession clear.

The same apostolic succession under the holder if keys much late chose the canon of scripture, you now call bible.

The point is - the reason for dissent on this issue is the same as all others.

Protestants look for authority in the wrong place, and even scripture says so! The one church gives guidance that is bound in heaven,
 
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Strong in Him

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After the resurrection, Jesus said, "ALL authority has been given to me".

It is through Jesus that we are saved and reconciled to God. It is Jesus who sent his Holy Spirit to live in us and guide us. The Spirit also assures us that we are children of God, and gives us gifts so that the church may be built up, and so that we can serve God and do what he calls us to do.
It is God who calls and gives us his authority. Jesus also said that his disciples had the authority to ask anything in his name, to forgive sins, to preach the word and to heal and drive out demons. We have authority because God, through Jesus, gave it to us.

The church - which is all Christians - does not give Christians God's authority; they recognise what God has already given. Or not. Sometimes they discern, after prayer, discussion etc, that a call may not be from God or at least, that an individual is not called to/suited/gifted for a certain ministry.
Whether they truly do this in an impartial way, relying on the Spirit, listening to God and seeking only his will, or whether there is EVER a human element of "we've never done things that way and we don't believe God wants it either"; is another matter.
 
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LouisBooth

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So.. like in one church in Pauls day where it talked about women covering their heads. That was how they did it THEN and there
Umm...so the truth of God's word isn't timeless? Sorry, that doesn't count here. You can look at what the truth was in terms of that time, but can't say it was only for that time. If so, they communion was, "just for that time" and not murdering? Well that was just for that time.....
 
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Disciple37

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Well in that case, you have a dilemma.
a) Scripture says that there were prophetesses - women who heard from God and then gave/spoke his word to men. Deborah was one, so were Huldah, Isaiah's wife and Philip's 4 daughters. After King Josiah found the book of the law, he sent men, including a priest, to go and consult a prophet and get a word from God. These men chose to consult Huldah, a woman, rather than any of the male prophets of the day - like Jeremiah. Huldah gave the men God's word, the king listened and there was revival in the land. 2 Kings 22.
As well as being a prophetess, Deborah was judge over the whole land; judges were appointed by God.
In NT churches, women prophesied; Paul even instructed them how to do it.
Women were teachers; Priscilla taught Apollos. They were also deaconesses, and in Phoebe's case, a deacon, in the church. Paul worked with many women and commended them for their hard work for the sake of the Gospel. True, Scripture doesn't say that what this work involved or that they led the churches, but they may have done. It has been suggested that the church at Philippi was co founded by Lydia - in Acts 16:11-15, Paul goes to Philippi, to the place of prayer, finds a group of women, talks to, and leads them to Christ, and stays with Lydia for a few days.
Women are, and always have been, evangelists; preaching the Gospel to men, which involves teaching what the Bible says about sin and leading them to Jesus.
Jesus gave the Great Commission to his disciples. All followers of Jesus are to preach, teach and make disciples - there is no suggestion that this excludes women. Women have always been sent out onto the mission field. Gladys Aylward founded a church when she went to China, and others may have done so.
Jesus chose a woman to be the first witness of his resurrection, rather than any of his disciples. Mary Magdalene din't lead them, as such - but she did tell them about the resurrection and give them a message from the risen Christ.

b) Given that women are, and have been, involved in teaching, prophecy and evangelism; what exactly do you mean by "spiritual leadership".
I don't know about your church, but in those I have been in, the Minister does not tell people what to do, or even how to live. Yes, they teach from God's word, but they have no control over where someone lives, what job they decide to take, who, or whether, to marry, how much money to give to the church - or even which church they should attend. He/she may give counsel/prayer ministry and encourage people to stay close to God and listen to him; lay preachers and house group leaders can do that too. In fact, this is something we are encouraged to do for each other, as well as bear one another's burdens, love one another and confess our sins to one another. This is what, I think, Peter means when he calls us a holy priesthood - we are all priests and ministers. Clergy also talk about "every member ministry" - all Christians are filled with the Spirit and have the gifts that the Spirit chooses to give.
Minsters have authority in representing the church in the community - we all do, actually, but Ministers are more visible due to their dog collars - and may officiate at weddings. Lay preachers, like me, can take baptisms and funerals. A Minister also presides at communion, and will oversee everything that happens among church members and in the building - i.e chairing meetings, knowing how many house groups there are and providing some support, employing youth/lay workers and so on.
Personally, I'm not sure that any of this amounts to "spiritual leadership", but I could be wrong.

c) Christian women today offer for ordination - and are accepted, and affirmed, in that calling - by male clergy. The ordination selection process is a long one - it's not about someone standing up in church and saying "I feel led to be your minister", and taking over. This call may not even originate with the woman involved; I have heard people say that their Ministers/house group leaders suggested to them that God might be leading them to do this. I dare say it's possible that some may have received a prophecy, or other word from God, about it. I am not a Minister but I do preach and lead services. It wasn't my idea or desire, it was a male preacher who suggested that God might be calling me to do this.
I have seen many people dismiss these women as being delude, mistaken or feminists only interested in furthering their own cause. But in many, I would say the majority, of cases, we are talking about born again Christians, women of prayer who have been filled with the Spirit, seek to serve God, who believe that God is calling them to do this. And I believe that if they have got it wrong, are offering from the wrong motives or disobeying Scripture; not only can the Lord correct/guide them, he is very willing to do so. Would he really allow a woman to stand in the pulpit and tell God's people that God called her to do this, if he knew full well that he hadn't?
Their call, authority and gifts are all from God - others just recognise and affirm these.

The Bible does not ever say a woman cannot prophesy. These women you mention were chosen by God for very special reasons. However, the authority of women in the old testament is not relevant to the role of pastors in the New Church when the New Testaments specifically teaches against women holding such positions over men. The New Testament apostles give us a new framework and authority that is unique to to the new church and authority through Jesus Christ. The Bible is very clear women are not to hold such positions within the new church over men. Other women and children it is fine. The old Testament regarding the women God appointed for special purposes has no bearing on what is stated within the Framework of the church.

Timothy 2:11-14 gives us a clear example on why women are not to be leaders of men.

11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

If you remember, God cursed the woman for her actions, and the land for Adam. The woman was cursed for her desire to be for her husband (likely meaning her desire to rule over him), but instead he shall rule over her. This does not mean that mean men dominate women or that we are better because we are men. It is simply a result of our sin that the power struggle between men and women exist. It is likely the woman before the fall had no problem with her place that God ordained. A helper to man, but upon the fall, God allowed animosity between men and women. However, this is an entire discussion. So let me not detract from the current discussion.

Timothy 2:11-14 is a clear example of why a woman is not to be a minister or pastor over men in the new church.

The order of creation is also shown and the church represents this creation order.

Ephesians 5:22-33
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. in everything to their husbands.

So we simply find out that women are not to have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen men to be the primary teacher and authority in the church.
 
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There are good people, and there are Spirit filled, prayerful, God-loving, faithful people; who are led, and in-dwelt, by God and who seek to serve him
There are good, Spirit filled, prayerful, God loving, faithful people that get divorced, who believe that homosexuality isn't a sin, who believe, "X". That doesn't make it correct. Again this is circular reasoning.

But it's not about desire, a "feeling" or ambition
and here I disagree with you on this issue. People justifying things are half the problem with Christianity...probably more then half. Sorry, again, that doesn't fly here.

he first person doesn't want debate, prayer, advice or to search the scriptures, even if the latter were possible
Who says that was true. Don't build a strawman here. This person said she consulted her Church and quite a few other people. It wasn't a solo decision. Again, it's a justification BY PEOPLE, not scripture. You can't say, "well X person is "good, spirit filled, ect..." so their action is right! It just doesn't work that way.

God would have to tell my church/denomination too, and those around me

So I could go to my Superintendent tomorrow and say
Again, the justification you're using here at people, not scripture. Well where would I go, well my whole church believes this, well lots of people believe this. Again, circular reasoning. A lot of churches believe that homosexuality isn't a sin (a totally different topic, lets not derail). You should justify it by scripture. I do not see it specifically mentioned, but you do see it mentioned for the against. The best example is there are, "X" examples in the bible...well God uses the bad for a good situation, so I personally don't think that's justification at this time. I am looking for other evidence though.
 
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JackRT

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The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would want to think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himslf seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonomously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.
 
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Disciple37

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The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would want to think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himslf seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonomously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.

That's a common error in this argument. The Bible does not say women cannot lead lost men to Christ. What it limits them on is leading a Church of believers which the bible never puts them in the role of a pastor or spiritual authority over other men.

Even though Phoebe is called a deacon or servant, the bible does not say she held spiritual authority of men. Elders are able to teach, but deacons are not given this authority from what i see in scripture. Only the "overseer" the elder is qualified to "teach". Not the deacon.

Timothy 3:8-13 - Deacon Qualifications

8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. hold the mystery of the faith with ma clear conscience. let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Overseer (Elder Qualifications) - Timothy 3:1-7

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. keeping his children submissive, God’s church? become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

From here, we say that Elders are able to teach, but not the deacons. So she could have been a deacon and not contradicted the Bible. If you look at the verses you pointed out. Never does it indicate a single one of those women leading a church of believers, nor does it indicate they are having spiritual authority over men.

Just because God says women are not meant to be pastors or ministers does not mean they cannot share the gospel to the unsaved or remind her husband when he begins to go astray. She has a place a God ordained place and a very important place.
 
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When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society.
You should delete everything after this statement. You were justifying it biblically until you reached here.
 
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LouisBooth

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This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge.
Also this seems to be questioning the cannon and truth of scripture. Again why you should delete everything in that paragraph.
 
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JackRT

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You should delete everything after this statement. You were justifying it biblically until you reached here.

Are you seriously asking me to delete the truth?
 
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LouisBooth

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Are you seriously asking me to delete the truth?
Yes, because it's not truth. You're pushing YOUR ideas onto the bible, not the other way around. *edit* truth does not change based on the time, otherwise we could say, "well murder, that was just for that time..or adultery...that was just for that time in history."
 
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Also this seems to be questioning the cannon and truth of scripture. Again why you should delete everything in that paragraph.

I approach the Bible like a prospector would approach his claim. I am prepared to spend a lot of time and effort searching for the shining nuggets of wisdom and insight but I am also prepared to have to shift a lot of rubble in order to find them.
 
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