GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ?

[dfw69]

Gravity works the same way, Just because you jump off the cliff, breaking the law of gravity, doesn't mean it will hit you. What happens is at the bottom when the fall ends and the landing starts. The law of gravity tell you that it is an abrupt and often tragic ending to life given the fall is great. It is not the laws fault, it is the fault of those who believe they are above the law, yet have not counter laws that they can safely glide on. The ten are solid and basic to the continuance of life. The Sabbath is a key that many miss... but the fall is great and the landing traumatic.

sabbath keeping is a key to what? And what fall an traumatic landing befalls non sabbath keepers???

 

[gadar perets]

What's the basic points?

The basic point is, Romans 14 is not about eating unclean meat vs. being a vegetarian, but about eating clean meat vs. being a vegetarian. To use it to support eating unclean meat is far from Paul's intention.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I disagree. All ten existed as oral laws before they were written on stone. That is why Joseph knew adultery was wrong or why we see the Sabbath in Exodus 16 before it was given on Mt. Sinai, etc. Yes, now we have the Helper to help us keep the Ten. Of course, the Helper will not help you keep the Ten unless you want him to. He will not force us. The Father wants people who will obey from the heart. If we say, "I don't need help keeping the Ten because they no longer exist as laws", then we won't get the help.

Why is the Sabbath a sign to remind their exodus from Egypt? (Exodus 16:23,29 and Exodus 31:13-18)
If Abraham was never a slave in Egypt, why would the Sabbath be a sign to remind of the exodus? (Note the Sabbath is a sign between God and the sons of Israel; was Adam a son of Israel? Was Abraham a son of Israel?)

 

[dfw69]

The basic point is, Romans 14 is not about eating unclean meat vs. being a vegetarian, but about eating clean meat vs. being a vegetarian. To use it to support eating unclean meat is far from Paul's intention.

Well Paul failed to mention "clean" meats in his post ... he said "all things" instead

God told Peter to kill and eat unclean foods in a vision and taught him that what god cleans let no man call unclean ...

that he is able to make clean what was considered unclean before... Peter would be stubborn and would not kill and eat because of the law he held to that would cause defilement though god gave a direct commandment that seemed contrary to the law

But it was not contrary cause god prepared cleans foods for him to eat

The whole point God was trying to make is an unclean Gentile like myself is beloved and accepted by god and Jews or even Torah observant people have a hard time understanding that fact ...

I am cleaned not by my works of entering into the law but by the blood of Yahushua

That we are brothers by our mutual faith in messiah Yahushua and not by works of the law

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Well Paul failed to mention "clean" meats in his post ... he said "all things" instead

God told Peter to kill and eat unclean foods in a vision and taught him that what god cleans let no man call unclean ...

that he is able to make clean what was considered unclean before... Peter would be stubborn and would not kill and eat because of the law he held to that would cause defilement though god gave a direct commandment that seemed contrary to the law

But it was not contrary cause god prepared cleans foods for him to eat

And excellent symbolism of how once there were laws regulating life, but now there are not. Before there was the Mosaic Law and the blessings for the chosen Israelite Jews. But now all partake, everyone is clean, everyone is blessed who receive Him.

 

[dfw69]

And excellent symbolism of how once there were laws regulating life, but now there are not. Before there was the Mosaic Law and the blessings for the chosen Israelite Jews. But now all partake, everyone is clean, everyone is blessed who receive Him.

It was only a vision but god message is clear

Here's the kicker though.....everyone who looks upon Christian Gentiles through the eyes of the law see "unclean" or worse...and that's scary because we all know what the law says to do to those who break it's commandments ..

so I pray for my Torah observing brothers and sisters that they judge us not nor condemn us while on this earth ...not for my sakes.. but for theirs...


.but if the love of god is truly in the hearts of Torah observers they will accept sinners and love us because the love of god is shed in their hearts for humanity..... this I have seen in some of my Torah observant Christians brothers and sisters ... glory be to God

Several here have been a blessing and kind and loving enough to teach me the Torah... I am truly thankful for honest brothers and sisters ... I still have lots to learn I'm sure

 

[BobRyan]

In Hebrews 8:6-10 we are told that it is Christ Himself giving us the LAWs at Sinai.

Yes my brother and he fulfilled it for me and you

Ok then we are agreed that Christ did not die on the cross so you can eat rat sandwiches as a Christian.. or so that you can take God's name in vain and feel good about it... or so that you can dishonor your parents as a Christian and feel good about it.

And we also agree that Christ was in perfect compliance with all the Law of God. The rest of us are guilty of violating that law and thus are sinners - in need of the Gospel.

Having accepted the Gospel - the New Covenant writes the LAW of God on the heart and mind Jeremiah 31:31-33 .. Hebrews 8:6-10

This is the 'easy part' that even the majority of pro-sunday scholars will accept.

... but if you wish to continue in the old covenant to please God it must be done lawfully
and in light of the gospel... and you will do well ...

Is it your argument that if a Christian chooses not to take God's name in vain then they are under the old covenant and seeking to save themselves by works? Really? Is that what they teach in the church you go to???

Turns out - that under the NEW Covenant the "LAW of God is written on the heart and mind" and that includes the commandments of God - the commandment not to take God's name in vain. So that is New Covenant - Gospel Christianity - it is not old covenant.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The basic point is, Romans 14 is not about eating unclean meat vs. being a vegetarian, but about eating clean meat vs. being a vegetarian. To use it to support eating unclean meat is far from Paul's intention.

That is true. Bible details matter.

Paul never says "he who eats rats and he who eats sheep are fine". Romans 14 is not about "eating rats vs eating sheep".

In fact Romans 14 does not even mention "clean or unclean meat" at all.

The contrast is between vegetarian and non-vegetarian ... there is NO Old testament command to "Be vegetarian" - so this is not even about an Old Testament food law at all.

Paul says "I will NEVER EAT MEAT AGAIN if it causes my brother to stumble" -- that is "vegetarian". What is the context? Why does this vegetarian subject come up in the NT at all -- according to Paul?

The answer is in 1 Cor 8
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

In the NT issue over vegetarian vs meat eating.. the WEAK are the gentiles who are accustomed to idols ... the strong are the Jews who know there there is only one God - but who for the sake of the WEAK gentiles would offer to be vegetarian in order to not offend the WEAK conscience of the former-idol-worshipping gentiles.

How in the WORLD does this get SPUN into rat eating vs weak Bible-aware Law-keeping Jews ????

Well Paul failed to mention "clean" meats in his post ... he said "all things" instead

Ahhh yes - there is always eisegesis and ignoring every shred of context.

I keep forgetting about that "solution".

 

[dfw69]

Ok then we are agreed that Christ did not die on the cross so you can eat rat sandwiches as a Christian.. or so that you can take God's name in vain and feel good about it... or so that you can dishonor your parents as a Christian and feel good about it.

And we also agree that Christ was in perfect compliance with all the Law of God. The rest of us are guilty of violating that law and thus are sinners - in need of the Gospel.

Having accepted the Gospel - the New Covenant writes the LAW of God on the heart and mind Jeremiah 31:31-33 .. Hebrews 8:6-10

This is the 'easy part' that even the majority of pro-sunday scholars will accept.

Personally I believe in new laws written in our hearts ... love god love sinners judge not condemn not have mercy turn other cheek etc....in doing so it's counted unto us as fulfilling the entire law ... but yes we should not dishonor our parents not steal kill or destroy life of a person committed adultery fornicate ect ... the Bible says make no provisions for the flesh to fulfill its lust

Is it your argument that if a Christian chooses not to take God's name in vain then they are under the old covenant and seeking to save themselves by works? Really? Is that what they teach in the church you go to???

I don't go to church... I stop going since 2005 or so ...you are my church for the moment...

But the church I used to go to are not concern with such things...the law and sabbath keeping was not an issue for us ... in fact if you ask most Christians they would probably say the Ten Commandments are to be followed not understanding the true significance of it ... blame that on Charlton Heston

Turns out - that under the NEW Covenant the "LAW of God is written on the heart and mind" and that includes the commandments of God - the commandment not to take God's name in vain. So that is New Covenant - Gospel Christianity - it is not old covenant.

in Christ,

Bob

How does one take gods name in vain actually? How is it committed and counted as sin? Like give me an example...

 

[dfw69]

Ahhh yes - there is always eisegesis and ignoring every shred of context.

I keep forgetting about that "solution".

(Sigh)

Bob do you still hold to unclean foods because you believe it will defile you or do you eat clean foods because of health issues or just cause you believe God wants you to?

 

[visionary]

sabbath keeping is a key to what? And what fall an traumatic landing befalls non sabbath keepers???

Revelation has two groups of people in Rev 11. The first are in the temple, and then there are those in the outer court. Understand the symbolism, the placement of the two groups, and the outcomes for where they stand.

 

[BobRyan]

The basic point is, Romans 14 is not about eating unclean meat vs. being a vegetarian, but about eating clean meat vs. being a vegetarian. To use it to support eating unclean meat is far from Paul's intention.

That is true. Bible details matter.

Paul never says "he who eats rats and he who eats sheep are fine". Romans 14 is not about "eating rats vs eating sheep".

In fact Romans 14 does not even mention "clean or unclean meat" at all.

The contrast is between vegetarian and non-vegetarian ... there is NO Old testament command to "Be vegetarian" - so this is not even about an Old Testament food law at all.

Paul says "I will NEVER EAT MEAT AGAIN if it causes my brother to stumble" -- that is "vegetarian". What is the context? Why does this vegetarian subject come up in the NT at all -- according to Paul?

The answer is in 1 Cor 8
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

In the NT issue over vegetarian vs meat eating.. the WEAK are the gentiles who are accustomed to idols ... the strong are the Jews who know that there is only one God - but who for the sake of the WEAK gentiles would offer to be vegetarian in order to not offend the WEAK conscience of the former-idol-worshipping gentiles. (I am a gentile Christian and mean no disrespect to my fellow gentile Christians -- I am just pointing out "details" of what they were facing in the early church according to the Bible writers themselves).

How in the WORLD does this get SPUN into rat eating vs weak Bible-aware Law-keeping Jews ????

Well Paul failed to mention "clean" meats in his post ... he said "all things" instead

Ahhh yes - there is always eisegesis and ignoring every shred of context.

I keep forgetting about that "solution".

(Sigh)
Bob do you still hold to unclean foods

(Sigh) is your response to "Bible details" of the form "do you believe the Bible?"

What is that all about??

I find your logic "illusive" just then.

because you believe it will defile you or do you eat clean foods because of health issues or just cause you believe God wants you to?

I believe the Word of God.

I doubt that the fruit of the tree of knowledge had any poison at all in it -- I think it was just a simple test to see what Adam and Eve really thought of the "Word of God".. and as the NT states "sin IS - transgression of the LAW -- still" 1 John 3:4

Is the new nature leading us to "love sin"?? Romans 6 says no.

Having said that - I also admit that trichinosis is a "bad thing" that you can get from certain unclean animals... and that "the plague" in Europe did not have as much affect on Jews because they avoided "eating rat sandwiches" (so to speak) and that God's laws are for our good.

My point is that it would be wrong to argue "only obey the Word of God if you can find some OTHER reason for doing so - some better reason... some REAL reason". I think that is going down the wrong path. IN fact that is exactly the thinking that Eve was using. All Satan had to do was convince her (even if only by deception) that there was no OTHER reason...

The Bible in fact states that had she continued to have access to the Tree of Life in the garden - she would "live forever".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[gadar perets]

Why is the Sabbath a sign to remind their exodus from Egypt? (Exodus 16:23,29 and Exodus 31:13-18)
If Abraham was never a slave in Egypt, why would the Sabbath be a sign to remind of the exodus? (Note the Sabbath is a sign between God and the sons of Israel; was Adam a son of Israel? Was Abraham a son of Israel?)

It did not become a sign to remember their exodus until it was codified at Mt. Sinai. To believers prior to Sinai, it was a sign to remember creation. Yeshua said that Sabbath was made for man. Therefore, it was made for every man from Adam forward.

 

[gadar perets]

Well Paul failed to mention "clean" meats in his post ... he said "all things" instead

Does "all things" include wood, metal, pottery, etc? Just as those things are not included in "all things" neither is unclean meat since unclean meat was never food. Why doesn't verse 2 say, "another, who is weak, eateth only clean meat"? Because that wasn't the issue.

God told Peter to kill and eat unclean foods in a vision and taught him that what god cleans let no man call unclean ...

that he is able to make clean what was considered unclean before... Peter would be stubborn and would not kill and eat because of the law he held to that would cause defilement though god gave a direct commandment that seemed contrary to the law

But it was not contrary cause god prepared cleans foods for him to eat

The vision had nothing to do with cleansing meat, but cleansing people (Acts 10:28)

The whole point God was trying to make is an unclean Gentile like myself is beloved and accepted by god and Jews or even Torah observant people have a hard time understanding that fact ...

Torah observant people understand the vision perfectly. It is Christians who want to do away with the dietary laws that impose their own interpretation on the vision.

I am cleaned not by my works of entering into the law but by the blood of Yahushua

That we are brothers by our mutual faith in messiah Yahushua and not by works of the law

I agree as would every other Torah observant believer on this forum. That is not the issue. The issue is you choosing to sin by eating unclean meat and causing others to sin by teaching them to eat unclean meat. It is because you are a brother that we love that we try to correct you in this matter.

 

[gadar perets]

And excellent symbolism of how once there were laws regulating life, but now there are not. Before there was the Mosaic Law and the blessings for the chosen Israelite Jews. But now all partake, everyone is clean, everyone is blessed who receive Him.

Can a cleaned believer become unclean/defiled? Yes. For example, bitterness defiles and cleansed believer as does being joined to a harlot and eating unclean meat.

 

[BobRyan]

sabbath keeping is a key to what? And what fall an traumatic landing befalls non sabbath keepers???

If you look at the TEN Commandments - and start asking that sort of question - you get an instructive result.

"What matters if we use images/idols in our worship services? Pray to those they represent? Bow down before them and offer to serve them?"

And going beyond the TEN Commandments
"what matters if we pray to the dead? Seeking favors of them?"

One cannot argue that all those who break God's commands are not going to heaven. Many do it having been convinced by someone that this is all ok. I do not claim that they must go to hell for it - if they are doing it in good faith, not having a good understanding of the Word of God.

Jesus even says "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" as they not only commit murder but are in fact murdering their Savior and Creator.

Still - woe unto those who teach others to follow them in rebellion.

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

The Bible says "what wages is sin is death" Rom 6:23
The Bible says "sin is transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.
The Bible say " to him that knows to do right - and does it not , to him it is sin" James 4:17
The Bible says this in John 9
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

 

[BobRyan]

And excellent symbolism of how once there were laws regulating life, but now there are not. Before there was the Mosaic Law and the blessings for the chosen Israelite Jews. But now all partake, everyone is clean, everyone is blessed who receive Him.

Your "solution" where you simply "quote you" is at the very least a consistent resort on your part.

 

[AbbaLove]

1 Corinthians 9:20.

What you fail to grasp is that Paul is referring to the 613 ceremonial laws in this verse, not the Moral Law of the Ten Commandments. God's Moral Law was in effect before Israel became a Nation and after the two Temple periods for all mankind to this very day.

Matthew 5:18
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.​

The two huge oak doors of our Nation's Supreme Court have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. Inside the courtroom above where the Supreme Court judges sit is a display of the Ten Commandments.

James Madison, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

If some wonder why America is no longer the Christian Nation of our "Founding Fathers" it could be because many of today's Christians no longer believe the Ten Commandments are GOD's Moral Law for ALL mankind.

It was the RCC, not Paul (Apostle to both Jews and non-Jews) that annulled the Fourth Commandment (7th Day of Rest) and established Sunday as the Day of Rest for non-Jews.

Acts 14:1
At Iconium, Paul and Barnabas entered the Jewish synagogue as usual, and they spoke so well that a great number of Jews and Greeks believed.
Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Acts 19:8
And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.​

 

[YouAreAwesome]

It did not become a sign to remember their exodus until it was codified at Mt. Sinai. To believers prior to Sinai, it was a sign to remember creation. Yeshua said that Sabbath was made for man. Therefore, it was made for every man from Adam forward.

It may say it, but where exactly does it say the sabbath for man was a sign to remember creation?

 

[dfw69]

If you look at the TEN Commandments - and start asking that sort of question - you get an instructive result.

"What matters if we uses images/idols in our worship services? Pray to those they represent? Bow down before them and offer to serve them?"

You mean like Catholics?... I'm not catholic and I agree with you ...

And going beyond the TEN Commandments
"what matters if we pray to the dead? Seeking favors of them?"

I also agree we should not pray to the dead ... but ask the father directly for things

One cannot argue that all those who break God's commands are not going to heaven. Many do it having been convinced by someone that this is all ok. I do not claim that they must go to hell for it - if they are doing it in good faith, not having a good understanding of the Word of God.

I hear you

Jesus even says "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" as they not only commit murder but are in fact murdering their Savior and Creator.

Yeah Jesus stood against using the law unlawfully

Still - woe unto those who teach others to follow them in rebellion.

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

I believe the law and prophets are not fulfilled completely yet ... but that one day all things will be completed