GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I don't understand how some can say observing the Sabbath is still required, but physical circumcision is not. Wasn't physical circumcision a command that even outweighed observing the Sabbath?

I know the point was raised before, but I don't think it was suitably refuted.

Circumcision was for Jews only and was a blood covenant. Gentiles, being grafted in, now have Yeshua's blood covenant. The Sabbath is a universal command as were the others.

 

[dfw69]

Matthew 5:17-19

Hebrews 9:15-17

It is not just outwardly but now also inwardly...

So the Old Testament with all its same commandments as the new was not an inward showing?

 

[dfw69]

Circumcision was for Jews only and was a blood covenant. Gentiles, being grafted in, now have Yeshua's blood covenant. The Sabbath is a universal command as were the others.

Do you place Israel above Gentiles?

The Bible says we are one and that there are no longer Jew and gentile nor separation of law but one law to love god and love every one else

Are you saying the blood covenant that Jesus made with Gentiles grafted us into the blood covenant of the Jews?... I thought Jews must also enter into the same blood covenant we have to come to the father?

Are we all under the same covenant or is there still yet two covenants?

 

[dfw69]

I agree that it is a new covenant, not a renewed covenant. It is not, however, that we have a new law/Torah, but that the same Torah is administered in a new way. It is internal, written on hearts and minds, not external written on stone. The death penalty has been paid and the condemnation removed.

But it seems to me some are suggesting noachide law for Gentiles and Torah for Jews making a breach ...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So the Old Testament with all its same commandments as the new was not an inward showing?

You were commanded then and required...now we do because we WANT to not because we HAVE to.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Do you place Israel above Gentiles?

The Bible says we are one and that there are no longer Jew and gentile nor separation of law but one law to love god and love every one else

Are you saying the blood covenant that Jesus made with Gentiles grafted us into the blood covenant of the Jews?... I thought Jews must also enter into the same blood covenant we have to come to the father?

Are we all under the same covenant or is there still yet two covenants?

At that point (before Yeshua) yes. Read Romans 11

 

[danny ski]

Circumcision was for Jews only and was a blood covenant. Gentiles, being grafted in, now have Yeshua's blood covenant. The Sabbath is a universal command as were the others.

A better question is where is all this authority coming from to change the Torah? Both, the Shabbat and circumcision, are explicit and clear commandments. How can anyone be grafted to Israel(and we're commanded to keep those for all generations) and even discuss the possibility of non-compliance? Seems like an intellectual exercise grounded in hot air.

 

[gadar perets]

video error

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Love God and love your neighbor...is basically a summary of the 10 Commandments...on these hang all the Law and the prophets.
Yeshua still taught them...

He didn't teach them for the sake of us keeping them. He taught them to explain where they came from, love. We follow love and we will probably look pretty similar to those who keep the moral commands of Bible. But the motivation is different. We walk in the Spirit to love. Generally, law keepers look at the law, at what not to do, and try and be good. Jesus taught to transition from the Old to the New.

Now keeping the Sabbath because you love God, nothing wrong with that. But we could also get circumcised because we love God. We could also be vegan or never cut our hair or never drink wine etc. If we follow these practices because we feel we will love God more this way, fair enough, go for it. But as I said from my first post, if observing the Sabbath is for becoming some kind of remnant, or if used to make a group "elite" in any way, it is not good.

 

[gadar perets]

How about the whole letter to the Galatians. How about the whole New Testament.

But anyways, as for one proof-text hmmm so many to pick from... what about, Galatians 2:18

“For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor”

Actually maybe Colossians 2:16-17 is better

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

So I am encouraged by Paul to not judge you for keeping the Sabbath (whatever "keeping the Sabbath" means anyway).

Thanks for being more precise than just saying the whole NT or the whole letter to the Galatians.

I see you use a distorted translation of the Greek which really reads;

αG3739 WHICH εστινG2076 [G5748] ARE σκιαG4639 A SHADOW τωνG3588 OF THINGS μελλοντωνG3195 [G5723] TO COME; τοG3588 BUT δεG1161 THE σωμαG4983 BODY "IS" τουG3588 OF THE χριστουG5547 CHRIST.​

I highlighted all you added words in red:

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
​

The correct English translation of Colossians 2:16-17 is;

Let no man therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of Christ.
​

What is the "body of Christ"? The "church" (Colossians 1:18, 24; 2:19). Paul is saying to not let anyone outside of the body of Christ (Judaizers, unbelievers) judge us in those matters. The only ones that can judge us are fellow believers.

Paul wrote this long after the Sabbath was supposedly abolished. Yet, he refers to it as a current, unfulfilled shadow of something to come in his future, namely, the thousand year millennial rest/Sabbath. When the millennium ends, the Sabbath will be fulfilled.

 

[gadar perets]

Nope. God writes His law on our hearts. Not the Mosaic law. He never wrote on my heart to have no other gods before Him because I wasn't raised in Egyptian Mythology. There was no need. I don't have any other god tempting me. Isn't a concern of mine. Nope. He places His Spirit within us and we walk with Him. If we are going to do something He disagrees with we will feel it in our spirit. This is the law on our hearts, a day by day communication. Not a "one-off" stagnant rule-set. God desires RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM, not RELATIONSHIP WITH RULES.

Yes, we will feel it in our spirit IF we know it is a law we broke. If we have been deceived into believing there is no Sabbath, then we will not be convicted.

Psalm 19:7 The law of YHWH is perfect, converting the soul (turning it away from sin and back to YHWH): the testimony (Ten Commandments) of YHWH is sure, making wise the simple.
​

I know idolatry is a sin and that it is against the Law of YHWH. Therefore, when presented with a future temptation to worship an idol, I will not only have the Spirit to warn me against it, but the Law as well. It is the Spirit that causes me to obey the Law under the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:27).

 

[gadar perets]

Yabut since He's the Lord of the Sabbath He could get away with it.

He could get away with sin???? Yeshua was sinless. He never broke any commandment.

 

[gadar perets]

But it seems to me some are suggesting noachide law for Gentiles and Torah for Jews making a breach ...

I don't find "Noahide law" in Scripture. That is man-made nonsense. Torah is for all.

Here is Paul’s true heart concerning Torah:


“Seeing it is one Elohim, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void [Torah] through faith? Elohim forbid: yea, we establish [Torah]. (Romans 3:30-31)

“And this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all that has been written in the [Torah] and in the Prophets, (Acts 24:14)

“And we know that the [Torah] is good if one uses it legitimately (not as a means for salvation, but as a fruit of salvation). (1 Timothy 1:8) parenthesis mine

“For we know that the Torah is Spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. (Romans 7:14) (many in the churches believe the Torah/law is carnal and that they are so spiritual).

“For I delight in the [Torah] of Elohim according to the inward man (Romans 7:22)

“Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the [Torah]. (Romans 13:10)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

He could get away with sin???? Yeshua was sinless. He never broke any commandment.

He inaugerated the kingdom of God and in doing so claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath while breaking the Pharisiac law. What part do you think was breaking of the law of God? Obviously none of it. He wasn't doing things according to the original nor according to the lawmakers. But according to man's reasoning He was defying the covenant.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Thanks for being more precise than just saying the whole NT or the whole letter to the Galatians.

I see you use a distorted translation of the Greek which really reads;

αG3739 WHICH εστινG2076 [G5748] ARE σκιαG4639 A SHADOW τωνG3588 OF THINGS μελλοντωνG3195 [G5723] TO COME; τοG3588 BUT δεG1161 THE σωμαG4983 BODY "IS" τουG3588 OF THE χριστουG5547 CHRIST.​

I highlighted all you added words in red:

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
​

The correct English translation of Colossians 2:16-17 is;

Let no man therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of Christ.
​

What is the "body of Christ"? The "church" (Colossians 1:18, 24; 2:19). Paul is saying to not let anyone outside of the body of Christ (Judaizers, unbelievers) judge us in those matters. The only ones that can judge us are fellow believers.

Paul wrote this long after the Sabbath was supposedly abolished. Yet, he refers to it as a current, unfulfilled shadow of something to come in his future, namely, the thousand year millennial rest/Sabbath. When the millennium ends, the Sabbath will be fulfilled.

Nope, your conclusion doesn't make sense to the context of the chapter. Verse 8 talks of being taken captive by traditions. Verses 20-23 discuss rules, unnecessary rules. The context helps the translation. But even with your translation, the sabbath was fulfilled in Christ.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Yes, we will feel it in our spirit IF we know it is a law we broke. If we have been deceived into believing there is no Sabbath, then we will not be convicted.

Psalm 19:7 The law of YHWH is perfect, converting the soul (turning it away from sin and back to YHWH): the testimony (Ten Commandments) of YHWH is sure, making wise the simple.
​

I know idolatry is a sin and that it is against the Law of YHWH. Therefore, when presented with a future temptation to worship an idol, I will not only have the Spirit to warn me against it, but the Law as well. It is the Spirit that causes me to obey the Law under the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:27).

When have you ever been tempted to worship an idol in the very literal sense? My guess is never. This is because the laws were for the Israelites who were tempted.

We don't feel it in our spirit because of a law we broke! Unless you mean the law of love, which is the foundation of good relationship. We feel it in our spirit because THE LIVING GOD lives in us, is He just a list of rules? Of course not, He convicts us of righteousness first and foremost as we walk with Him and talk with Him and make decisions in Him.

 

[gadar perets]

He inaugerated the kingdom of God and in doing so claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath while breaking the Pharisiac law. What part do you think was breaking of the law of God? Obviously none of it. He wasn't doing things according to the original nor according to the lawmakers. But according to man's reasoning He was defying the covenant.

You are the one who said we couldn't keep the Sabbath unless we stayed in our tent all day. That was false. Yeshua proved it was false by being out of his tent or house on Sabbath. Yeshua did everything by the book of the Law.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

You are the one who said we couldn't keep the Sabbath unless we stayed in our tent all day. That was false. Yeshua proved it was false by being out of his tent or house on Sabbath. Yeshua did everything by the book of the Law.

Exactly, in not keeping the Sabbath according to law. Man was not made for the sabbath. The Sabbath was made for mankind, to ensure they observed the rest which is found in Him. Being found in Him is abiding in Him, and that's not a one day a week thing. Thus the fulfillment of the law.

 

[gadar perets]

Nope, your conclusion doesn't make sense to the context of the chapter. Verse 8 talks of being taken captive by traditions. Verses 20-23 discuss rules, unnecessary rules. The context helps the translation. But even with your translation, the sabbath was fulfilled in Christ.

In verses 4 and 8 Paul warns the Colossians about deceivers. Then again, in verse 18, Paul gives his final warning about these same deceivers. In what way were they trying to deceive the Colossians? Verse 8 tells us that they were trying to exalt the traditions of men over the Messiah (verses 8 & 19).

Notice carefully the context; the traditions of men in verse 8, 18, and 22. The verses that occur between 8 and 22 must be understood based on the context of the traditions of men.

Now we can understand the key word in Colossians 2:14, "ordinances." The Greek word for ordinances here is a form of the root word "dogma" which means man-made rules, laws, commandments, precepts, etc. Paul is not talking about Yahweh's ordinances in this verse. He is talking about man's ordinances or traditions. This same word is used in Colossians 2:20 pertaining to the doctrines and commandments of men; in Luke 2:1 pertaining to a decree from Caesar Augustus; in Acts 17:7 pertaining to a decree from Caesar; and in Ephesians 2:15. It always pertains to man's commandments, not Yahweh's. Compare the word dogma with the Greek word that pertains to Yahweh's ordinances, "dikaioma."

This word dikaioma was used in Luke 1:6 pertaining to the ordinances of Yahweh and in Hebrews 9:1,10 pertaining once again to Yahweh's ordinances. Therefore, Paul is saying in verse 14 that the traditions and commandments of men are the issue, not Yahweh's laws. But what was nailed to the cross? The Greek construction shows that the "handwriting" was nailed, not the ordinances. The handwriting or, in Greek, the "cheirographon" was a certificate of debt. Whenever a man sins against Yahweh his sin is imputed against him (Romans 4:7,8). When men exalt the traditions of men over the commandments of Yahweh, as the Pharisees did, for example, they sin against Yahweh. The Messiah became sin for us and when He was nailed to the tree so were the sins that were imputed against us. Yahweh's holy ordinances were not nailed to the tree, the certificate of debt resulting in our death sentence was nailed to the tree. That is why Paul said the Colossians were "dead in your sins" in verse 13. The principalities and powers of verse 15 caused the people to sin by their man-made laws but Messiah was victorious over them.

It was the deceivers of verses 4,8, and 18 that were judging the Colossians regarding the things mentioned in verse 16. They had been imposing their man-made commandments and traditions upon the Colossians. Paul told them not to allow anyone outside the body of Christ to judge them concerning those matters.

 

[gadar perets]

When have you ever been tempted to worship an idol in the very literal sense? My guess is never. This is because the laws were for the Israelites who were tempted

The law against idolatry is for all believers in Messiah Yeshua, not just Israelites (Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21).