Should flag burners lose citizenship?

[PeachyKeane]

no it certainly is not.

You keep saying it is!

 

[dogs4thewin]

And in the place where you are?

I am not sure about GA law.

 

[USincognito]

You never see conservatives burning the American flag, not even when we have a president that is actively against us, such as the Obama admin has been.

No, they just fly it upside down in a crass mockery of the flag code.

 

[PeachyKeane]

none burning a flag and killing someone are NOT equal offenses they never have been and never should be.

But the number of lives we're prepared to trade for burning a piece of fabric depends on how many people are willing to fight for that flag and many people who have died for that flag.

 

[PeachyKeane]

I am not sure about GA law.

Yes, that's my point.

 

[fargonic]

If my country is made up of people who would rather defend a scrap of cloth versus the ideals of our bill of rights I think we've lost our country completely.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You keep saying it is!

I NEVER said that I said that some may consider it so which MAY result in a lesser sentence.

 

[fargonic]

But the number of lives we're prepared to trade for burning a piece of fabric depends on how many people are willing to fight for that flag and many people who have died for that flag.

Has anyone in the USA ever died for "the flag"? Just curious.

 

[dogs4thewin]

But the number of lives we're prepared to trade for burning a piece of fabric depends on how many people are willing to fight for that flag and many people who have died for that flag.

What do you mean trade? I have NEVER suggested killing anyone for burning the flag. In fact I do not even support the death penalty for ANY crime.

 

[PeachyKeane]

I NEVER said that I said that some may consider it so which MAY result in a lesser sentence.

And some may consider it more, which might result in a harsher sentence.

 

[Desk trauma]

If one burns a rainbow LGBTQ flag or a Quran, I am sure the position would be different.

My position is the same. I cannot speak for others.

 

[dogs4thewin]

And some may consider it more, which might result in a harsher sentence.

that too, is a fact

 

[Desk trauma]

I find a few months to a year incarcerate makes a good MAX punishment for what I feel should be a crime.

It should be a crime, punishable by a year in jail, for me to set fire to fabric that I own?

 

[Gene2memE]

People are ignoring some fundamental legal principles here.

The state has a vested interest in protecting and promoting the general welfare of its populace.
Actions that carry legal censure or penalties are typically (but not exclusively) those that would violate said welfare.

The state also has a vested interest in preserving freedom of speech (it's enshrined in the US constitution after all).
Freedom of speech has been repeatedly interpreted by US constitutional scholars to include freedom of action and expression (provided the welfare principle is not violated).

So, does burning the US flag violate the welfare of the populace? I think not.
Does burning the US flag constitute protected free speech? I think so.

It could be argued that flag burning falls under the concept of 'dangerous speech', also known as "yelling fire in a crowded theater", or incitement to violence.

I think that either interpretation runs into a lot of difficulties - in order to sustain a case, it would be necessary to prove that a flag burning was - to use the words of the US Supreme Court - "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action".

There's a LOT of slop in that language, so much so that it would make pursuing flag burning cases under current laws virtually impossible.


Let me also put out a hypothetical though. What if Mr Trump had called for the jailing and/or loss of citizenship for individuals who avoided paying a fair share of taxes? That's something I could get behind. I think that avoiding paying a fair amount taxes violates the general welfare of the populace to a vastly greater degree than burning a national symbol.

 

[JackRT]

People are ignoring some fundamental legal principles here.

The state has a vested interest in protecting and promoting the general welfare of its populace.
Actions that carry legal censure or penalties are typically (but not exclusively) those that would violate said welfare.

The state also has a vested interest in preserving freedom of speech (it's enshrined in the US constitution after all).
Freedom of speech has been repeatedly interpreted by US constitutional scholars to include freedom of action and expression (provided the welfare principle is not violated).

So, does burning the US flag violate the welfare of the populace? I think not.
Does burning the US flag constitute protected free speech. I think so.

It could be argued that flag burning falls under the concept of 'dangerous speech', also known as "yelling fire in a crowded theater", or incitement to violence.

I think that either interpretation runs into a lot of difficulties - in order to sustain a case, it would be necessary to prove that a flag burning was - to use the words of the US Supreme Court - "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action".

There's a LOT of slop in that language, so much so that it would make pursuing flag burning cases under current laws virtually impossible.


Let me also put out a hypothetical though. What if Mr Trump had called for the jailing and/or loss of citizenship for individuals who avoided paying a fair share of taxes? That's something I could get behind. I think that avoiding paying a fair amount taxes violate the general welfare of the populace to a vastly greater degree than burning a national symbol.

Well said!

 

[rjs330]

So Trump,shares an opinion about something and suddenly he's Hitler? I'm sure some believe that when he gets into office he's going to,start pushing for this, but I don't believe that one bit. Scalia had the same opinion but he understood he couldn't do that. I'm sure Trump is the same way. It's no big deal. Really.

I'm no Trump fan but at this point I have no reason to really believe he would actually try to do,something like this.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Gene2memE]

Calling for flag burners to be jailed and/or stripped of citizenship is the sort of tactic that is commonplace to authoritarian, nationalistic regimes.

It's a combination of an appeal to nationalism (flag as a national symbol) and a divide and conquer tactic, setting up a 'them' (the flag burners) and and 'us' (the non-flag burners, who aren't criminal and love 'merica).

It's also, once again, revealing of the startling level of ignorance that Mr Trump has concerning issues about civil liberties, freedom of expression and state power.

Troubling, to say the least.

Australia sends its concerns.

 

[RDKirk]

It depends there are MANY people willing to fight for that flag and MANY people who have died for that flag.

No, "many people" have the ability to parse the difference between a symbol and reality. I don't think you're going to find a soldier today, for instance, who is going to dash from cover under fire to retrieve a flag. Retrieve a buddy, quite likely. Even throw himself on a grenade to protect his buddies. But throw himself on a grenade to protect the flag? Nope.

From the discussions I've had with the combat veterans in my family (all of the men two years older than I am), there isn't much fighting for something as ethereal as "country" either. Not at the moment--they're fighting for each other.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

So Trump,shares an opinion about something and suddenly he's Hitler? I'm sure some believe that when he gets into office he's going to,start pushing for this, but I don't believe that one bit. Scalia had the same opinion but he understood he couldn't do that. I'm sure Trump is the same way. It's no big deal. Really.

I'm no Trump fan but at this point I have no reason to really believe he would actually try to do,something like this.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

It actually is a very big deal for the president to suggest people should lose their citizenship for exercising one of their most fundamental rights of free expression.

Consider Obama suggesting firearm owners should lose their citizenship because they one day exercised their right and bought a gun. Of course there's no reason to think he'd actually do that but would you just wave that away the same as you did for Trump?

Really, it's not what the president thinks he can or cannot do that worries me. The law will take care of that.

What worries me is what his followers are willing to allow.

 

[RDKirk]

Has anyone in the USA ever died for "the flag"? Just curious.

I think there are some Civil War stories about it. That was back when there was a teenager assigned to do nothing but carry the flag into battle.