Delusion to think that God changes that which He has written in stone and transferred it to the heart of His followers.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ?
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dfw69
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I don't understand this saying above ...what do you mean?
I believe his laws written in our heart are not obedience to old ordinances but new ones namely love for one another while in the flesh ....but a time will come when we are changed to literally become immortal... perhaps that is when the laws of god are observed perfectly... and the scriptures are fulfilled
Personally IMO I believe you are Jewish from a Christian persective.. and your love for the law separates us .. the gap between Jews and Gentiles remain when it should not in Christ ... but it is what it is
we love Christ who is our law...but I should not continue.. I just wanted to clarify on your post earlier...peace sister in Christ
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While it is true that the New Earth is this same earth - that is made new and inhabited for all eternity. Yet during the 1000 years the land has rest "I looked and behold there was no man" - no humans on earth at that time.
Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.
Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.
] Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,
It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe
Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.
Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh
Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.
It is 1000 years of desolation - where the land rests.
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The Mosaic Law was given to the Israelites.
The New Covenant is for us today and is different to the Mosaic Covenant.
All the laws, including the ceremonial law of the Sabbath, no longer apply as laws.
The Sabbath was a sign of resting in Jesus, just like the day of atonement pointed to Jesus.
Both no longer apply.
That being said, there is no problem keeping a special day as a Sabbath so long as one does not do it to earn favour with God. And even worse, believing it is a requirement for being a special remnant of God.
I encourage you to read Galatians about 10 times in a row. Also read the first 8 chapters of Romans many many times over. Pray and read. Don't ask for advice from anyone during this time on how to understand, just pray and let the Holy Spirit teach.
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The New Covenant is in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and is given specifically "to the House of Israel and the house of Judah".
Bible details matter.
Until you read the Bible.
In the NT - sin is still "defined" this way "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 NKJV
notice how explicitly NT authors not only affirm the Commandments of God - but quote from them to help those who might wonder if the TEN Commandments should be included?
================= notice the "Bible details"
In Matt 22 Jesus affirms OT - LAW and scripture
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
Matt 22 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Matt 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ (Deut 6:5) 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ (Lev 19:18) 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
The firm foundation for the LAW and the prophets - LOVE.
TEN COMMANDMENTS AFFIRMED in NT
Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said;Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life 17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments; 18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones? And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself
"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6
"If you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -
Rom 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
That same law - same chapter
"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
Any part of scripture read could fall under that title.
Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
=================================
Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
Rom 13 NKJV
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Rom 13 HCSB - Holman Bible
8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments:
Do not commit adultery;
do not murder;
do not steal;
do not covet;
and whatever other commandment—all are summed up by this: Love your neighbor as yourself.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law.
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
...
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
"Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
"ALL have sinned" Romans 3:23
Both Jews AND Gentiles are explicitly included in Romans 2 --
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
Eph 6: 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), -- the 5th commandment in that still-valid "unit of ten" is the "FIRST commandment with a promise.
James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty
============================
"the Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23
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Except that Matt 22 tells us that the OT text is supported by the immovable foundation of Love for God Deut 6:4-5 and Love for our neighbor Lev 19:18. Instead of deleting the OT - these form the foundation for it.
And of course we have 1 John 5:2-4 telling us that the way that we know we love God and love the children of God is by the fact that we "Keep His Commandments"
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Is 56:1-8 gentiles specifically blessed for keeping the weekly Sabbath.
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship"
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
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Copy and paste much?
If sin is acting against the law, then all tribes and nations without the law have never sinned.
Ponder this.
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dfw69
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Was sabbath keeping a noachide commandment or added?
A rest day was a good thing cause it established rest for mankind..unhearted leaders gave no rest from labors .. god fearing men gave rest
But that was in an old covenant not the new covenant. where does it say to keep the sabbath in the new covenant? That is, after Christ completed the law and dies and arose from the grave?
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dfw69
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These " Form" the foundation of a new covenant not renewed as some teach ..at least that's what we believe...
We believe" his commandments" refers to Christ new commandments not gods Torah which is the old covenant
Believe me ... if I believe god wanted me to serve his Torah ..I would.... but my beliefs put my trust in Christ fulfilling it for me and to return to the law is to disrespect my savior... you probably will think I'm decieved for doing so but I must follow my heart and my faith bro ... so we don't need to continue in this conversation...
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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So you think the other 9 are also ceremonial and do not apply?
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Hahaha. Funny question.
I grew up in a family of four males and one female. Does that make my mum a male? I mean, all the others in our family are male, so surely she must be too.
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If the basic ten written in stone is not transferred into your heart, all the old or new ordinances won't mean a thing because without the foundation you will have ordinances that flap in the winds of doctrine without anchor.
Perfectly isn't the observance of legalities, but the observance of intent and heart of love towards God and our fellow man. My love for the law is a reflection of my love for God. In mediating upon the law, I learn more about the character of God and His infinite wisdom reflecting in love and mercy upon which I am to emulate as Yeshua did.
The estrangement you have for the law and Yeshua tears at the very fabric of who He is.
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gadar perets
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Yeshua has given us a spiritual rest from sin and from striving to be justified by works. He has NOT given us physical rest from our labors. We still get tired after six days of work and must rest, but that rest is commanded to take place on the day our Creator blessed and sanctified for it (the 7th day). Also, the Sabbath rest was for the benefit of animals as well. Is it OK for farmers today to work their animals seven days a week? That is unrighteousness and merciless. The same holds true for any employer that works his laborers seven days a week.
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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I think that your response was one of the most absurd "analogies" I have ever seen someone try to use on CF.
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dfw69
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I'd like to know your opinion on the matter ...
Personally I reject any law that has a penalty on it...it's against my religion which says judge not and condemn not
It seems to me that Jews only had 4 commandments for us....acts 15:28-29
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dfw69
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all 10 commandments are fulfilled by Christ for the believers who puts their trust in him
And he give us new commandments to obey which if we obey we break none of the 10 commandments
If I love Jesus I love god
If I love my enemies I judge not and condemn not
If I love my brothers I will not sleep with his wife not steal nor kill ...see?
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