The Trinity - Help Me Understand

[seeking.IAM]

Liquid, steam, ice..all different yet all the same. Water.

So if God changes from Father to Son to Spirit it fulfills your analogy but is the heresy known as modalism.

Perhaps you might want to add something to the analogy.

The analogy helps me but I do not see it as modalism as you do. Modalism denies three separate beings while I do not.

 

[JackRT]

I too have struggled with the concept of "Trinity". It is certainly true that it was a concept that was completely unknown to the early Christians.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia: "The formulation ‘one God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formula that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." – (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The "explanation" in the Athanasian Creed serves only to daze and confuse with its intricate Greek philosophical phrasing.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

To say that the Trinity is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Sophia / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.

Yes, I do realize that this is a form of the heresy of modalism but it is the only explanation that even comes close to making sense of the Trinity for me.

John Spong also wrote something that makes good sense to me.

Holy Trinity is not a description of God, but a description of a human experience of God. The Holy Trinity is a doctrine, adopted by the Christian Church in the 4th century CE, as a way of processing and understanding their experience with God. It is a product of dualistic Greek thinking which separated God from humanity; the holy from the profane; the flesh from the spirit, and the body from the soul. That was a cultural mindset and no one in that era of history knew how to step outside that frame of reference. However, that frame of reference died in that period of history we call the Enlightenment, leaving modern Christians with the impossible task of fitting a 4th century doctrine into a 21st century world view out of which it does not come and to which it cannot speak. Does that mean that the Trinitarian experience is wrong? No, I don’t think it means that, but it does mean that the Trinitarian language, which we use as we to seek to relate the Trinitarian experience is simply irrelevant.

 

[truefiction1]

It's really not too complicated. God the Father has a Word and a Spirit. The Word is generated (begotten) of the Father from eternity and the Spirit proceeds from the Father from all eternity. If we were uncreated beings,(but we are not) then the same could be said of us, because we also have word (cognitions/thoughts that take the form of language/words) and spirit (energy, or emotive force/motivations).

In God, however, the three parts are three Divine Persons, who are inseparable persons forming One God. Also, this "doctrine" is not optional for Christians, because Father, Word, and Spirit is how God has been revealed in the Scripture and in Jesus Christ. It certainly isn't "irrelevant" if it is God's chosen Revelation, and it certainly isn't irrelevant to the experience of contemporary Christians. The Word (Christ) reveals the Father because He and the Father are One. If we don't have the Word, (in other words, if we do not worship Him as God, by the Holy Spirit revealing to us that He is God the Word) then we don't have God the Father. Those are Christ's words, not mine.

 

[dcalling]

Well, I can certainly understand your confusion, as the Trinity is one of the most difficult topics to get your head around. It took me awhile to work through it, I came to a place where I'm comfortable with it and I'll do my best to share it with you.

The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.

Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The following chart should help you to see how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture. The list is not exhaustive, only illustrative.

View attachment 185960
The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).​

Thank you very much, it definitely help calm some of my confusions. I still don't totally understand but guess that is OK.

 

[Anguspure]

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

The best (but also possibly the most technical) description of trinity I've heard came from a Jesuit Priest that I had a chance to talk to one day. I asked him what his thoughts on the subject where and he said it like this:

God, the I AM, exists and anything he chooses to perceive in His mind also exists.

In the first instance God perceives Himself (I AM), and this exists.

The way in which He exists in His own mind is distinct from His actual existence and therefore 2 entities are begotten: the one who exists and the auto perception of the one who exists.

Because the auto perception of God that exists in the mind of God actually exists, 2 beings exist. But these are one and the same.

The 2 beings (The I Am and the expression of I AM) now relate to one another and the relationship between the 2 is perceived by both, this now in itself exists an as all relationships do, takes on the character of the combination of the parties to the relationship.

In this instance, for God, the relationship itself therefore also becomes God.

In this description then we have the Father (The Existent one), the Son (the Fathers perception of Himself) and the Holy Spirit (the Relationship between the Father and the Son).

 

[JackRT]

The best (but also possibly the most technical) description of trinity I've heard came from a Jesuit Priest that I had a chance to talk to one day. I asked him what his thoughts on the subject where and he said it like this:

God, the I AM, exists and anything he chooses to perceive in His mind also exists.

In the first instance God perceives Himself (I AM), and this exists.

The way in which He exists in His own mind is distinct from His actual existence and therefore 2 entities are begotten: the one who exists and the auto perception of the one who exists.

Because the auto perception of God that exists in the mind of God actually exists, 2 beings exist. But these are one and the same.

The 2 beings (The I Am and the expression of I AM) now relate to one another and the relationship between the 2 is perceived by both, this now in itself exists an as all relationships do, takes on the character of the combination of the parties to the relationship.

In this instance, for God, the relationship itself therefore also becomes God.

In this description then we have the Father (The Existent one), the Son (the Fathers perception of Himself) and the Holy Spirit (the Relationship between the Father and the Son).

This process could be carried forward ad infinitum because there is no good reason it should end at three. BTW I have had a Jesuit education.

 

[archer75]

I am not sure this post will be of any use, but...I have found that no logical analysis of the Trinity does me more than a little good. The best I can say is that such descriptions (and I appreciate some on this very thread) point me to something that is beyond reason. I think this is distinct from saying "hey, it's just a mystery". By keeping my mind on this matter, I feel like I have improved the relationship between my own reason and understanding and can speak the Apostles' Creed more sincerely.

 

[Radagast]

* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

The key idea of Christianity is that Jesus was God and man both. The Gospel of John is quite clear on that, although it's hard to understand how that works (let me recommend one of my favourite books, by the way, Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis).

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

You seem to be talking about 1 John 5:7-8 ("For there are three that testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."), where the bold words are not in any ancient Greek manuscripts.

But that's the only such verse. Matthew 28:19, for example (Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit") is found in all ancient Greek manuscripts.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me

I feel the same way, actually. But that's not what Christianity is about.

 

[Anguspure]

This process could be carried forward ad infinitum because there is no good reason it should end at three. BTW I have had a Jesuit education.

If we are being philosophical, I suppose Okams razor applies here.

 

[AvgJoe]

Thank you very much, it definitely help calm some of my confusions. I still don't totally understand but guess that is OK.

You're welcome, I'm glad that it helped. Yes it is ok, I still don't fully understand either, and doubt that any of us will on this side of glory.

 

[SolomonVII]

I am not sure this post will be of any use, but...I have found that no logical analysis of the Trinity does me more than a little good. The best I can say is that such descriptions (and I appreciate some on this very thread) point me to something that is beyond reason. I think this is distinct from saying "hey, it's just a mystery". By keeping my mind on this matter, I feel like I have improved the relationship between my own reason and understanding and can speak the Apostles' Creed more sincerely.

The logical gymnastics involved may well be interesting intellectual exercises.
But I think that Trinity does not so much describe a mystery, but the existential fact of the historical person of Jesus incarnated into the world at a particular place and time. This is as tangible as any description of God that there can be. It is the mystery of God revealed in a way that can be touched and tasted and seen and heard and experienced, as much as we can experience any other sentient being.
As a person, Jesus experiences the Father as the Jewish people always have, through prayer and ritual and traditions and faith and belief.
The logical implications of this kind of relationship of God to God, Father to Son, and Holy Spirit, is the mystery.
Bu the existential fact of Second Person of Trinity is as real and as tangible as God has ever been.Trinity describes a relationship that is derived from tangible experience.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing Christian music (Hillsong) for the first time and just crying, I don't know why it just overwhelmed my soul.

In school assemblies the local vicar used to come in and give talks. Every time he spoke about the Bible and Jesus it just made sense I never even questioned it.

When I became a teenager I got involved with a local Christian youth group and became a Christian. It all just made sense, I can't say the concept of God was ever doubted, even to this day I have always believed in God and could never be considered an atheist or even agnostic.

Anyway, I got baptised and everything went well for a few years I was heavily involved with the church and what not, then I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I stopped reading the Bible and living a Christian lifestyle. I NEVER stopped believing I just used to kid myself and cherry pick what I believed because I KNEW I was living against God's word.

Anyway fast forward I'm 26 now last year I started looking at religion again and reading the Bible and taking things more seriously. Cut a long story short I ended up exploring Islam and so much made sense to me.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer. Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).

The Trinity essentially means "Three in One".

A. "The Trinity in Science"
There are many examples of the Trinity within nature.

Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
Colors of White Light = Red, Blue, Green.
Man's Formation = Dust, Mist (i.e. Water), Breadth of Life.
Man (Made in God's Image) = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.
Time = Past, Present, Future.
Earth = Crust, Mantle, Core
3 Major Types of Light in the Sky = Sun, Moon, Stars
3 Major Values = Black, Grey, White

The Trinity, Godhead, or Triune Nature of God is simply this...

God = Father, the Son, Holy Spirit.

Oh, and despite the fact that "Siamese twins" are the result of the fall of man (or sin), they do tell us that a life can be one body and yet still have two or more minds to it.

However, unlike Siamese twins, just to be clear, the Lord Our God is...

One God with three distinct but connected persons acting in perfect harmony or of one mind.

But make no mistake, the creation itself declares the glory of the Godhead.

For the Scriptures say,

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20).


B. "The Trinity and the Majority of the World's Views"
Also, the majority of your Biblical Cults and the Atheistic World do not believe Jesus was God Almighty in the flesh. In other words, if you believe Jesus is God Almighty, you believe in God's Triune Nature. That is why God made such a big deal out of being resurrected "three days" later after being crucified on the cross thru the flesh of a man. The Lord was declaring that He was not a mere man but that He was God Almighty!

Jesus said if you do not believe "I AM" he, you will die in your sins. Jesus later explained to a crowd of Pharisees of how he was able to know of Abraham before he was born. Jesus said he was the "I AM" to them and they all went ape crazy at hearing that and wanted to stone him for it (See John 8). For the "I AM" is the name of God in Exodus chapter 3.

In other words, not believing WHO Jesus really is a salvation issue.


C. "The Trinity in Scripture"
The one verse in Scripture that teaches the Trinity is 1 John 5:7.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." ~ (1 John 5:7)

The Bible also teaches that there is a plurality to GOD.

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills within the Godhead (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).


However, the best evidence for the Trinity is figuring out who Jesus Christ is. Who is Jesus? Jesus is God Almighty because the Scriptures declare that He is God and that He is the Almighty.

Here is a great article on a list of verses that tell us this.
(See #45 and other numbers below).

160 Reasons Jesus Christ is Almighty God

By Thomas Golda

Only because Jesus Christ is Almighty God do we have reassurance that He can save His elect from eternal damnation and eternal torment.

1. Jesus IS the visible image of the Invisible God - Colossians 1:15, II Corinthians 4:4...to see Jesus is to see the Invisible God - Mankind was created IN the image of God - Genesis 1:26...Jesus IS the image of God. To see Jesus is to see the Invisible God in the flesh.
2. Jesus was conceived by God - Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:20. Since Mary was his earthy mother, that makes Jesus fully human..since God was His physical Father, since Jesus did not have an earthy father, that makes Jesus fully God. He was fully man and fully God. The Great Godman.
3. To see Jesus' face is to see the glory of God - II Corinthians 4:6
4. Jesus "being in the form of God" makes Him God - Philippians 2:6
5. Jesus being the brightness of the Father's glory - Hebrews 1:3
6. Jesus is the exact image of the Father's Person - Hebrews 1:3
7. That is why to "see Jesus" is to "see the Father" - John 14:9, John 12:45
8. That is why Jesus said He and His Father are one - John 10:30
9. Jesus is IN the bosom of the Father - John 1:18. Not "on" the bosom"..not "near" the bosom...IN the bosom...He is in the center of the
Father. They are "one"
10. He is called EVERLASTING Father - Isaiah 9:6
11. Jesus deserves the SAME honour as the Father - John 5:23
12.Jesus was WORSHIPPED - Matthew 2:11, Matthew 9:12, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Luke 24:52..Since only God is to be
worshipped - Matthew 4:10..that means Jesus is God.
13. Even angels WORSHIP Jesus - Hebrews 1:6
14. Heaven falls down before the Lamb - Revelation 5:8
15. Jesus Created ALL things - Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, John 1:3, Ephesians 3:9 ....God created all things - Acts 14:15, Isaiah
45:18, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 42:5. Jesus is God
16. Jesus also made the world - John 1:10. Jesus is God - Isaiah 44:18
17. Jesus created all things for HIMSELF - Colossians 1:16, Proverbs 16:4(Jesus is God)
18. By Jesus all things consist - Colossians 1:17
19. Jesus upholds all things - Hebrews 1:3
20. Jesus is before all things - Colossians 1:17
21. Jesus rules heaven and earth - Matthew 28:18. Jesus is God - II Chronicles 29:11
22. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath - Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5
23. Jesus called Himself the Great "I AM" - John 8:58, John 8:24...a quote from Exodus 3:14
24. In the body of Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead - Colossians 2:9
25. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are THREE and they are ONE - I John 5:7
26. And this is all why Jesus is EQUAL WITH GOD - Philippians 2:6
27. Jesus was "God manifest in the flesh" - I Timothy 3:16
28. God was in Christ - Galatians 3:17, II Corinthians 5:19
29. Jesus is the Power of God and the Wisdom of God - I Corinthians 1:24
30. Jesus "only" hath immortality - I Timothy 6:16
31. Jesus is Lord of the living and the dead - Romans 14:9
32. Jesus is called the Saviour - Luke 2:11, Titus 1:4, Titus 2:13, Titus 3:3, II Peter 1:1, II Peter 1:11, II Peter 2:20, II Peter 3:18, I John
4:14
33. Only Jehovah God alone is the Saviour - Isaiah 43:11, Isaiah 45:15 , Hosea 13:4, I Timothy 2:2, Jude 1:25...that means Jesus is God.
34. Jesus ALONE is the Great Judge - John 5:22. The Judge is God - Hebrews 12:23, Revelation 18:8, Hebrews 13:4, Romans 2:3,5
Jesus is God. All the verses in the Bible that talk about God being the Judge refer to Jesus, since He alone judges. The Father
judges no man - John 5:22.
35. Jesus has the keys of hell and of death - Revelation 1:18. The one that can cast into hell is to be FEARED - Matthew 10:28, Luke
12:5 Only God is to be feared - Rev 14:7
36. Jesus is from EVERLASTING - Micah 5:2, Isaiah 9:6
37. Jesus has NO BEGINNING of days - Hebrews 7:3
38. Jesus is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever - Hebrews 13:8. A quote from Psalm 102:27. Jesus is God.
39. Jesus' is in the midst or the center of the throne of God - Rev 1:6
40. Jesus has the Greatest Name above every name ever named - Philippians 2:9
41. Jesus' name is the Greatest in the world to come as well - Ephesians 1:21
42. And it is before name of JESUS, not any other name including Jehovah, that the peoples of the earth and heaven and bowing before
- Philippians 2:10. Jesus is God - Isaiah 45:22-23
43. Only by the name JESUS can one be saved - Acts 4:10-12
44. Jesus is called the Alpha and Omega - Revelation 1:11
45. Jesus who is the Alpha and Omega is the ALMIGHTY - Revelation 1:7-8
46. Jesus is called the King of kings - I Timothy 6:15. Jesus is the King - Zechariah 9:9. The King is God - I Timothy 1:17. Jesus is God
47. Jesus is called Lord of lords - I Timothy 6:15. God is called Lord of lords - Deut 10:17. Jesus is God
48. Christ is called the ROCK - I Corinthians 10:4. That is who Israel followed. The ROCK who Israel followed was GOD - Deut 32:3-4.
God is the Rock - Psalm 18:2 and only God is the Rock - Psalm 18:31. Christ is God.
49. Jesus calls Himself the FIRST AND THE LAST - Revelation 1:11,17. Only GOD is the FIRST AND THE LAST - Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah
48:12. Jesus is God.
50. Jesus knows all things (OMNIPOTENT) - John 2:24-25, John 4:29, John 6:64, John 16:30
51. Jesus is OMNIPRESENT - Matthew 18:20, Matthew 28:20
52. Jesus' body fills all (is omnipresent) - Ephesians 1:23
53. Jesus knows the hearts of men - Revelation 2:23
54. Jesus dwells in the hearts - Ephesians 3:17
55. And "liveth" in the believers - Galatians 2:20
56. Jesus knows the thoughts of men - Matthew 9:4, Luke 6:8
57. And Jesus will judge the "secrets" of men - Romans 2:16
58. God shed His blood - Acts 20:28
59. The cross is the "power of God" - I Corinthians 1:17-18
60. Jesus called the Kingdom of God His Kingdom - John 18:36
61. Jesus is the "Deliverer" of the believers from the wrath of God - I Thessalonians 1:10, Romans 11:26. Only God is the Deliverer from
the wrath of God - II Corinthians 1:9-10
62. In Jesus' name we TRUST - Ephesians 1:12-13, Matthew 12:21, Philippians 2:19. Only in God do we trust - Psalm 4:5, 7:1, 31:1,
73:28, Isaiah 26:4. Jesus is God.
63. Jesus is the TRUTH - John 14:6. Jesus is God - Psalm 31:5
64. Jesus sent the prophets - Matthew 23:34...God sent the prophets - Jeremiah 7:25. Jesus is God who sent the prophets.
65. Jesus is the Stone of stumbling - I Peter 2:8. A prophesy from Isaiah 8:13-14. God is the stone of stumbling. Jesus is God.
66. God is the fountain of living waters - Jeremiah 17:13....Jesus is the fountain of living waters - John 4:10-14
67. Jesus brings reward to the wicked for their works - Matthew 16:27. Jesus is God - Psalm 54:4-5, II Samuel 3:39.
68. The reward of salvation is "with Jesus" - Revelation 22:12. Jesus is God - Isaiah 62:11, Isaiah 40:10
69. Jesus gave power to His people - Luke 9:1. Jesus is God - Psalm 68:35
70. Jesus is called the HOLY ONE - Acts 3:14. Jesus is God - Isaiah 30:15, Isaiah 40:25, Isaiah 41:14, Isaiah 43:15
71. Jesus is the light - John 8:12. Jesus is God - Psalm 27:1
72. Jesus is the Husband of believers - Revelation 19:7,9, 21:2, 21:9. Jesus is God - Isaiah 54:5
73. Jesus gives us rest - Matthew 11:28. Jesus is God - Exodus 33:14
74. Jesus gathers the sheep - John 10:16. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 34:11
75. Jesus seeks and saves that which is lost - Luke 19:10. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 34:16
76. Jesus is the Shepherd - John 10:11,14. Jesus is God - Psalm 23:1
77. Jesus feeds the people and causes them to sit down - Mark 8:5-10, Matthew 14:19-21. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 34:15
78. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin - I John 1:7. God cleanses from sin - Psalm 51:2, Ezekiel 36:25.. Jesus is God
79. Redemption is from Jesus Christ - Romans 3:24, Colossians 1:14. Redemption is from God - Psalm 130:7. Jesus is God
80. Christ is the Redeemer - Galatians 4:5, Galatians 3:13, Revelation 5:9, Titus 2:14. God is the Redeemer - Jeremiah 31:11, Isaiah
41:14, Isaiah 44:22, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 44:24. Jesus is God
81. Jesus wrote new commandments with His finger - John 8:5-9. This is to show that He is God who wrote the 10 commandments with
His finger - Exodus 31:18
82. The Bible declares God. That God is Jesus who is written in all the scriptures - Luke 24:27, Luke 24:44, John 5:39, John 5:46
83. ALL things are by Jesus - I Corinthians 8:6
84. John the Baptist, the voice in the wilderness prepared the coming of the Lord - Matthew 3:3. A quote from Isaiah 40:3...He prepared
the coming of Jehovah God!!!!
85. Jesus forgave sin - Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:5....and only GOD can forgive sins - Mark 2:7. Only God can forgive sin where they are
atoned for it. Jesus is God.
86. Jesus forgave sins and healed diseases - Matthew 9:6. Only God can do that - Psalm 103:3
87. Jesus calmed the storm - Matthew 8:26...Only God can - Psalm 107:25
88. God was pierced - Zechariah 12:10...quoted again in John 19:37. Jesus is God
89. God was priced at 30 pieces of silver - Zechariah 11:12-13...quoted again in Matthew 27:9....Jesus is God.
90. Jesus returns again with His saints - I Thess. 3:13. A fulfillment of Zechariah 14:5 that says GOD will come with His saints. Jesus is
God.
91. The Jews wanted Jesus killed for the crime of Blasphemy - Matthew 26:65. In their minds He claimed to be God - John 10:33, and
Equal with God - John 5:18 and forgave as only God can do - Mark 2:7, Luke 5:21...that was blasphemy is their eyes - Mark 2:7,
Luke 5:21. Jesus by His words and actions claimed to be God...and that is why He was found guilty by the Jews of blasphemy.
92. Jesus raised Himself from the dead - John 2:19-21. John 10:17-18
93. Jesus will raise all the dead - John 6:39-40,44. God raises the dead both physically and spiritually - Ezekiel 37:12-14. Jesus is God
94. The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are one and the same. Christ is God - Romans 8:9
95. Jesus quickens (which means to make alive) - John 5:21. Only God can make someone alive - Ezekiel 37:5-6,9. Only God can
quicken - Psalm 80:18. Jesus is God.
96. One cannot serve God and mammon - Matthew 6:24. Only God is to be served - Romans 1:9. The One we serve is Jesus Christ -
Colossians 3:24.
97. Jesus is the one who "justifies" - Galatians 2:17. ONLY GOD can justifieth - Romans 8:33. Jesus is God.
98. Jesus "reveals" truth - Luke 10:22, Matthew 11:27. Only GOD can reveal truth - Philippians 3:15, I Corinthians 2:10. Jesus is God.
99. God will not share His glory with another - Isaiah 42:8, 48:11. But the Father glorifies the Son - John 17:1,5, John 12:23, John 13:31-
32. Jesus is God and He is ONE with the Father.
100. ONLY in the name of JESUS is their salvation. There is salvation is NONE OTHER - Acts 4:10-12, II Timothy 2:10. And salvation
belongs to GOD - Psalm 3:8, Jonah 2:9, Lamentations 3:26, Isaiah 52:10, Psalm 51:14. Since only in the name of Jesus is there
salvation and salvation belongs to God, that simply means Jesus is God.
101. Jesus chooses the elect - John 15:16. Jesus is God - I Thess. 2:13, I Cor. 1:27
102. Men are Jesus' disciples - John 13:35, John 15:8. Jesus is God - Isaiah 8:16
103. Jesus' voice is the sound of many waters - Revelation 1:15. Jesus is Almighty God - Ezekiel 43:2.
104. Jesus' feet are like fine brass - Revelation 1:15. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 1:7, Ezekiel 1:28
105. Jesus' name is the Word of God - Revelation 19:13
106. All grace comes from God - I Peter 5:10. Jesus is that God where all grace comes from - Rev 22:21, Romans 16:20, I Thess. 5:28,
II Thess. 3:18
107. Jesus comes with clouds - Rev 1:7, Matthew 24:30 - Jesus is God - Isaiah 19:1, Jeremiah 4:13, Numbers 11:25
108. Jesus is called God - John 1:1, Hebrews 1:8
109. Jesus is called The Great God - Titus 2:13
110. Jesus is called The Mighty God - Isaiah 9:6
111. Jesus is called The True God - I John 5:20
112. Jesus is "God with us" - Matthew 1:21
113. Jesus is called "My God" - John 20:28. Since there is "no other God" - Isaiah 45:5,21-22..that means Jesus is that God.
114. Jesus is called "our hope" - I Timothy 1:1. We hope in Jesus - I Cor. 15:19. We are to only hope in God - I Peter 1:21, Psalm 38:15.
Jesus is God.
115. Christ is our life - Colossians 3:4. Jesus is God - Psalm 42:8
116. Jesus is called Faithful - Revelation 19:11. Jesus is God - Deut 7:9
117. Jesus is called True - Revelation 19:11. Jesus is God - Romans 3:4
118. Israel temped Christ - I Corinthians 10:9. Jesus is God - Deut 6:16, Numbers 14:22.
119. Christ sent serpents and destroyed Israel - I Cor 10:9. Jesus is God - Numbers 21:6-7
120. Jesus rebukes and chastens - Revelation 3:19 - Jesus is God - Hebrews 12:5-7, Proverbs 3:11-12.
121. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of faith - Hebrews 12:2
122. God said "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness" - Genesis 1:26. The plurality refers to the Trinity. This is not talking
about the angels or heavenly host. Angels cannot create life. Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that angels are made in the image of
God. Third, there is no indication that mankind is created in the image of angels.
123. The plurality of the Trinity is also referred to in Genesis 3:22 and Isaiah 6:8. Jesus is God.
124. Before Jesus became man, He had glory with the Father before the world was - John 17:5
125. All things are given into Jesus' hand - John 3:35
126. Jesus is described as "WHICH WAS" dead, and "IS" alive - Revelation 2:8. The one who "which was" and "which is" is Almighty
God - Revelation 4:8, Revelation 1:8. Jesus is God.
127. The "Great Day" of the Wrath of the Lamb - Revelation 6:16-17 is the "Great Day" of God Almighty - Revelation 16:14. Jesus is the
Lamb who is God Almighty.
128. Jesus is the King - I Timothy 6:15, John 18:37. Jesus is the King who is called the "only wise God" - I Timothy 1:17
129. Jesus is called the "Just One" - Acts 22:14. Jesus is God - Isaiah 45:21
130. Jesus "gives" repentance - Acts 5:31, Acts 3:26. Jesus is God - II Timothy 2:25
131. Jesus reconciled all things to Himself - Colossians 1:20. Jesus is God - Romans 5:18-19
132. Jesus brings Judgment on the churches in Revelation 2 and 3. Jesus is God - Hebrews 10:30, Deuteronomy 32:35-36
133. God has a Father - Revelation 1:6. That God is Jesus Christ.
134. Jesus stilled the waves and rules the sea- Matthew 8:26-27, Mark 4:39-41. Jesus is God - Psalm 89:8-9
135. Jesus has eyes that are sent forth into all the earth - Revelation 5:6 - Jesus is God - II Chronicles 16:9
136. To know the love of Christ is to be filled with the fulness of God - Ephesians 3:19
137. Christ strengthens the believers - Philippians 4:13. Christ is God - Isaiah 40:29, Isaiah 41:10
138. In Christ's presence is fullness of joy - John 15:11. Jesus is God - Psalm 16:11
139. To see Jesus is to see the Father and to hate Jesus is to hate the Father as well - John 15:24, John 15:23
140. Jesus turns the water into wine - John 2:7-11. A creative act to show that Jesus is Creator God.
141. Jesus walks on water - John 6:19, Matthew 14:26, Mark 6:48 - Jesus is God - Psalm 93:4, Psalm 95:5, Psalm 72:8, Job 9:8
142. Jesus causes the blind to see - Matthew 9:27-30, Matthew 11:5, Mark 8:22-26, Mark 10:51-52. Jesus is God - Psalm 146:8, Isaiah
35:4-5
143. Jesus causes the deaf to hear - Matthew 11:5, Mark 7:32, Mark 7:37 - Jesus is God - Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 43:7-8
144. Jesus causes the dumb to speak - Matthew 9:32-33, Matt 15:31, Mark 7:37, Luke 11:14. Jesus is God - Isaiah 36:6, Ezekiel 24:27,
Ezekiel 33:22
145. Jesus causes the lame to walk - Matthew 11:5, Mark 2:11, Luke 7:22 - Jesus is God - Isaiah 35:6
146. Jesus' face shines as the sun - Matthew 17:2. Jesus is God - Psalm 84:11, Malachi 4:2
147. Jesus will inherit all nations - Psalm 2:7-8. Jesus is God - Psalm 82:8
148. Jesus will rule all nations with a rod of iron - Revelation 12:5. Jesus is God - Isaiah 14:5-6
149. Jesus will smite all nations with a rod or iron. He is the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God - Revelation 19:15. He is Almighty
God who brings wrath.
150. Jesus and His Father established the ends of the earth - Proverbs 30:4
151. Jesus was without sin - II Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, I Peter 2:22. Only God is without sin - Deuteronomy 32:4. Jesus is God
152. Jesus is ABOVE ALL - John 3:31
153. Jesus is GOD OVER ALL - Romans 9:5
154. Jesus is LORD OF ALL - Acts 10:36
155. The Lord God sent His angel to John - Rev 22:6. It is Jesus that sent His angel - Rev 22:16. Jesus is the Lord God.
156. Jesus is called the "Lord of Glory" - I Corinthians 2:8. Jesus is YHWH God - Psalm 24:8-10
157. Jesus gets glory now and forever - II Peter 3:18
158. The Father calls Jesus "LORD" who made heaven and earth - Hebrews 1:10
159. Heaven is God's throne and earth His FOOTSTOOL - Isaiah 66:1, Matthew 5:34-35. Jesus is God - Matthew 22:44, Hebrews 1:13
160. Every knee shall bow, and "every tongue" shall confess to GOD - Romans 14:11. The God "every tongue" is confessing to is
JESUS CHRIST - Philippians 2:11​

Well, I hope my answer helps you.

May the Lord's love shine upon you.

With loving kindness to you in Christ:

Sincerely,

~Jason


...

Article Source:
http://www.scionofzion.com/160_reasons.htm

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Furthermore, just so that there is no confusion:

Jesus is both God and man.

As for Christ being a man: The Living Word (Second person of the Godhead) came down into the flesh of the virgin named Mary and He had real physical flesh and blood. Christ's Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge) was merely suppressed during the Incarnation so as to be like a man (limited in knowledge) (Philippians 2:6-9). For Christ was that like figure (type) of Adam (Romans 5:14), and both Adam and Jesus were limited in knowledge as a part of God's design for a certain amount of time.

Jesus said and did everything the Father told him to say and do. Jesus always pleased his Father. So He could be like a man who served God perfectly so as to be our substitute.

As for Christ being God: The Scriptures declare that even during Christ's Earthly ministry, Jesus is God not in word only but in power, as well.

1. Jesus said He was going to raise up the temple (his body) three days later (John 2:19-20).
2. Jesus said He had power to raise the dead to life just as the Father can raise the dead to life (John 5:21).
3. Jesus said where two are three are gathered in his name, He is among them (Matthew 18:20).
4. Jesus held everything together by the word of his power when he purged us of our sins (on the cross) (Hebrews 1:3).
5. Jesus had the power of God to forgive sin and provide eternal life to people (Matthew 9:5) (John 10:28).
6. Jesus had the power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
7. Jesus received worship as God (Matthew 28:16-17).

Only God could do those things.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I also highly recommend in watching this video here, too:

...

 

[Philip_B]

The Bible is not a theological textbook. Those who wrote the texts did not understand themselves to be writing about theology, let alone systematic theology. We have insight, revelation, and accounts of the mighty acts of God, a living testimony and rich tapestry which we accept as canon - the rule by which theology is tested.

We see in the second century a development in the use of Trinitarian Language and thought.

Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be ye subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union both fleshly and spiritual. Ignatius to the Magnesians​

This is very early, though I don't have a date it is early 100's, and the naturalness of the language without having an established history of the the doctrine is important evidence that it was not an idea imagined up at the Council of Nicaea in 325.

After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water…. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The Didache​

This again is in the first half of the 2nd century (ie before 150 AD), and the formula for baptism is being expressed in a manner which seems entirely consistent with the widespread usage of the Church in the 21st Century.

It is reasonable to conclude that Scripture bears witness to the three persons of the Trinity (and I don't intend to give you a long list of references as there are many already in this thread) which ultimately ended up in the work of the 1st Council of Nicaea 325 AD and the 1st Council of Constantinople 381 AD, not to mention the sustained work of the Cappadocian Fathers in between the two councils.

I don't believe that we have a better understanding of God available to us. In it's very essence the doctrine of the Holy Trinity suggests that at the hearty of God is mystery and relationship. If we could fully enunciate our appreciation and understanding of God within the confines of intellect and language we would be God less worthy of our attention and response. As we also understand humanity as being in the image and after the likeness of God, we might expect therefore to see something of that mystery and relationship reflected within the human person, and I believe we do.

I think it was John Wesley who said 'show me a worm that understands a man, and I will show you a man who understands the trinity'

For me, despite the struggles, I believe that the Holy Trinity is the best understanding we have, and be it the creation account in Genesis 1, the Annunciation in Luke, or the Baptism of Jesus in the synoptic Gospels, or many other passages, I find that this theology is not in conflict with what I read.

May we all know wisdom and peace in the love of God.

 

[Rescued One]

Don't pray, study.

I studied and fervently prayed and God brought me out the pit and planted my feet on the Rock.

 

[Radagast]

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it...

Relevant passages in the gospels are, among others:

Matthew 3:16: And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him

John 14:26: But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you

 

[Righttruth]

I am not sure this post will be of any use, but...I have found that no logical analysis of the Trinity does me more than a little good. The best I can say is that such descriptions (and I appreciate some on this very thread) point me to something that is beyond reason. I think this is distinct from saying "hey, it's just a mystery". By keeping my mind on this matter, I feel like I have improved the relationship between my own reason and understanding and can speak the Apostles' Creed more sincerely.

I accept Apostles' Creed, not Nicene Creed. Trinity for me is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, nothing more and nothing less. They are treated as separate Three Persons in a special way, not in the usual sense.

 

[DingDing]

The Trinity - Help Me Understand
...
Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

I think it is more about believing than understanding. The human mind is never going to be able to fully comprehend the nature of God. What He reveals of Himself we kind of have to take by faith. Anyone who says they fully understand the nature of God is fooling themselves.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think there are several obstacles many moderns have when attempting to deal with Trinitarian theology, one is that there exists a view among a number Protestants that for something to be true in any way it needs to be, effectively, spelled out in the Bible; so with that mindset they don't find the Trinity explicitly spelled out in the New Testament and conclude it must not be true. Another issue is that Trinitarian theology isn't intuitive, and is so razor sharp precise in its language that it seems like it's just some sort of theological equivalent to the lawyer's legalese.

But to really understand the importance of Trinitarian thinking means looking at the early history of Christianity, and trying to see things as they were back then.

In the aftermath of Christ's resurrection it was abundantly clear to early Christians that everything had changed, history had reached a climax, and the world and history would never be the same again. And a fundamentally important question arises: What is Jesus' relationship to God?

In the writings which make up the New Testament we get a lot of different, and very important statements in regard to this question. For example St. Paul expresses a high Christology such that he frequently identifies Jesus with the God of Israel, one of the most important places for this is in Philippians 2 where Paul all but quotes the Prophet Isaiah where YHVH declares that every knee shall bow to Him and mouth confess Him (this is more obvious when comparing Philippians 2 with the LXX here). And then we have in John's Gospel the prologue where Christ is identified with the Divine Logos, who was both in the beginning with God and is God, and further we find in the text statements made by Jesus such as "Before Abraham was, I am" and "I and My Father are one" and "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father".

In fact it seems that the idea that Jesus was divine was hardly that controversial, and for much of the 2nd century Christian leaders don't find themselves trying to argue the divinity of Christ, but instead arguing for the humanity of Christ against various schools of Gnostic and quasi-Gnostic teaching.

But by the end of the 2nd century this question concerning the relationship of Jesus to God reaches a place of significant debate and discussion, and the leaders of the Church spend far less time trying to argue positively a particular view so much as reject views that are considered completely wrong.

Two popular positions in the late 2nd and 3rd centuries are two forms of Monarchianism; views which stress the monarchy of God. In one Monarchist view Jesus is a creature who, by a special adoption by God, is made divine; this view called Adoptionism views Jesus as a divine person but effectively through a kind of apotheosis, such a view was maintained by Paul of Samosata and several others. The other Monarchist view maintained that God was a singular, sole hypostasis and agent who presented Himself through different modes, or faces; Jesus was actually God the Father in human clothes--this was known as Sabellianism, named after Sabellius, also called Modalism or Patripassionism. In fact, in the 4th century Sabellianism continued to be an issue of major concern.

When the presbyter, Arius, from Alexandria heard his bishop speak on the relationship of the Son to the Father Arius believed his bishop (Alexander of Alexandria) to be promoting Sabellianism. It was, in fact, Arius conviction that he was combating Sabellianism. This fear was real even when years later Constantine summoned the bishops to gather at Nicea to settle the issue, the initial hesitancy against using the term homoousios in reference to the Son was because the Sabellians had used the same to suggest that Jesus was identical to God the Father; so the term had to be more clearly defined and, in the end, virtually every bishop at the council agreed with the use of homoousios as properly understood with the rest of the language of the Nicene Creed, i.e. that the Son is "begotten of the Father before all ages" and is "God of God" herein the Son is confessed as entirely distinct from the Father.

So Arius and Arianism had been attempt to counter the fear of Sabellianism, but from the position of most everyone else in the Church Arius may have been well-intentioned, but fundamentally misguided and having gone to another extreme. And so Arius and Sabellius here represent two extremes that the Church needed to reject.

And when, after saying, "No, we cannot accept this" in regard to numerous propositions over the years, there is something that ends up being left over.

If there is only one God.
And if the Father is God.
And if the Son is God.
And if the Holy Spirit is God.
And if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct.
Then the doctrine of the Trinity is the natural, organic outcome of several centuries of debate over that question, What is the relationship of Jesus to God?

The doctrine of the Trinity, then, does not come about because of an explicit statement made in Scripture; nor does it come about because of some arbitrary decision of some stuffy theologians. It comes about out of a sincere and necessary engagement with the revelation of God in and through Christ and taking seriously what it means to believe in Him, confess Him as Lord, and to take seriously the teachings of the Apostles as we find them taught in Scripture and what is believed and confessed down through the generations by the successors of the Apostles.

It's messy, it's complicated, and it's true. Or, at least, it is the least wrong thing we can say. And that is, after all, what theology at its best is: saying the least wrong things about God.

-CryptoLutheran