The Trinity - Help Me Understand

[Rescued One]

Neither is Sunday school, but that's beyond the point. Lots of things are done 'in the name of God' and I'm confident God is looking down saying; "Is that child of mine retarded or just immature...no, he's just immature."


Maybe so, remember Simon the magician who "believed and was baptized" but still had some "repentance from wickedness" issues to deal with. But making 'unconfessed sins' the reason may be just as theologically wrong, as those who don't believe in tongues at all IMO. And all of us having to admit we 'sin' still, is pretty much a given IMO. So thinking the gift of tongues makes us sinless is just as theologically wrong also. Simply proves ignorance of the whole theology of that doctrine IMO.

I believe in tongues. What I don't believe is gibberish being spoken in church.

Only problem with that statement is SCRIPTURE doesn't agree;

KJV 1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Remember what I just posted about 'translators' not knowing how to translate correctly? This verse is a prime example. Read it in another translation.

RSV 1 Corinthians 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

So at Pentecost, the languages were known and were for the people present whose first languages were not all the same.

So, should the Sspirit be capitalized in that verse, or not? I say 'NOT'. The Holy Spirit IS God and doesn't need to pray to God.

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

To intercede, the Spirit communicates with God the Father. Do you think the Persons in the Godhead can't communicate with other?

The Son also intercedes for us.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession* for them.

*the action of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.

1 Corinthians 14
10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

It's of little use to speak in Russian or Portugese to an English speaking congregation. When I spoke in English to a Spanish speaking congregation, I had an interpreter translate my words into Spanish.

1 Corinthians 14
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

1 Corinthians 14:28
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

He isn't praying in a language he doesn't understand.

Jesus taught us how to pray:
Matthew 6
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

He said nothing about using an unknown language.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Liquid, steam, ice..all different yet all the same. Water.

 

[Hillsage]

God is Spirit, and you are not.
The scriptures are clear that
some aspects of God are unknowable.

God is a triune spirit, but I am a triune human. And the only part of a human made in the image of God is our spirit.

In the beginning there was no JESUS, there was the Father, Word, Holy Spirit...all three of which were....spirit. But 2000 years ago the Word did not count equality with spirit God as a thing to be grasped by a 'spirit, soul, body' human being. So He emptied himself of 'spirit equality with God' and became a spirit/soul/body human being. And he was even born with a body "in the likeness of sinful flesh." IOW the Word became something that 'a human being' could identify 'equally' with.

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body....

John 4:24 God is spirit,

JOH 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

PHI 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself,... being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form..

ROM 8:3 For God.... sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh...

 

[Hillsage]

I believe in tongues. What I don't believe is gibberish being spoken in church.

That's because you don't know 'tongues' as I know them IMO.

So at Pentecost, the languages were known and were for the people present whose first languages were not all the same.

First mistake. The 'tongues' first spoken was not 'human language', but a "noised abroad" language from their spirit (Acts 2:6). Probably sounding like what you call GIBBERISH IMO. And it was 'that tongue' which drew a crowd. Those who subsequently gathered then heard the 'language tongues' of those from other countries being spoken. But those Holy 'Spirit tongues' were not the spirit prayer tongues first received "which no man understandeth" 1Cor 14:2. For that tongue "speaks not unto men but unto God" Whereas the tongue gift from the Holy Spirit and not our spirit is the tongue which was spoken to the Jews from around the world. Even the local Jews in the crowd, who were not hearing 'their tongue' being spoken by the 'Holy Spirit baptized' disciples, declared the disciples sounded like DRUNKS. As is so often done today by those who are "ungifted/unlearned/outsiders" according to scripture (1Cor:23) .

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Already dealt with this. Why does God need to pray to God? Doesn't even make sense really. And if it's "groanings", it's not words, and if it "cannot be uttered", it certainly isn't like the tongues language spoken of multiple times in the bible AND as I've spoken with, from 'my spirit' for over 40 years.

The Son also intercedes for us.
Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession* for them.

A verse which is talking about the everlasting life he attained to after He died/resurrected and "therefore" received "the name above all names", I might add.

1 Corinthians 14
10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

It's of little use to speak in Russian or Portugese to an English speaking congregation. When I spoke in English to a Spanish speaking congregation, I had an interpreter translate my words into Spanish.

1 Corinthians 14
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

1 Corinthians 14:28
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

He isn't praying in a language he doesn't understand.

All of which just proves you don't know how to "rightly divide" scripture when dealing with the multi faceted subject of TONGUES. There are tongues from the Holy Spirit, tongues from the spirit of a man, and vernacular tongues from the souls of men.

Everything you just quoted is in complete contradiction to 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

So just explain this one verse in the light of all your understanding, because your POV doesn't fit my understanding. Whereas the understanding I have does fit my theology as well as my experience.

Jesus taught us how to pray:
Matthew 6
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

And I do pray like that...IN ENGLISH. And if that's the only way 'prayer works' then I'm going to assume you haven't heard as many 'church prayers' as I have. But maybe that's why so many aren't answered either

He said nothing about using an unknown language.

Thinking cap time. It would have been a dumb teaching since none of them could even be born again yet....let alone have the Holy Spirit baptize them before Pentecost. A feast and baptism which wasn't even going to happen until after Jesus was crucified and resurrected. So, no chance for tongues prayer, to teach about IMO.

 

[SkyWriting]

God is a triune spirit, but I am a triune human. .

I don' thin you are.

 

[Butch5]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing Christian music (Hillsong) for the first time and just crying, I don't know why it just overwhelmed my soul.

In school assemblies the local vicar used to come in and give talks. Every time he spoke about the Bible and Jesus it just made sense I never even questioned it.

When I became a teenager I got involved with a local Christian youth group and became a Christian. It all just made sense, I can't say the concept of God was ever doubted, even to this day I have always believed in God and could never be considered an atheist or even agnostic.

Anyway, I got baptised and everything went well for a few years I was heavily involved with the church and what not, then I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I stopped reading the Bible and living a Christian lifestyle. I NEVER stopped believing I just used to kid myself and cherry pick what I believed because I KNEW I was living against God's word.

Anyway fast forward I'm 26 now last year I started looking at religion again and reading the Bible and taking things more seriously. Cut a long story short I ended up exploring Islam and so much made sense to me.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer. Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

The Scriptures don't tell us that one must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian.

 

[Rescued One]

The Scriptures don't tell us that one must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian.

They tell us that there are false Christs and false prophets. We are to serve the one true God. God's word tells us that there is only One God and that Jesus is God. Jesus prayed that His Father would send the Holy Spirit.

John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit were present at Jesus' baptism.

The Triune God is three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

 

[Rescued One]

Is the Holy Spirit God?

John 14
16 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

How is a person born of God?

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 2
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Romans 15
30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

John 15
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 Corinthians 2
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

It's really hard to deny that there are three Persons in the one true God; the Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Father or the Son.

 

[Der Alte]

Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

This passage, Act 5:3-4, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed
_____
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה/YHWH, Jer 31:33-34]​

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
_____
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]​

This passage, Heb 3:7-11, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below, were spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
_____
Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

 

[Butch5]

They tell us that there are false Christs and false prophets. We are to serve the one true God. God's word tells us that there is only One God and that Jesus is God. Jesus prayed that His Father would send the Holy Spirit.

John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit were present at Jesus' baptism.

The Triune God is three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

That's one view, but it's not Nicene theology.

 

[com7fy8]

I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I personally understand that people need to have the character of Jesus, by being cured in His love (1 John 4:17), in order to stay with God. One might get started, but then in instability get away. But with maturity in love, we can stay with it.

1 John 4:17

Hebrews 12:4-11

* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.

I offer . . . now thinking of this > yes, God alone is good. So, I trust that it is logical that our Heavenly Father would not be greatly pleased with a being who is less good than He is. Yet . . . as I think you know > our Father is very well-pleased with His own Son Jesus. So . . . possibly now along with other things which have been offered to you . . . I think this can fit with Jesus being divine.

* Jesus prayed.

Our Father communicates with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Their communication can be called prayer. The Holy Spirit, also, "makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (in Romans 8:26) But I can give things which fit with Him being divine . . . and a Person of God.

Because "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16). I understand that love is personal, and involves more than one person. So, I can see how love involves interpersonal family caring and sharing, of our Father and His Son Jesus and the helping Holy Spirit, as Persons of this one love > and God made man in His image, and mankind is more than one basic family person > father, child, and helping mother.

So, various things fit with God being Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Now, people argue out of this, but things I offer can fit . . . not to prove it, but to give us more and better appreciation

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit.

Well, we have >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

From this, I think it is reasonable to see that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God's own love. And I offer that you can't be the Spirit of God's own love, unless you are God.

And this fits with God being love > love gives the best and shares the best; and so, God has not sent us a second-best being or given us some inferior blessing, but Jesus is God's own Self who has come to us, divine but in human form within His body, and now the Holy Spirit is God's own Self sharing His very own family caring and sharing love with us.

I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed,

Well, our Apostle Peter spoke in tongues, but later did the hypocrisy thing which Paul reports in Galatians 2:11-13. So, speaking in tongues does not have to mean you are specially blessed. When the disciples first received the Holy Spirit, they had just been people who were doubting and running out on Jesus. I offer > they did not change that much, in only that little time until they received the Holy Spirit.

And you might read and feed on 1 Corinthians 12-14, about all which Paul says really matters and how tongues fits in but is not the main or the only blessing.

How much did they talk about how Hebrews 12:4-11 says we all need to seek our Father for His correction so we can share in His holiness and have His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness"?

 

[Uber Genius]

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

It is hard to answer a question that is rhetorical!

But perhap you are not fully up to speed on the nature of the Mulsim misunderstanding. Firstly, Mary is NOT a member of the Trinity! Opps

Secondly, the church fathers discussed the trinity in depth for the first three-hundred years so what I'm sharing is not new but rather ancient and predates Islam by over 500 years in some cases.

God is spirit, humans after they die are spirit, therefore humans are God after they die. What just happened here? Ignoring the fallacy, let's focus on the meaning of the word "is".

There are two ises. An "is" of predication, and an "is" of identity.

Predication

Jesus is embodied

The HS is not embodied

The Father is not embodied

Identity

The father is NOT God.

The HS is NOT God.

Jesus is NOT God.

The Father, HS, AND Jesus are GOD!

What is often the root of our misunderstanding is that we are one being with one soul or person or center of consciousness. God is one being with three persons or three souls or three centers of consciousness.

Muhammed reacted to a corrupted text of the NT, common in the 7th-century in the Arabian peninsula. But it is horribly corrupted. Have you ever heard of any Christian teaching Mary was part of the Trinity?????

Here is a 6-hour detailed teaching on the Doctrine of the Trinity. It will help argue the affirmative case for such a view, and denude the opposing views of their explanatory power.

Don't pray, study.

God has worked very hard to help us understand the truth about a small section of subjects. One of them is the trinity. His answer to prayer about the truth of the trinity is, "Read what I commissioned the authors of the NT to write, and stop being lazy."

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

God the Father inhabits the spiritual light and energy (E/c2). In that energy and light cannot be created or destroyed shows the eternal nature of God the Father.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. - John 8:42

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: - John 15:26

Jesus Christ proceeded and came forth from the Father
The Holy Spirit came forth and proceeded from God the Father

As we are sinful creatures, we must go through Jesus Christ to come to the Father and he will send us the Holy Ghost.

 

[Uber Genius]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

Wow!

Not even possible to falsify.

Trinity is analogous to Einstein's theory of special relativity which is analogous to natural, mental, and spiritual (not even sure what the definition is of "mental" given that the Christian view of mental involves the interaction between the physical brain and spiritual soul).

These three states are analogous to math, and faith, blah blah blah.

This description is like the movie inception.

Without using an analogy tell me how Jesus is related to the Father and HS.

 

[Uber Genius]

Liquid, steam, ice..all different yet all the same. Water.

So if God changes from Father to Son to Spirit it fulfills your analogy but is the heresy known as modalism.

Perhaps you might want to add something to the analogy.

 

[Uber Genius]

The Scriptures don't tell us that one must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian.

They also don't tell us that bread is made with some type of flour. But we can easily discover that bread is made with flour and that the New Testament teaches Jesus is God, the HS is God, And the Father is God!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Liquid, steam, ice..all different yet all the same. Water.

The problem with this analogy is that it amounts to Modalism/Sabellianism. A rather popular and pernicious ancient heresy from the third and fourth centuries which treats God as a single hypostasis and agent who merely presents Himself in different modes, or faces, or masks; like an actor in a Greek drama.

The Trinity is not this, but three consubstantial, co-eternal, and co-equal divine Hypostases. One in Essence and Being.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

That's one view, but it's not Nicene theology.

The theology of the Nicene Creed states that the Son is homoousios with the Father, and therefore "God of God"; likewise it states that the Spirit is to be worshiped and glorified with the Father and the Son--it would not be unless the Spirit were, like Father and Son, true and actual God.

Insofar as the Nicene Creed goes, its purpose wasn't to spell out Trinitarian theology, but first and foremost was to affirm the orthodox confession of the Son against Arianism, and in addition reject the Pneumatomachoi and affirm the Divinity and Personhood of the Spirit. More fully fleshed out Trinitarian language and theology can be found in the writings of the fathers such as Hillary of Poitiers, Athanasius, the Cappadocians, and Augustine of Hippo. In the West the Quicumque Vult has been used for centuries as a robust affirmation of Trinitarian theology and faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Uber Genius]

I believe that the Father is God operating through the old covenant, that the Son is God operating through the new covenant, and that the Spirit is God operating. Energies, adminstrations, and gifts; as the scripture says. So there is one God; acting according to three covenant conditions.

As much as I enjoy your posts this analogy fails to recognize "the two powers in heaven" view held by Second temple Judaism from 523 BCE - 70 CE. This view held that there were two YHWY figures.

So we see Father, Son, and HS operate in all three covenants.

 

[truefiction1]

Every human being is a self (consciousness), with thoughts (cognitions), and spirit (emotive force). So is God, in Whose image we are made. The difference is that in God, the self (Father), the thoughts (Word/Son), and the Spirit, are three distinct, uncreated Persons, Who are identically Three and One. The Christian Bible clearly reveals this Truth about God. Biblical passages that seem to show otherwise are easily reconcilable to this Truth when one understands that the Word of God became flesh, and finding Himself in the form of a servant, humbled Himself as human creatures should before God (Philippians 2:5-11). On the other hand, Jesus clearly proclaims His identity as God, even claiming for Himself the Divine Name of Yahweh (or "I AM"). See (John 8:58)