The Trinity - Help Me Understand

[stuart lawrence]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing Christian music (Hillsong) for the first time and just crying, I don't know why it just overwhelmed my soul.

In school assemblies the local vicar used to come in and give talks. Every time he spoke about the Bible and Jesus it just made sense I never even questioned it.

When I became a teenager I got involved with a local Christian youth group and became a Christian. It all just made sense, I can't say the concept of God was ever doubted, even to this day I have always believed in God and could never be considered an atheist or even agnostic.

Anyway, I got baptised and everything went well for a few years I was heavily involved with the church and what not, then I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I stopped reading the Bible and living a Christian lifestyle. I NEVER stopped believing I just used to kid myself and cherry pick what I believed because I KNEW I was living against God's word.

Anyway fast forward I'm 26 now last year I started looking at religion again and reading the Bible and taking things more seriously. Cut a long story short I ended up exploring Islam and so much made sense to me.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer. Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

Christianity does not hinge on believing in the word trinity, nor in calling Jesus, God himself. You have read the bible so you know that. Don't let theologians and scholars make you question whether you can be a Christian. Simply stand on what the bible actually states you must believe. The son of God came to earth and died for your sins.
As for speaking I tongues. Many christians don't speak I tongues. Don't let that concern you either.
What should matter is relationship with the father through the son.
My advice is get off these kind of websites. Too many people on them at into head theology that contradicts the plainly written word. That won't help you if you are genuinely seeking

 

[Jezmeyah]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

I've snipped the irrelevant.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me.

The words 'forced upon' is subjective. Belief is not a matter of being forced, it is an individual choice.
Especially in America. In other countries they however have religion so engrained into their culture, and families, that it's a matter of personality.. there is no other identity without it.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)

It is known that the Muslim/Islam faith of today does not believe in the Jewish God. So it's pointless to look for God's truth in the Koran.

Concerning the topic of the Trinity.. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one"? Do you not realize that the word translated 'one' also includes 'unity'?
That unity that Jesus spoke of unto God in His Gethsemane prayer in John 17.. that He and the Father are one - united. Jesus spoke of the glory that He had with God before He came to earth as a man. The same glory of the Father.
And Jesus spoke of all who believe in Him (Jesus) would share in that oneness or that unity with God, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and have unity with other believers.

* Jesus said that God was greater than him.

Yes, while Jesus was an ordinary man on the earth, but when He was resurrected.. the scripture in the book of Hebrews 1:8-10, quoting from Ps.45:6-7 called Him God, and He being glorified was no longer an ordinary man. And when He ascended, He joined God to sit in His Throne with God.

* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.

Meaning, no one can be good like God without God. Just as no one can be holy like God without God.
Jesus was acknowledging God as the Source of all that is good. As the scripture said, Jesus being anointed of God went about doing good and healing all who were possessed of the devil. And the scripture where Jesus said that it was the Father within Him that did (the good) works, and the greater works.

* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

What do you seem to imply?.. that Jesus was not the Son of God?

Jesus was on the earth as a man, not as God.. though He came from God and had His place with God. The scripture verse said that He emptied Himself of those attributes in order to become like us, so He totally depended upon God to be able to do the mighty miracles that He did. Jesus said that without faith in God He, Jesus could do nothing. In that He completely identified with the rest of us.

If Jesus come to earth, were not like mankind then He could not have been the substitutionary sacrifice, the Lamb of God, to take away the sins of the world.

Now before you try and answer all of those questions,

Oops, too late, perhaps you should have said that first.

not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references.
Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

That is unfortunate that even with all of your studying, you still have no direction whatsoever and therefore must rely on your own reasoning.

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer.

Faith is not based on wispy air.. it's based on solid evidence. Such solid evidence that the disciples witnessed throughout Jesus' ministry. Such evidence Jesus pointed to which showed that He is the Jewish Messiah which the Jews of that day were looking for at that time. The elder man Simeon recognized the baby Jesus as the Messiah when Joseph and Mary brought Him to be circumcised and dedicated unto God. The witness of that man is God's truth. There is also the Biblical evidence that Jesus Himself gave to those whom He walked with after His resurrection on the road to Emmaus. There is the evidence of the entire new testament. If that doesn't satisfy you.. then you are in need of more study.

Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

I put my faith in God's Word, the only sure place that provides faith, and faith in God.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Good choice.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

In the interest of shortening this post, and especially in view of what you've admitted to of your lack of faith, I see no point in going any further than this. In my opinion you should get the areas that you've mentioned above regarding your strength or weakness in Christianity settled first, after you do, then you could begin to tackle the other topic.

 

[Rescued One]

Thank you very much, it definitely help calm some of my confusions. I still don't totally understand but guess that is OK.

Something we ALWAYS must remember is that there is only one true God and there is no other true God anywhere. He is unique. We can't expect to fully understand Him. We can understand what He wants us to know. I used to sort of believe in three gods in the godhead. I couldn'tunderstand that religion because it kept contradicting the Bible. It took me years to walk away from those false teachings. God kept nudging me but Satan was pulling the other direction. At last (in our view of time) God opened my eyes! All glory to HIM!

 

[chevyontheriver]

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

Since you've read all of the relevant stuff already, all I need to do is remind you. So much easier. Mine will be more historical theological in direction than Scriptural. Mostly because the Scriptures relating to the Holy Spirit are not systematic in treating of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is there in OT and especially NT, but the theology only became systematic later. The word 'trinity' only came later as well.

The systematic theological basis was laid by the Cappadocian Fathers, Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory Nazienzen, as you know. So it would be wise to reread some of their works again. That is the systematic basis for what the council of Constantinople concluded and what has been the basis for Christian teaching. It was there implicitly earlier, but finally in a systematic way afterwards. Just as with the Son being homousious with the Father, which was new Nicean language that captured the implicit beliefs of generations of Christians before that, the Holy Spirit as God was new, but in the end was the only way to capture the belief of generations of plain old Christians.

The Trinity is a bold belief. It does not sit well with Jews and Muslims who expect one simple God. It's way too involved for polytheists who expect many distinct gods. It's one God, one God only, but within a permanent intense interior relationship of persons in love. Without being a Trinity then God is either one monolithic unrelating God for whom love means nothing or a bunch of petty gods in competition with one another. The Trinity is where Jesus can love Abba (Daddy) and that eternal and unlimited love can be powerful enough to bring about the Holy Spirit in eternity. We are adoptable by this God, which would be incomprehensible in Muslim theology. Only in Trinity can God actually be love.

 

[Hillsage]

It's messy, it's complicated, and it's true. Or, at least, it is the least wrong thing we can say. And that is, after all, what theology at its best is: saying the least wrong things about God.

-CryptoLutheran

Have enjoyed your input here on this subject. But I especially like this last comment.

Having said that I'd like to ask your opinion as to, whether or not you think, one 'has to believe Jesus was God to get/be saved (born again/justified)'? I don't personally, but was in a pretty lively discussion just this morning with husband and his wife this morning. They actually became a bit vehemently defensive as to my error.

 

[didomach]

Hi Whitworth, welcome to the forums. I'm also new to this forum, though not new to the debate. I want to recommend a wonderful series that walks you through the character of God, including the Trinity, without using Scripture, but using Reason alone.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/handout_apologetics/introduction/

According to John Gerstner's logical argument in the lectures above, REASON demands a God-man. (I wrote a historical fiction novel, Trunk of Scrolls, that shows why this is necessary).

The Trinity as a word is not in the Bible, but the conclusion is part of the Bible from the very beginning. It is core to every book in the Bible. Understanding this requires both study of Scripture, and study of the councils of Nicea and Chalcedon where these ideas were defined and put into words.

In the end, it is essential you understand, because the God of the Bible, the God of salvation, the God of "the way, the truth and the life," is a Triune God, and without that God you cannot be saved. The heart cannot believe what the mind does not understand. So you must seek to understand "enough" to get it. However, the God of the Bible is one who hides himself. He responds to those who are humble, and who do not come pridefully to the topic. So if you want to understand, in your prayers, be sure to ask sincerely and humbly. "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

It will make sense only when God gives you that grace to "get-it." Otherwise it's a way he keeps the proud away from him. Because elsewhere in Scripture it says that God confounds the wisdom of the wise. He was continually perplexing the Pharisees. But you know they understood the implications of his divinity when they took up stones to stone him for blasphemous words.

I affirm your search. You must not "just believe" this. You MUST understand it with your mind.

 

[geiroffenberg]

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

Pentecostals may have confused the issue!

One god, they are not three gods. So as soon as you believe in three disctinct "beings", it would be like three gods. In modern language "person" means "individual" thats where the confusion starts with most.
Person in old language literally means "mask".

Same actor, different masks, or different functions.

If you can agree with this, u can say you believe in one god and the trinity, no problems.

Its not a hard task, we conduse it with our himan minds. Children gets it fast.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

Hi all.

OK, I don't want to make this thread a HUGE wall of text, while I have no doubt it will be fairly long regardless, I will try and keep things as brief as possible.

So I used to be confident to call myself a Christian. I grew up never not believing but my family weren't religious so I didn't grow up having religion forced upon me. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing Christian music (Hillsong) for the first time and just crying, I don't know why it just overwhelmed my soul.

In school assemblies the local vicar used to come in and give talks. Every time he spoke about the Bible and Jesus it just made sense I never even questioned it.

When I became a teenager I got involved with a local Christian youth group and became a Christian. It all just made sense, I can't say the concept of God was ever doubted, even to this day I have always believed in God and could never be considered an atheist or even agnostic.

Anyway, I got baptised and everything went well for a few years I was heavily involved with the church and what not, then I began to majorly backslide. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, that kind of lifestyle you could say.

I stopped reading the Bible and living a Christian lifestyle. I NEVER stopped believing I just used to kid myself and cherry pick what I believed because I KNEW I was living against God's word.

Anyway fast forward I'm 26 now last year I started looking at religion again and reading the Bible and taking things more seriously. Cut a long story short I ended up exploring Islam and so much made sense to me.

Reading the Bible it was clear to me a few things.

* Jesus proclaimed there was ONE God. (He was Jewish after all)
* Jesus said that God was greater than him.
* Jesus said why do you call me good for no one is good but God.
* Jesus prayed. (If Jesus prayed how can he be God? Who was he praying too?)

Now before you try and answer all of those questions, not to be rude but I had studied and probably read just about every answer from every Christian and Islamic source. I probably know the answers you're going to give and Biblical references. Nothing satisfies (before you say pray, I really have and still no clear guidance or answer)

To me it all seems to boil down to faith. There's no solid historical or theological evidence or answer. Both Christians and Muslim scholars have amazing arguments for and against the divinity of Christ. It seems to all come down to who you're willing to put your faith into.

Studying deeper into Islam, them not believing Jesus was crucified which is almost a historically confirmed agreed upon event amongst most scholars, amongst studying the life and history of Mohammad it seemed to me that on the balance of probability my faith was best placed in Christianity.

Now here's the biggest struggle.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

Well the Trinity is certainly revealed in the scriptures. The early church believed them. In the second century comes a new term for the regular belief in a letter to a Theophilus. Triad.

Alan Morrison wrote a great eleven page essay showing the Trinity from scripture for Modalists. I may be able to find and send it to you.

When Jesus was on Earth He was humbled deliberately to fulfill the word from the pillar fire in Exodus. That the Messiah instead of overwhelmingly fearsome would be a brother, like one of them, from the tribe of Judah. And so Jesus as in Philippians 2 does not count equality with God something to be grasped but becomes as a servant. So for a time He does not know the day of judgment date, and is not good or glorious, and is called the Son of Man as well as Son of God. But he is called I AM before Abraham, and the Holy One of God, He accepts worship, and forgives sins, and says He will raise Himself up from the dead in John 2.

The Messiah surprised Israel by fighting man's enemies instead of Israel's. Sickness, sin and death. Things that beset Adam after falling. Now good news is preached to Israel and all humanity. No other God offers all this. These problems beset humans and a human had to overcome them.

Satan is the author of death and death had a purpose. So Satan had the purpose of the death of the Son of God in order to obtain His "Vineyard", His power. To rise above God.

Michael the archangel could not overcome Satan on his own. The Holy One is more than the angels, because all the spirits of death and the unclean spirits tried to make the Son die in Spirit.

If there is no resurrection there is no hope for restoration and forgiveness...

There is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. God is just or right. Punishment doesn't work or justify. It took someone without sin, who could rise from the dead and attract the whole power of death.

The Holy Spirit is revealed in scripture, and has a will, a mind and emotions, and so He is a person. We are made in God, "they" in their image and likeness. And it is written, Listen Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is United.

Also Jesus is called wonderful counselor, Father of eternity, the Prince of Peace. In Isaiah. He created time.

Jesus worships the Father and the Father the Son... they talk to each other they pray.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Have enjoyed your input here on this subject. But I especially like this last comment.

Having said that I'd like to ask your opinion as to, whether or not you think, one 'has to believe Jesus was God to get/be saved (born again/justified)'? I don't personally, but was in a pretty lively discussion just this morning with husband and his wife this morning. They actually became a bit vehemently defensive as to my error.

I don't believe that salvation means passing a theology exam.

But if we are to be faithful preachers of the Gospel then I think the theology matters tremendously. So it's not that we have to "believe the right things" to be saved, that would be salvation by works, but we fail to preach the Gospel rightly when our theology is significantly in error. Good theology isn't about having my ducks lined up in a row so I can get my seat in the great hereafter; it's about being faithful, honest, and true in regard to God and what God has done for us in Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Pentecostals may have confused the issue!

One god, they are not three gods. So as soon as you believe in three disctinct "beings", it would be like three gods. In modern language "person" means "individual" thats where the confusion starts with most.
Person in old language literally means "mask".

Same actor, different masks, or different functions.

If you can agree with this, u can say you believe in one god and the trinity, no problems.

Its not a hard task, we conduse it with our himan minds. Children gets it fast.

It's precisely this problem, that the old Latin term persona referred to the masks worn by actors in a drama that made the term highly controversial; because to say that God is a single actor who puts on several roles is the heresy of Modalism (Sabellianism).

The doctrine of the Trinity is that there are, indeed, three distinct Hypostases (hypostasis, a Greek word meaning something like "the underlying reality of a thing"). The Father isn't a mask God wears, the Father is real and actual, and He has a Son and Word, His Son and Word who became flesh as our Lord Jesus is real and actual; and the Father also has His Spirit who is also real and actual. There is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; not imaginary roles or faces which God wears; but real, actual, discrete, and distinct Hypostases of a single, undivided Essence (God).

The Son is begotten of the Father, and so the Son is God even as the Father is God. Not two Gods, not two beings, not two essences; but one undivided Being, Essence, God. Likewise the Holy Spirit proceeds, eternally, from the Father [and the Son], and is also God, glorious, worthy of the same worship as Father and Son.

Not three beings, one Being. But indeed, three Hypostases. There is an actual, real, relationship of Three in the Being of the one God; as the Father relates to the Son, the Son to the Father, Father and Son to the Spirit, and Spirit to Father and Son. One God, three Hypostases. The use of the term "Persons" must be understood in this sense, otherwise it becomes heresy, and we end up with a God only playing pretend with us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[2404]

Scripture clearly states that there is one God.
God exists outside of creation.
Because in Him is the atribute to be a creator He manifested Himself as the Word 'Spoke and it was'
The Word then in dwelled a body "a kinsman" that could suffer death.
Long story short there is only one being manifesting Himself in three offices.
I'm am a father but also a son but my name is '2404'
We are saved through Jesus Christ's atonement and the name given to us 'the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ

 

[ViaCrucis]

Scripture clearly states that there is one God.
God exists outside of creation.
Because in Him is the atribute to be a creator He manifested Himself as the Word 'Spoke and it was'
The Word then in dwelled a body "a kinsman" that could suffer death.
Long story short there is only one being manifesting Himself in three offices.
I'm am a father but also a son but my name is '2404'
We are saved through Jesus Christ's atonement and the name given to us 'the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ

And that is the heresy of Modalism. Jesus is the name of the Son only, in His Incarnation. The Son is not the Father or the Spirit. We see at His baptism in the River Jordan by St. John that the Father proclaims, "This is My beloved Son" and the Spirit descend upon Him in the form of a dove. We see Christ regularly refer to the Father, praying to Him; and also saying of the Spirit that He is another comforter whom the Father will send in Christ's name.

Jesus is not the Father.
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the only-begotten Son and eternal Word of the Father, begotten before all ages.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[geiroffenberg]

It's precisely this problem, that the old Latin term persona referred to the masks worn by actors in a drama that made the term highly controversial; because to say that God is a single actor who puts on several roles is the heresy of Modalism (Sabellianism).

The doctrine of the Trinity is that there are, indeed, three distinct Hypostases (hypostasis, a Greek word meaning something like "the underlying reality of a thing").

Its a little too quick to throw the modalism card on the table and call me a heretic...but christians will be christians i guess....

Remember that saying one god in three persons is not a LITTLE thing. a person is not a minor thing. Modalism is modes, and in fact denies god in three person. so......not modalist.

Further, you refer to hupostasis in a doctrine of trinity. It is indeed a greek word, and it is biblical. Youll find used in the verses where it referres to something within theology it is really only two places in NT. heb 11:1 (faith is hupostasis)....and in hebr 1:3, where it says jesus is the expressed image of God, in fact it says jesus is the expressed image of Gods hupostasis. Only god is mentiones as a hupostasis, and it is not in plural.

So, it doesnt really matter if a doctrine says god is a number of three hupostasis as long as the scripture refer to him as one hupostasis and the Son as a expression of this. Not three, but one.

However, there is a distinction so we are not talking only one. There is father and son and spirit, but they are one (not in unity,l literally they are on, as in "one spirit".

But as i said, noone ever said a person is a small thing. Every human being is a person and a human person is not literally a mask, thats just the root of the word. But despite person being basically the makeup up the being, they are not three diferent lives, spirits, or gods. Modalism would talk about one guy ion three operatinoal modes. Persons go way beyond that. The distintion between them however is more an illusion than a real one, thats where the mask metaphore comes in a makes it understandable.

But all the words just confuses, its a simple thing, the human brain grows to confuse the issue.

 

[geiroffenberg]

Jesus is not the Father.

It's not exactly right. The bible actually calls jesus both "everlasting God" and "eternal father", isiahs 9 famous prophecy says this is literally his name.

Jesus also said "i and the father is one". not two. one.

So things may appear one way, but its not the whole truth.

Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

And yet, we can only be saved by calling Jesus "Lord" as it says in romans 10:9 "Whoever confesses...jesus is Lord shall be saved"

And Paul teaches "and the Lord IS the spirit"...and there is "one sprit" so the scripture ltierallty cancells out your statemtent.

In fact he actually calls the holy spirit "the spirit of jesus" some places.

Jesus is the only-begotten Son and eternal Word of the Father, begotten before all ages.

-CryptoLutheran

ANd the word is God. "And his name shall be wonderful councellor, almighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace". Gotta read all the verses u know.

 

[masmpg]

First and foremost, I apologise if this is not in the correct section. I'm fairly new here and was confused as to where this topic would be best placed. That being said, if a moderator would feel it is better suited in another sub-forum, please feel welcome to move this thread.

TLDR: I have put the most important part/question of this thread in BOLD. So if you don't want to read the wall of text and want to get straight to the point/question please just read the BOLD text.

For me the issue comes with the Holy Spirit. None of the early Christians seemed to believing in the trinity or understand/accept this concept. Jesus didn't preach it, nor did Paul and historically the earliest Christians did not have the concept of the trinity in their faith.

While you may point out to me many verses that mention the holy spirit or the trinity i.e. Go forth and baptise in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit etc none of these verses actually specifically teach the concept of the trinity clearly, it's all subjective and open to interpretation and A LOT of these verses are not found in the earliest translations of scripture available and have been added.

That's a HUGE problem for me, because how can I claim to be a Christian when I can not accept or believe in the concept of the trinity? No matter how much I pray, search, seek or study I can't grasp the concept of the trinity.

I suppose a lot of that comes from the fact when I was younger seeing people in Church roll around on the floor, praying in tongues etc etc first of all that always felt alien and not of God to me, but when my pastors spoke how it was a gift for Christians who are really blessed, I prayed and prayed for the gift of tongues and this Holy Spirit and I never ever once spoke in tongues, fell on the floor or was overcame by such a force.

Please help me understand I am so confused :\

Thanks for any replies in advance.

Richard

The issue here is not if there is a "trinity", but what is the definition of the trinity. Many denominations teach the trinity doctrine in one form or another. The trinity is actually a catholic doctrine, which they state that the three are on in body and in spirit. My opinion is that any other form of this would not fit under the definition of the "trinity". For instance if we believe that the three are one only in character, or in spirit, this does not count as "the trinity" and many denominations argue the trinity doctrine falsely.

You said that the bible does not teach the trinity, and I agree 100%. What really opened my eyes to the truth about the trinity is the fact that Jesus prayed to His father in John 17. If they were one mind and body and spirit then Jesus would be praying to Himself, while sitting on the throne in heaven, even though Jesus is seen many times sitting at the right hand of God who is on the throne. To agree that they are one in character and spirit only is not really the "trinity". I refer to the Godhead as tri unity.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It's not exactly right. The bible actually calls jesus both "everlasting God" and "eternal father", isiahs 9 famous prophecy says this is literally his name.

ANd the word is God. "And his name shall be wonderful councellor, almighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace". Gotta read all the verses u know.

Not so, eternal father in the Young's Literal Translation is translated better as Father of eternity. Meaning father of time, or creator of eternity or time.

The Augustinian clergy say that Jesus is saviour, but also the Father is saviour, all are creator, Jesus is also our father... I will ask them again for detail. This comes from Augustine bishop of Hippo's De Trinitate.

 

[Hillsage]

I don't believe that salvation means passing a theology exam.

That is the point I kept trying to make to the couple yesterday.

But if we are to be faithful preachers of the Gospel then I think the theology matters tremendously. So it's not that we have to believe the right things to be saved, that would be salvation by works,

How, in your opinion, can you believe that being 'faithful preachers of theology matters tremendously' when, at the same time, you think 'not believing the right things are unnecessary for 'initial salvation'? I am adding 'initial (justification) salvation' to your words, to distinguish from the (sanctification) salvation I believe we work on for the rest of our lives (making Him Lord). Something which happens after initially accepting Christ (as our Savior) because he IS Lord.

but we fail to preach the Gospel rightly when our theology is significantly in error. Good theology isn't about having my ducks lined up in a row so I can get my seat in the great hereafter; it's about being faithful, honest, and true in regard to God and what God has done for us in Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

For me, correct doctrine simply paints the best picture of Christ's character. And that picture...or character "likeness"...is what we should pursue after, until the day we die. But 'that gospel' is the 'fellowship' gospel we pursue AFTER we receive whatever is minimally essential to have entered into a 'saving relationship'...as born again believers.

Just exactly 'what' is minimally required in the 'relationship gospel' is a subject of great disagreement though. So, while I agree initial salvation isn't a theology exam, I'm curious as to what you might think is minimally required?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The apostles were Hebrew in thought and relational, letter writers, testifiers, prophecying... and the Greeks were saved in believing. But if one said he thought Jesus was Michael, the archangel, he would need to be corrected in order to have the faith that saves.

 

[Uber Genius]

think it is more about believing than understanding

Well...the NT authors labored diligently, and signed their testimony in blood.

The early church fathers labored to help us understand the trinity, and signed their testimony in their blood.

So that modern Christians could ignore those writings, not love God with all their minds, and just "believe."

How does anyone just believe something they don't understand?

Suppose I ask you if you believe in the trinity. You say, "absolutely." I say, "What is the doctrine of the Trinity?" To which you reply, "I have no idea, I can't describe or explain it, I just believe it."

 

[Uber Genius]

I studied and fervently prayed and God brought me out the pit and planted my feet on the Rock.

There you go.

Clearly I'm inveighing against the elimination of study which produces an endless supply of comic musing on this site about, "What $&)@- means to me is..."

But I don't have to encourage people to take the easy path but rather the hard one (which is study).