A Discussion of Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Rights

[Monk Brendan]

Sojourner, in a note for these fora, asked these questions about same-sex marriages:

Is it a civil right?

Yes, it is. If it is legal for two people to marry for all of the other reasons, I cannot see why it should be illegal--or in any other way less than legal. I will make the assumption that both are of age, that one or the other is not being coerced, etc.​

Is it legal to discriminate against homosexuals or same-sex marriages?

No! Note I am saying LEGAL. It has been illegal for a long time to disciminate against blacks, Amerindians, Oriental, or any other race.

However, If (Note, I said IF) I was a gay man trying to get a cake or flowers for my wedding, if someone said NO, I would say, "well the baker down the street will make a cake for me. If you don't want my business, he does!"​

How does this affect the rights of religious organizations in regards to performing same-sex marriages?

Not all all. For instance, the Catholic Church will not perform same-sex marriage. That is their right. Neither I nor the government can (or should be able to) force my will on the Church.
​

The political and civil history of government involvement in marriage and how that pertains to the current debate.

I have heard people on the anti side say that same-sex marriage re-defines Marriage. Marriage has been re-defined so many times it makes my head spin. Just in my country alone (USA), marriage was re-defined by the Supreme Court by Loving vs. Virginia. It was re-defined by no-fault divorce. For that matter, the first time a Christian presbyter or bishop married a couple, marriage was re-defined.
If a same-sex couple should want to be civilly married, as long as they are of the same breed (human) and both are of age and neither is being coerced, fine.​

Note, I am saying that when it comes to civil marriage, there should be no difference.

 

[Winken]

.....and it is all based on non-Biblical "authority."

 

[Radrook]

I think it has to do with the social cultural environment in which Christians desire that their children should grow up in which causes the strong opposition to what you are suggesting should be accepted as natural,

 

[dzheremi]

I grieve for your abbot, sir.

 

[Radrook]

I grieve for your abbot, sir.

Sure you don't mean Costello?

 

[truefiction1]

If we buy into the idea (falsehood) that there is a separation that can exist between Church and state, then this civil vs religious marriage argument might make sense. However, there is no such separation, and whatever one single person does, even in what might be felt to be total isolation, effects all of humankind spanning all of time and space. There is no separation: we are all part of each other -- one body. When people afflict themselves with death by turning from God and following their own selfish desires, the rot that they bring upon themselves tries to spread like gangrenous poison to the rest of the body in order to afflict it with the stench of its evil. We are not made to live unto ourselves. Such a state is not Life, but death. It is not Light, but darkness. It is not good, but evil. "Woe unto them who call evil good, and good evil" (Isaiah 5:20).

 

[Monk Brendan]

.....and it is all based on non-Biblical "authority."

That doesn't matter. If the law of the land says that under such and so conditions you must rub blue mud into your belly button, or you are subject to fine, imprisonment, and/or death, you follow the law. If such a silly law was passed in this country, I would be the first one passing a petition to have it revoked.

AND I WOULD NOT RUB BLUE MUD IN MY BELLY BUTTON!

The laws of USA are not based on Biblical authority. They are based on British common law, which says that if a man and a woman have been living together (including sex) for six months, they are married.

If such a couple come in to a bakery and asks for a ten year anniversary cake, does the baker ask them to show a wedding license? NO! He takes the order.

In the same way, if a gay couple comes in to a bakery to order a tenth anniversary cake, WHY should the baker care if it is going to be used for an immoral purpose? All he should care about is making sure that the order is taken correctly, the cake is baked and decorated properly, and getting paid. If a Christian baker declines to bake such a cake, the gay couple shouldn't sue, they should just find another baker.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I grieve for your abbot, sir.

Grieve away! What you care doesn't mean anything to me, or to him. He is in care of me loving Jesus. And he feels that same way that I do.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I'm pretty neutral on it. Why? Because in the Bible, homosexual sex was the sin. Not orientation because you can't control than whether you're gay, straight, or bi—then again, those in Biblical times had little to no knowledge of neurology, and had probably never encountered two people of the same sex who felt genuine affection toward each other.

Also keep in mind, being gay isn't just a thing that can happen with humans, animals can be gay too. And that's not even getting into the confusion of those rare people (and animals) who are intersex (I know one person on this forum is).

 

[Smidlee]

God laws overrides man laws. God is Truth and the more man laws move away from God the more it will lead to corruption and chaos. Just look at the events that happen since our government legalize so called gay marriage. All authority and power comes from God and He will judge those powers according to righteousness and truth. There is no such thing as gay marriage.

The principles of good and evil are not based from nature. Animals are not accountable to God as man is. For example male dolphins will "gang rape" a female dolphin including kill her young even when the female is resisting. I surely hope you don't claim gang rape should be legal since we see dolphins doing it.
This fact cause CS Lewis to question where the concept of evil comes from since it's not found in nature which lead him to God.

 

[SilverBear]

God laws overrides man laws. God is Truth and the more man laws move away from God the more it will lead to corruption and chaos. Just look at the events that happen since our government legalize so called gay marriage. All authority and power comes from God and He will judge those powers according to righteousness and truth. There is no such thing as gay marriage.

And a generation ago people were saying the same thing about interracil marriage

 

[Smidlee]

And a generation ago people were saying the same thing about interracil marriage

The scripture doesn't say anything about interracial marriage is an abomination to the Lord. It's always the believer not to be yoked with an unbeliever.
We know that Moses married an Ethiopian woman in Numbers 12.

 

[drjean]

That doesn't matter. If the law of the land says that under such and so conditions you must rub blue mud into your belly button, or you are subject to fine, imprisonment, and/or death, you follow the law. If such a silly law was passed in this country, I would be the first one passing a petition to have it revoked.

AND I WOULD NOT RUB BLUE MUD IN MY BELLY BUTTON!

The laws of USA are not based on Biblical authority. They are based on British common law, which says that if a man and a woman have been living together (including sex) for six months, they are married.

If such a couple come in to a bakery and asks for a ten year anniversary cake, does the baker ask them to show a wedding license? NO! He takes the order.

In the same way, if a gay couple comes in to a bakery to order a tenth anniversary cake, WHY should the baker care if it is going to be used for an immoral purpose? All he should care about is making sure that the order is taken correctly, the cake is baked and decorated properly, and getting paid. If a Christian baker declines to bake such a cake, the gay couple shouldn't sue, they should just find another baker.

aye there's the rub... for you see the laws of the USA ARE based upon Bible. A few good studies will show the similarities of the Bible and especially the 10 Commandments to our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and expressly the Mayflower Compact and other beginning documents. Then add in the speeches, letters and statements made at the time by the very signers of those documents, and well, it will become quite clear.

Perhaps the Bible doesn't state per se thus and thus about how to clip your dog's toenails, but it surely displays, keeping in the same vein, how to treat animals. All of these arguments are often rabbit trails begun by someone who refuses to address their main argument: Who is Jesus and why should I believe in Him ( because... and then the secondary topic).

The Bible prohibits same sex marriage. Very clearly. Either one accepts God's Word or he doesn't. If a US court makes a judgment, while it might become law, it doesn't make it accurate nor final. No one power in the USA has total jurisdiction, and the SCOTUS is not to make law (as it has seemingly done lately) but is only to interpret a lower court finding according to the US Constitution. Once SCOTUS does make a ruling though, making it law, the only way to change it is in Congress making an Amendment to the Constitution. But it's becoming a law doesn't necessarily make it right ( for obviously laws of this land are made by man, who is not perfect.)

 

[WolfGate]

Is there a difference between an atheist man and atheist woman who get married by a justice of the peace and two men who get married by a justice of the peace? From a civil, secular standpoint I don't really think so - both of those are merely a legal joining under the laws of the government.

Is there a difference in the two above and two believers, a man and a woman, who get married and take their vows before God? Yes, there is. While they also have produced a legal joining under the laws of the government they also have produced a biblical marriage under the authority of God.

I truly wish that the word "marriage" had not been used for both these legal joinings and biblical marriage. I think it confuses people into thinking that all things we call "marriage" are identical - when they are not. While my church has not and I'm not advocating it, I do know a few churches have stopped doing the legal joining as a way to start making that clear to their people. Anyone who gets married in their church also has to see a justice of the peace first to cover the legal union. The church only handles the vows before God.

We are not a theocracy and I don't want us to be one - we are a country of diverse beliefs and all of us should have a voice in the square of public debate. I want us to remain a country where I am free to worship my savior without restriction and be a light to those around who are in darkness. I am fine with laws being made to preserve the rights of those who are not believers as long as those laws don't restrict those of us who do believe.

 

[SilverBear]

The scripture doesn't say anything about interracial marriage is an abomination to the Lord. It's always the believer not to be yoked with an unbeliever.

the bible lists over 60 abominations - but we never hear about any of those

We know that Moses married an Ethiopian woman in Numbers 12.

You are speaking of Zipporah, a Cushite woman and eldest daughter of Jethro a priest in Midian. Midian was across the Red Sea from Egypt and the book of Ezekiel tells us that Cushites come from Arabia and Persia.

None of which changes the fact that fifty or sixty years ago people were saying the same thing you said but they were talking about interracial marriage.

 

[SilverBear]

aye there's the rub... for you see the laws of the USA ARE based upon Bible. A few good studies will show the similarities of the Bible and especially the 10 Commandments to our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and expressly the Mayflower Compact and other beginning documents.

American law was copied form English law which was copied from Roman law.

The Bible prohibits same sex marriage. Very clearly.

Where?

Either one accepts God's Word or he doesn't. If a US court makes a judgment, while it might become law, it doesn't make it accurate nor final. No one power in the USA has total jurisdiction, and the SCOTUS is not to make law (as it has seemingly done lately) but is only to interpret a lower court finding according to the US Constitution. Once SCOTUS does make a ruling though, making it law, the only way to change it is in Congress making an Amendment to the Constitution. But it's becoming a law doesn't necessarily make it right ( for obviously laws of this land are made by man, who is not perfect.)

The Supreme Court made no law. The court ruled that state laws prohibiting same sex marriage were unconstitutional.

 

[Monk Brendan]

But it's becoming a law doesn't necessarily make it right ( for obviously laws of this land are made by man, who is not perfect.)

I wasn't arguing that it is a man-made law. I was pointing out that it IS the law of the land--Just like legalized abortion is the law of the land. I hate it, but until such time as two-thirds of Congress votes it down (It doesn't need an amendment unless it is IN the Constitution to begin with), it will remain the Law of the land.

 

[Monk Brendan]

The scripture doesn't say anything about interracial marriage is an abomination to the Lord. It's always the believer not to be yoked with an unbeliever.

Read Loving vs Virginia. Until then, it was against the law in America for a racially mixed couple to be married.

 

[Monk Brendan]

If we buy into the idea (falsehood) that there is a separation that can exist between Church and state, then this civil vs religious marriage argument might make sense. However, there is no such separation, and whatever one single person does, even in what might be felt to be total isolation, effects all of humankind spanning all of time and space.

Does that make YOU guilty of the sins committed by Hitler? Absolutely not.

Unjust laws have been around since civilization began. "All have sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God." Are you going to ask the USA to give back Arizona and California to the Mexicans? THEY stole it from the native Indians.

Unjust laws are going to continue to happen until Jesus returns. HE is the only just judge!

 

[Monk Brendan]

I think it has to do with the social cultural environment in which Christians desire that their children should grow up in which causes the strong opposition to what you are suggesting should be accepted as natural,

I am not suggesting anything of the sort. I am describing a legal FACT. In the USA, it is lawful for two people of the same sex to be married. I am NOT saying that I agree with it or not--nor will I. You see, I happen to know a gay couple. Both are up there in years. They have been together for over 20 years. They love each other deeply. However, for both of them, Jesus is the first person in their lives. The stay together because both have found that each makes the other a better person. When it became legal, they got married. NOT to legalize their bedroom habits. Both of them are celibate. They married because if one or the other should become sick, who would take care of them? Neither are well enough or able enough to clean the house, pay the bills, wash dishes, etc.

For this couple, it is a good thing that they are married, legally. If one is in a hospital, the other can come in and visit, any time. There are a number of other reasons. All of them add up to them being the models of "Piety" in the church they attend, and the pastor, who knows what is going on, has stated, "As long as I am pastor, you are members of the parish."