Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[miknik5]

Fallen angels were NEVER even once saved
Having never initially lost their salvation

 

[miknik5]

No I can do nothing outside of Christ. Jesus died for my sins without me, I have nothing in that I cannot save myself. he did the work on the cross and I receive him believing in God's work for me and he come into the believers heart by FAITH, and works in us to will and to do. These works are in Christ and evidence of our being justified by Christ .They are not the salvation intimated. But the evidence of a good tree producing good fruit. A corrupt tree cannot produce such fruit. If we continue to sow to the spirit we shall reap everlasting life, as scripture says. And if while we seek to be justified we ourselves are found sinners is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.



I never said we are identical to angels here. But the example of angels is used in scripture as a warning to believers and so you must reconsider your entire doctrine. What i am showing by the angels sinning and ending up in the lake of fire, is that a perfect being in all his ways and one who walked with God and was in the truth, fell away from that and did not remain in the truth and will end up in the lake of fire. The argument from your camp have said that once we are with God we can never go away or leave or fall etc. But this is false and many scriptures can be brought to show the error of this. In using Lucifer who fell and will end up with the fallen angels in the lake of fire. i show clearly that they were in the truth and with God and can still be cast down to hell and the lake of fire.

To me there really is no argument against this, it is very self evident. A eternal being perfect in the truth can fall and go to the lake of fire. How much clearer do you need?



Like i said you nor any other has answered the clarity of that section. If I remember you were corrected by my answers but would not admit the truth there. So you have given no answer against your doctrine from Hebrews 3 as i used it to show that your doctrine is not true

Men are not eternal and perfect beings

CHRIST came to save the children (who are of flesh)

Not fallen angels

 

[LoveofTruth]

Fallen angels were NEVER even once saved
Having never initially lost their salvation

They are a warning for believers in scripture.

They were in the truth and life of God as believers are now and as Adam and Eve were in some sense. Lucifer was created perfect on all his ways and kept in Gods love and power and walked with God and had life and then he fell and did not abide in the truth and will go to the lake of fire. This is a warning that a heavenly being in eternal life and the truth of God who was perfect in all his ways can fall away from god and go to fire. God did not force any angel to stay with him. They all had a choice as we humans do also.

This argument for angels once being in the life and eternal life and in the truth of God and losing that is the point and it is an unanswerable one from all the discussions i have seen about it. The angels who are in eternal life ten go away from God and have no truth in them and do not abide ( or remain) in that truth) shows a high heavenly being can fall and go away from God.And so the writers of scripture ( inspired by the Holy Ghost) say that if God spared not them , the implication is take heed lest he spare not you.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Men are not eternal and perfect beings

CHRIST came to save the children (who are of flesh)

Not fallen angels

When God made man they were good, no sin yet. They walked with God and were in eternal life. Then they sinned and lost that and had to be born again.

In scripture we read that God has perfected forever them that are sanctified. Paul says he spoke wisdom among them that are perfect. God will make us perfect unto every good work to do His will.

and all believers who abide in Christ have eternal life. Our spirit is eternal.

So the angels are a very similar argument.

They were with God and can fall and go to the lake of fire. Men were with God and can fall and go to the lake of fire. Angels were in the truth ( jesus is the truth) and they can chose not to abide in that truth as the Devil did not abide) and depart from God. Believers are in the truth (in Jesus Christ who is the truth) and they can depart from God through an evil heart of unbelief through the deceitfulness of sin and a hard heart (Hebrews 3:12 etc etc)

 

[miknik5]

They are a warning for believers in scripture.

They were in the truth and life of God as believers are now and as Adam and Eve were in some sense. Lucifer was created perfect on all his ways and kept in Gods love and power and walked with God and had life and then he fell and did not abide in the truth and will go to the lake of fire. This is a warning that a heavenly being in eternal life and the truth of God who was perfect in all his ways can fall away from god and go to fire. God did not force any angel to stay with him. They all had a choice as we humans do also.

This argument for angels once being in the life and eternal life and in the truth of God and losing that is the point and it is an unanswerable one from all the discussions i have seen about it. The angels who are in eternal life ten go away from God and have no truth in them and do not abide ( or remain) in that truth) shows a high heavenly being can fall and go away from God.And so the writers of scripture ( inspired by the Holy Ghost) say that if God spared not them , the implication is take heed lest he spare not you.

They were warnings just as Noah and sodom and Gomorrah were warnings

So that we would not fall away but would persevere even through these trials and tests of our faith

What was the theme of Peter's letters

 

[miknik5]

The whole point was to remind us that we are sojourners here and to keep our eyes on THE LORD and in HIS GOOD AND FAITHFUL PROMISES through all trials and struggles

 

[miknik5]

They are a warning for believers in scripture.

They were in the truth and life of God as believers are now and as Adam and Eve were in some sense. Lucifer was created perfect on all his ways and kept in Gods love and power and walked with God and had life and then he fell and did not abide in the truth and will go to the lake of fire. This is a warning that a heavenly being in eternal life and the truth of God who was perfect in all his ways can fall away from god and go to fire. God did not force any angel to stay with him. They all had a choice as we humans do also.

This argument for angels once being in the life and eternal life and in the truth of God and losing that is the point and it is an unanswerable one from all the discussions i have seen about it. The angels who are in eternal life ten go away from God and have no truth in them and do not abide ( or remain) in that truth) shows a high heavenly being can fall and go away from God.And so the writers of scripture ( inspired by the Holy Ghost) say that if God spared not them , the implication is take heed lest he spare not you.

This isn't our true home. This is a shadow of the perfect world that also fell due to our disobedience

And this is not our final home

Satan had the perfect existence but fell

We are fallen but through CHRIST we are already being gathered up and seated in the heavenly realms and we wait by hope in HIM who will come and make all things new at the BRIGHTNESS of HIS coming in which not all flesh will be able to stand

 

[miknik5]

And those who love and long for HIS COMING are receiving the goal of their faith

Even their salvation

GOD has made it that all who hope in HIM will not be disappointed

It's CHRIST in us who is our HOPE

CHRIST is not in all and all are not born of HIS SPIRIT

 

[miknik5]

Satan did not have to be born again

HE was perfect
But he hated the plan of salvation from the beginning and rebelled because beauty was not found in him

 

[LoveofTruth]

The whole point was to remind us that we are sojourners here and to keep our eyes on THE LORD and in HIS GOOD AND FAITHFUL PROMISES through all trials and struggles

The whole point I am making with the angels is that beings in eternal life walking with God can choose to depart from God and fall away and end up in the lake of fire. if this is possible for the angles it is certainly possible for man. That should end the whole controversy about men who say they are saved and can never fall away. Scripture clearly teaches men can fall away , and from salvation ( grace) if God kept the angels in him as they abode in the truth and cast them out and down to hell, for not abiding in the turret and falling away from him, then this can happen to all believers. We are kept by the power of God through continual faith. If we continue in the faith. If is conditional.

so the bottom line here is that angels who were perfect in all their ways and walked with God were not forced to be kept by God, they fell away showing they had a choice to do so. This is a warning for all those who walk with God and who think they cannot fall away

 

[miknik5]

Judas had his eyes on temporal treasures and did not recognize the LORD as TRUE TREASURE from heaven

If judas had recognized HIM he would have had his eyes more on THE LORD and pleasing HIM rather than on things and pleasing himself

 

[LoveofTruth]

And those who love and long for HIS COMING are receiving the goal of their faith

Even their salvation

GOD has made it that all who hope in HIM will not be disappointed

It's CHRIST in us who is our HOPE

CHRIST is not in all and all are not born of HIS SPIRIT

The sed of Christ, the word is sown in the hearts of all, but all do not receive that word. as the parable shows. This seed will give them life in Christ if they come to him and believe. But to those who believe not the devil comes and takes away that which was sown in their heart lest they should believe and be saved.

The true Light still eightieth every man that cometh into the world , John 1:9.and when men hate that light then are they condemned, not before John 3. This also defeats the calvinistic view that men are condemned before they are born.

 

[miknik5]

The whole point I am making with the angels is that beings in eternal life walking with God can choose to depart from God and fall away and end up in the lake of fire. if this is possible for the angles it is certainly possible for man. That should end the whole controversy about men who say they are saved and can never fall away. Scripture clearly teaches men can fall away , and from salvation ( grace) if God kept the angels in him as they abode in the truth and cast them out and down to hell, for not abiding in the turret and falling away from him, then this can happen to all believers. We are kept by the power of God through continual faith. If we continue in the faith. If is conditional.

so the bottom line here is that angels who were perfect in all their ways and walked with God were not forced to be kept by God, they fell away showing they had a choice to do so. This is a warning for all those who walk with God and who think they cannot fall away

Do you also want to leave,

This is what CHRIST said to Peter in John 6

Why?

Because HE did not already know who did not believe in HIM

OR because HE did?


I'm pretty sure that the true answer is also found in John 6

 

[miknik5]

The sed of Christ, the word is sown in the hearts of all, but all do not receive that word. as the parable shows. This seed will give them life in Christ if they come to him and believe. But to those who believe not the devil comes and takes away that which was sown in their heart lest they should believe and be saved.

The true Light still eightieth every man that cometh into the world , John 1:9.and when men hate that light then are they condemned, not before John 3. This also defeats the calvinistic view that men are condemned before they are born.

What defeats the Calvinistic view (which you seem to have an issue with) is CHRIST's command (regardless of the views of men) to "GO"

Romans 10 also defeats the Calvinistic view

 

[LoveofTruth]

Judas had his eyes on temporal treasures and did not recognize the LORD as TRUE TREASURE from heaven

If judas had recognized HIM he would have had his eyes more on THE LORD and pleasing HIM rather than on things and pleasing himself

Judas fell by transgression it would seem sometime near the end of Jesus ministry, not at the beginning. At the beginning and even way before he even met jesus he belonged to the father John 17:6, and he along with the other apostles were given to jesus by the Father. Judas was an apostle, ( sent one of God) ordained by Jesus ( chosen and called), and one of "HIS" disciples, not the devils. He was given power by Jesus to cast out devils and preach etc and heal. No man can do anything like this unless they are in the vine, in Christ as jesus said in John 15:1-56 etc. Without jesus in them no man can do anything which shows that the 12 apostles who had effect in their ministry were in Christ.

 

[miknik5]

Also the lazy servant

The TRUTH is those who are called and told to "GO" were not told beforehand who would hear and believe

They were simply told to "GO" and cast the seed of LIFE

 

[miknik5]

Judas fell by transgression it would seem sometime near the end of Jesus ministry, not at the beginning. At the beginning and even way before he even met jesus he belonged to the father John 17:6, and he along with the other apostles were given to jesus by the Father. Judas was an apostle, ( sent one of God) ordained by Jesus ( chosen and called), and one of "HIS" disciples, not the devils. He was given power by Jesus to cast out devils and preach etc and heal. No man can do anything like this unless they are in the vine, in Christ as jesus said in John 15:1-56 etc. Without jesus in them no man can do anything which shows that the 12 apostles who had effect in their ministry were in Christ.

When did Judas fall?

During Jesus' physical ministry or the outpouring of the HOLY SPIRIT upon all those who would believe?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Do you also want to leave,

This is what CHRIST said to Peter in John 6

Why?

Because HE did not already know who did not believe in HIM

OR because HE did?


I'm pretty sure that the true answer is also found in John 6

Jesus knew all men. And we know God nows all things. Even when God created Lucifer perfect n all his ways and walked with him, he still knew Lucifer would fall. This does not mean that God made lucifer fall or that jesus made Judas fall.

Knowing something is far different than making them sin. Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Also the lazy servant

The TRUTH is those who are called and told to "GO" were not told beforehand who would hear and believe

They were simply told to "GO" and cast the seed of LIFE

all 12 of those who were ordained, sent were saved men in Christ and they were saved sheep sent to the LOST sheep. They were as she in the midst of wolves, they ( the 12 apostles) were not the wolves themselves.

it seems that when a doctrine is exposed as not being biblical,( such as OSAS etc) those who have been taught such a doctrine for so long will have a great difficulty to abandon it , I marvel at how some scriptures so clearly expose this error and yet it os ignored and fought against. I can only pray and hope that the truth will make men free when they see it and free from all doctrines and ways and anything that is not of God.

 

[miknik5]

Jesus knew all men. And we know God nows all things. Even when God created Lucifer perfect n all his ways and walked with him, he still knew Lucifer would fall. This does not mean that God made lucifer fall or that jesus made Judas fall.

Knowing something is far different than making them sin. Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Oh I didn't say that at all. I didn't attribute evil and wickedness to GOD but that it indeed exists in the world

Here's another thought to consider
GOD knows EVERYTHING

CHRIST was planned from
The beginning

Because GOD knew everything