Yeshua, Lord of Hosts

[visionary]

We are not told the exact moment. It really doesn't matter. All that matters is that the only true God was living inside His Son (a separate being) as He reconciled the world to Himself. That shows that the belief that "God became a man" is not true. God did not become a man, but God came to live in a man for our sake.

"the only true God was living inside His Son" [flesh] .. Yep, God in the flesh.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Arians believe the Son preexisted as a living being. I don't.

Uh yeah, THAT is so much better...heresy either way

 

[danny ski]

Let me offer another solution. Moses did no turn to our forefathers, pointed at Gd and said "That's the Lord of Hosts, or his son, or someone else. One day you'll worship him, or them." He did say " You'll have no other gods before Me" So, who, again, is the Lord of Hosts?

 

[gadar perets]

"the only true God was living inside His Son" [flesh] .. Yep, God in the flesh.

The problem is, when you say "God in the flesh" you mean God became a flesh and blood man, not that a flesh and blood man had God dwelling in him.

 

[gadar perets]

Uh yeah, THAT is so much better...heresy either way

Heresy to the unlearned, truth to the learned.

 

[visionary]

The problem is, when you say "God in the flesh" you mean God became a flesh and blood man, not that a flesh and blood man had God dwelling in him.

God took on the skin like a cloak, remain God, was seen in the image of a man, from birth to death, and forever more. When Yeshua transfigured, His glory shone through.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Heresy to the unlearned, truth to the learned.

Ah yes, we can all see how "learned" you are LOL!

 

[Hoshiyya]

Shared titles do not make two beings the same being. Case in point; Cyrus and Yeshua both being YHWH's "maschiach".


Angels cannot die.

And Yahshua answering said unto them, The sons of this age marry, and are given in marriage, but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to the angels; and are sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection." (Luke 20:34-36).​

Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 are referring to Yeshua being the beginning and firstborn of YHWH's new creation, not the old creation.

Proverbs 8:24-26 -
One need only read verses 1-12 to realize that a pre-existant Son is not speaking in verses 24-26. The Scriptures declare the speaker to be wisdom. The glorious wisdom Yahweh possessed before He created all things is personified in these verses. Notice, also, that wisdom is personified as a female, not a male. Proverbs 8:1 reads, "Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?" And Proverbs 9:1 says, "Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars." If Yeshua pre-existed as the epitomy of wisdom, why does Revelation 5:12 say he is worthy to receive wisdom? Surely an all-wise pre-existant being has no need of further wisdom.

1 Corinthians 1:30 says, "But of him are ye in Messiah Yeshua, who of [Yahweh] is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:" This verse declares that Yeshua was "made unto us wisdom." It does not say he existed as wisdom in the past. Psalm 104:24 says, "O Yahweh, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches." Yahweh used His great wisdom in the creation of all things. It was like a workman at His side.


John 1:3 is erroneously applied to the Son to prove he created every single thing.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

While "all" may not be literal, the bolded phrase is clear. Water was made, but not by the Son if the Son was not created until light was made. The fact is, the logos of John 1 was not a living being, but the Father's spoken words and thoughts. The logos was a thing, not a living being. That is why translations that preceded the KJV used "it" instead of "him" in their translations. One example is Tyndale's translation;

"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
​

Several other major translations do the same such as the "Great Bible", "Thomas Matthew Bible" and the "Geneva Bible".

"Shared titles do not make two beings the same being"

The Father and Son share many titles, but they are not the same.
Yeshua however is explicitly called the Word and many other titles that leave no ambiguity as to who he is. Many early Christians actually understood this, prior to Trinitarianism being forced through in church councils.

"Angels cannot die."

God is almighty. He can do anything.
That's why he says "You (referring to angels) shall die like men". That's the entire point of the statement. How could you possibly fail to comprehend this.

Saying men will die like men is totally meaningless. He says DESPITE being elohim, and bney elyon, you (the angels he is talking to) shall die like mortals. This is something they did not expect, and the ENTIRE POINT of the psalm.

While "Wisdom" is grammatically feminine, so what? Yeshua compares himself to a hen in the New Testament.
Yeshua is Wisdom.

 

[gadar perets]

God took on the skin like a cloak, remain God, was seen in the image of a man, from birth to death, and forever more. When Yeshua transfigured, His glory shone through.

So, in other words, after God became a man He remained God. Yet, God died???? God is immortal.

Yeshua was transfigured in a vision of his future glory.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Let me offer another solution. Moses did no turn to our forefathers, pointed at Gd and said "That's the Lord of Hosts, or his son, or someone else. One day you'll worship him, or them." He did say " You'll have no other gods before Me" So, who, again, is the Lord of Hosts?

The statement "You shall have no elohim other than me" depends entirely on who is speaking. God rarely if ever speaks without using his Word; it was the Word speaking. That's why he acknowledges that other elohim exist, because there are other elohim (supernatural beings) similar to the Word, BUT there are no beings/entities similar to the Creator.

All the nations received their elohim, their spiritual princes (cf. Daniel ch.10), at the division of the nations at Babel. Israel did not exist yet, so they could not have received their elohim at that time. At Sinai their relationship to their elohim was codified.

Incidentally, it makes complete sense that Yeshua would be incarnated physically, since the other elohim, as stated in psalm 82, will be incarnated physically and die like men, as did Yeshua.

 

[gadar perets]

"Shared titles do not make two beings the same being"

The Father and Son share many titles, but they are not the same.
Yeshua however is explicitly called the Word and many other titles that leave no ambiguity as to who he is. Many early Christians actually understood this, prior to Trinitarianism being forced through in church councils.

I agree that Yeshua is the Word. The issue is, when did he become the Word? A trinitarian would say he always existed as the Word. I say he became the Word at his conception. What do you say?

"Angels cannot die."

God is almighty. He can do anything.
That's why he says "You (referring to angels) shall die like men". That's the entire point of the statement. How could you possibly fail to comprehend this.

Saying men will die like men is totally meaningless. He says DESPITE being elohim, and bney elyon, you (the angels he is talking to) shall die like mortals. This is something they did not expect, and the ENTIRE POINT of the psalm.

Yeshua referenced Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34-35:

Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
​

The word of God came to the Jews, not angels. The "gods/elohim" of Psalm 82:6 are the mighty men of Israel who were in leadership roles (judges, magistrates, etc. as in Exodus) Verses 2-5 show how those men were failing in their responsibilities (responsibilities that angels don't have).

Verse 7 means that, although they held powerful positions in Israel, they will die like common men.

 

[Hoshiyya]

The ancient Jews understood the nature of the Word:


And the Father who created the universe has given to His archangelic and most ancient Word [Logos] a pre-eminent gift, to stand on the confines of both, and separated that which had been created from the Creator. And this same Word [Logos] is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race, which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race. And the Word [Logos] rejoices in the gift, and, exulting in it, announces it and boasts of it, saying, "And I stood in the midst, between the Lord and you;" neither being uncreate[d] as God, nor yet created as you . . . (p. 293, The Works of Philo, "Who Is the Heir of Divine Things," translated by C.D. Yonge)

. . . The shadow of God is His Word [Logos], which He used like an instrument when He was making the world. And this shadow, and, as it were, model, is the archetype of other things. For, as God is Himself the model of that image which He has now called a shadow, so also that image is the model of other things, as he showed when he commenced giving the law to the Israelites, and said, "And God made man according to the image of God [Gen. 1:26]." As the image was modelled according to God, and as man was modelled according to the image, which thus received the power and character of the model. (p. 61, The Works of Philo, "Allegorical Interpretation, III," translated by C.D. Yonge)

 

[Hoshiyya]

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

You are assuming that men are called elohim, which may or may not be fair, but I don't know of any verse that has to be interpreted that way; and bizarrely you also assume that men do not die like mortal men. All men die like men. Only angels would be surprised to learn that they will die.

Yeshua in John 10 was defending bearing the title "son of God" by the logic that if other angels can be called by this title then so can he.

 

[gadar perets]

The ancient Jews understood the nature of the Word:


And the Father who created the universe has given to His archangelic and most ancient Word [Logos] a pre-eminent gift, to stand on the confines of both, and separated that which had been created from the Creator. And this same Word [Logos] is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race, which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race. And the Word [Logos] rejoices in the gift, and, exulting in it, announces it and boasts of it, saying, "And I stood in the midst, between the Lord and you;" neither being uncreate[d] as God, nor yet created as you . . . (p. 293, The Works of Philo, "Who Is the Heir of Divine Things," translated by C.D. Yonge)

. . . The shadow of God is His Word [Logos], which He used like an instrument when He was making the world. And this shadow, and, as it were, model, is the archetype of other things. For, as God is Himself the model of that image which He has now called a shadow, so also that image is the model of other things, as he showed when he commenced giving the law to the Israelites, and said, "And God made man according to the image of God [Gen. 1:26]." As the image was modelled according to God, and as man was modelled according to the image, which thus received the power and character of the model. (p. 61, The Works of Philo, "Allegorical Interpretation, III," translated by C.D. Yonge)

I do not build doctrines or even uphold them with the writings of a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher, especially since the above quotes are so nebulous.

 

[gadar perets]

Yeshua in John 10 was defending bearing the title "son of God" by the logic that if other angels can be called by this title then so can he.

Yeshua was appealing to Psalm 82:6 in response to the Jew's claim that Yeshua was making himself "God" (Elohim) (John 10:33). He used Psalm 82:6 to show that if mere MEN could be called "elohim", then why couldn't he be called the "Son of Elohim"? You have to deny Yeshua's words concerning who "the word of God came" to in order to support your belief. It did NOT come to angels, but men.

 

[visionary]

So, in other words, after God became a man He remained God. Yet, God died???? God is immortal.

Yeshua was transfigured in a vision of his future glory.

Man of God died, God didn't. God sacrificed "Himself" just as He told Abraham He would do.

 

[gadar perets]

Man of God died, God didn't.

I agree. Yeshua is the "man of God" (not the God/man) and he died. His Father YHWH who is God did not die because He is immortal.

God sacrificed "Himself" just as He told Abraham He would do.

If you are referring to Genesis 22:8, you are mistaken. Verse 13 provides the literal fulfillment of verse 8 in that God provided the sacrifice for "Himself". The future fulfillment would be God providing the sacrifice of His Son for "Himself". God cannot possibly sacrifice Himself since He cannot die. The future Lamb is undoubtedly Yeshua. Revelation 5:6-7 clearly teach us that the Lamb and the God he was sacrificed to are not the same being.

 

[AbbaLove]

At this time, the Word of God is Yeshua. Prior to his conception he was NOT the Word of God.

The Word of God Confirms The Deity of YHWH
(monotheism = Father and Son are One = John 10:30, John 14:9)
​

Genesis 1:3
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light

John 1:1-3, 14 (Rev. 19:13)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
2 this One was in the beginning with God;
3 all things through Him did happen, and without Him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten of a Father, full of grace and truth.

John 10:30
I and the Father are One.

John 14:9
Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 17:5 ("At this time, the Word of God is Yeshua" by gadar)
`And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

Revelation 19:12-13
12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and on His head were many royal crowns. And He had a name written which no one knew but Himself.
13 and He is arrayed with a garment covered with blood, and His name is called, The Word of God.

"no one knew but Himself" is a reference to the Deity of YHWH​

 

[gadar perets]

The Word of God Confirms The Deity of YHWH​

​

"The Word of God" = the Scriptures

"The Deity of YHWH" = the Deity of the Father

So, yes, I agree that The Word of God Confirms The Deity of YHWH.

If, by "The Word of God", you meant Yeshua, then yes, Yeshua confirms the Deity of YHWH as well when he prayed to his Father YHWH, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Yeshua Messiah, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

As for the verses you quoted, I addressed them several times, but each time you fail to show me why my understanding is incorrect. All you do is continually post the same verses over and over again (a sign that you do not understand them and have no defense against my Scriptural refutations of your belief).

 

[visionary]

I agree. Yeshua is the "man of God" (not the God/man) and he died. His Father YHWH who is God did not die because He is immortal.


If you are referring to Genesis 22:8, you are mistaken. Verse 13 provides the literal fulfillment of verse 8 in that God provided the sacrifice for "Himself". The future fulfillment would be God providing the sacrifice of His Son for "Himself". God cannot possibly sacrifice Himself since He cannot die. The future Lamb is undoubtedly Yeshua. Revelation 5:6-7 clearly teach us that the Lamb and the God he was sacrificed to are not the same being.

In Acts 20:28 we read of Paul exhorting the elders to “feed the church of God, which HE hath purchased WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.”