LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

[withwonderingawe]

As an aside, I know there's been lots of discussion as to whether the LDS concept of God seems like that of Gnosticism. I can see the parallel, but actually the discussions of eternal light and so forth seem to me to also have interesting parallels with ideas in Kaballah, and you might find that an interesting point of comparison and contrast.

I think if you compare the Gospel as taught by the LDS Church you will find a lot of similarities between them and many different religions of the world. We feel the Lord sent prophets to all the nations which taught them the truth. But over the thousands of years false prophets arose and apostasy distorted these truths until the time which Amos prophesied about.

Amos 8
11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor athirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

 

[withwonderingawe]

What other wittness did Smith have when this Native American came to him?

I'm always surprised by how little of our history others know. There were eleven other witnesses. Three of them saw the angel, they wrote

That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, .....And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us;....And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; ... And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true."
Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris

The Testimony of the other eight describes holding the plates and turning the pages

"...And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world..."
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Some of these men later apostatized or perhaps I should say joined other factions of the Church rather than the main body in Salt Lake but they never denied their testimonies of what they saw and handled.

Oliver was the one which helped to translate the plates. His life wound around in a strange way becoming disaffected mostly over the Law of Consecration, the idea of giving all that he had to the Church was a little overwhelming for him. But at the end of his life he came back and was re-baptized. He was asked by a man named Jacob Gates if it was all true;

He picked up the Book of Mormon and read the Testimony and then said;

‘Jacob, I want you to remember what I say to you. I am a dying man, and what would it profit me to tell you a lie? I know … that this Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. My eyes saw, my ears heard, and my understanding was touched, and I know that whereof I testified is true. It was no dream, no vain imagination of the mind—it was real.’

 

[dzheremi]

There are issues with the testimony of the witnesses, to put it politely.

On the three:

And on the eight:

The take-home point of both of these videos is that the published testimonies probably do not match the actual experiences of the people they claim to be from. It's not that the witnesses lied, exactly; more that there's what we are meant to infer from the statements published in the preface to the BOM, and there's what much more likely actually happened, and the two are not the same.

 

[miknik5]

*Bump*
Miknik5 do you believe that the Father/Son/Spirit are 3 different persons, which is part of the Trinity and agree with LDS beliefs?

Nope like I said you truncated and only offered this:


FATHER .SON and HOLY SPIRIT are three different persons


Where's the rest of that misleading sentence?

 

[miknik5]

HERE IT IS

THESE THREE ARE ONE

There aren't three different persons but ONE GOD

ONE HOLY SPIRIT
and the TRUTH that he who has THE SON has THE FATHER also...but they are ONE

 

[miknik5]

Many profess to have god(s) but deny THE SON

GOD in HIS WISDOM by sending HIS SON

TRUE AND HOLY AND PREFECT flesh (THE Son of Man)

TRUE AND HOLY AND PERFECT SPIRIT (THE SON of GOD)

Shut the mouths of every other lying whispering spirit who denies the TRUTH of ONE GOD

that it is only through Christ (born of HIS life giving SPIRIT) that one has access to the FATHER by that ONE SPIRIT

GOD is SPIRIT
No man can see SPIRIT which is invisible

And a SPIRIT can only be made manifest by a visible vessel

CHRIST came to "show us THE FATHER"

And HE has all authority to show/teach/reveal/manifest/declare THE FATHER because HE came forth from GOD

 

[Jane_Doe]

Nope like I said you truncated and only offered this:


FATHER .SON and HOLY SPIRIT are three different persons


Where's the rest of that misleading sentence?

Wow, you really refuse to actually answer a question.

Do you are do you not believe that FATHER .SON and HOLY SPIRIT are three different persons? This is agreed upon in the Trinity and LDS beliefs.

If you will not answer this simple question, then you refuse to have any further rational conversation.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Wow, you really refuse to actually answer a question.

Do you are do you not believe that FATHER .SON and HOLY SPIRIT are three different persons? This is agreed upon in the Trinity and LDS beliefs.

If you will not answer this simple question, then you refuse to have any further rational conversation.

Jane it's just so hard for us to wrap our heads around it because we are use to concrete logic rather than this metaphysical concept.

As I understand it there is this 'being' made up of nothing but thinking power. There is no atom or structure of any kind and it's without gender also. It thought Jesus and Jesus was but at the same time Jesus has always been so I'm not sure how that works. Jesus is the logos of this being, the word of the being?? whatever that means? Jesus is the 'being' but he is not the 'being'.

 

[withwonderingawe]

There are issues with the testimony of the witnesses, to put it politely.

On the three:

And on the eight:

The take-home point of both of these videos is that the published testimonies probably do not match the actual experiences of the people they claim to be from. It's not that the witnesses lied, exactly; more that there's what we are meant to infer from the statements published in the preface to the BOM, and there's what much more likely actually happened, and the two are not the same.

Basically Dan Vogel does not believe in any type of supernatural experience so it all must be false. He’s an atheist and doesn't believe in Jesus anymore than he believes in Joseph Smith. He tries to explain the witnesses all away by calling their experience just their 'imagination' and group hypnosis. He takes the different stories and try to show inconsistencies.

As an example his first point is that Martin saw his vision separately from David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery.

The story is that all 4 went together into the woods and knelt down to pray but nothing happen. Martin decided it was his fault because of his unbelief. So he stepped away and the others continued in prayer and the Angel appeared to them. When that vision was over Joseph went looking for Martin and found him kneeling in prayer seeking the faith he needed. Joseph joined him and he too saw the same vision the other saw.

Now somehow because this is not written into the testimony of the three witnesses it makes it false. No reason is given that it makes it false just that the story is not there. And how does group hypnosis work like that?

He then tries to take their accounts and read into them more than what is there, it’s called repackaging. We see it today with all political spinning going on. People have been doing this from the beginning, it’s not new.

Martin Harris was Joseph Smith’s first scribe, but until he saw the Angel he never saw the plates. He was always behind a curtain or they were covered. He did however move them around, he said,

“I hefted the plates many times, and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds.”

William Smith Joseph’s youngest brother and 16 at the time never saw them. However he says he felt them through a cloth and they were 60 lb. He said he could feel the leaves and the rings running through the back.

There were at the time a lot of rumors and misconceptions by outsiders, because one or two people miss quoted the witnesses it does not discount their witness.

Here’s an odd point, David Whitmer never handled the plates, while he saw them he never touched them. Oliver and Martin both handled them at different times as they were working as scribes and the 8 other witness also held them and turned the leaves.

Now if you want to have a real technical explanation you can go here and read Richard Lloyd Anderson answer to Vogal.

http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1399&index=4

 

[miknik5]

Basically Dan Vogel does not believe in any type of supernatural experience so it all must be false. He’s an atheist and doesn't believe in Jesus anymore than he believes in Joseph Smith. He tries to explain the witnesses all away by calling their experience just their 'imagination' and group hypnosis. He takes the different stories and try to show inconsistencies.

As an example his first point is that Martin saw his vision separately from David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery.

The story is that all 4 went together into the woods and knelt down to pray but nothing happen. Martin decided it was his fault because of his unbelief. So he stepped away and the others continued in prayer and the Angel appeared to them. When that vision was over Joseph went looking for Martin and found him kneeling in prayer seeking the faith he needed. Joseph joined him and he too saw the same vision the other saw.

Now somehow because this is not written into the testimony of the three witnesses it makes it false. No reason is given that it makes it false just that the story is not there. And how does group hypnosis work like that?

He then tries to take their accounts and read into them more than what is there, it’s called repackaging. We see it today with all political spinning going on. People have been doing this from the beginning, it’s not new.

Martin Harris was Joseph Smith’s first scribe, but until he saw the Angel he never saw the plates. He was always behind a curtain or they were covered. He did however move them around, he said,

“I hefted the plates many times, and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds.”

William Smith Joseph’s youngest brother and 16 at the time never saw them. However he says he felt them through a cloth and they were 60 lb. He said he could feel the leaves and the rings running through the back.

There were at the time a lot of rumors and misconceptions by outsiders, because one or two people miss quoted the witnesses it does not discount their witness.

Here’s an odd point, David Whitmer never handled the plates, while he saw them he never touched them. Oliver and Martin both handled them at different times as they were working as scribes and the 8 other witness also held them and turned the leaves.

Now if you want to have a real technical explanation you can go here and read Richard Lloyd Anderson answer to Vogal.

http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1399&index=4

Wow!!!!!!!!!


CHRIST JESUS and the MESSAGE of THE CROSS

or
Plates!!!


Whatever should we put our faith in?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Wow!!!!!!!!!


CHRIST JESUS and the MESSAGE of THE CROSS

or
Plates!!!


Whatever should we put our faith in?

The Book of Mormon teaches the message of the cross;

3Nephi 27:14
13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

 

[miknik5]

The Book of Mormon teaches the message of the cross;

3Nephi 27:14
13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

Can I stick with the WORD of GOD?
Do I need this new addition to the WORD of GOD?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Can I stick with the WORD of GOD?
Do I need this new addition to the WORD of GOD?

Miknik5, can you tell me where in the Bible it says that an unchanging God decided to stop giving scripture?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Can I stick with the WORD of GOD?
Do I need this new addition to the WORD of GOD?

You asked
CHRIST JESUS and the MESSAGE of THE CROSS
or
Plates!!!
Whatever should we put our faith in?

My answer is we don't have to choose between the two because the message Book of Mormon is the cross.

1Nephi 11
31 And he spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Lamb of God going forth among the children of men. And I beheld multitudes of people who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils and unclean spirits; and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me. And they were healed by the power of the Lamb of God; and the devils and the unclean spirits were cast out.

32 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record.

33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

2 Nephi 9:18
18 But, behold, the righteous, the saints of the Holy One of Israel, they who have believed in the Holy One of Israel, they who have endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame of it, they shall inherit the kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and their joy shall be full forever.

Jacob 1:8
8 Wherefore, we would to God that we could persuade all men not to rebel against God, to provoke him to anger, but that all men would believe in Christ, and view his death, and suffer his cross and bear the shame of the world; wherefore, I, Jacob, take it upon me to fulfil the commandment of my brother Nephi.

 

[miknik5]

Miknik5, can you tell me where in the Bible it says that an unchanging God decided to stop giving scripture?

Isaiah. 8 for one.
Not to mention the more obvious directive in Revelation not to add to or take away from what is written

For you do know that THE TESTIMONY of JESUS is THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY

Go back and reread the beginning and opening of Revelation

 

[Jane_Doe]

Isaiah. 8 for one.

What verse particularly.

Not to mention the more obvious directive in Revelation not to add to or take away from what is written

Written in the Book of Revelation. Not in the Bible or in general. If you claim that the Book of Revelation is a ceasing of writing scripture, then you are saying that every other book in the Bible written after Revelation is an admonition. These books include the Gospel of John, which you are very fond of: it that book an abomination?

There's also something very similar written in Dueteraramy about it's contents. But you in error interrupt that to mean no more scripture (like you are doing with the Revelation verse), you declare vast majority of the Bible to be an abomination.


Now: do you have any actual verses which say an unchanging God decided to cease giving scripture?

 

[miknik5]

What verse particularly.


Written in the Book of Revelation. Not in the Bible or in general. If you claim that the Book of Revelation is a ceasing of writing scripture, then you are saying that every other book in the Bible written after Revelation is an admonition. These books include the Gospel of John, which you are very fond of: it that book an abomination?

There's also something very similar written in Dueteraramy about it's contents. But you in error interrupt that to mean no more scripture (like you are doing with the Revelation verse), you declare vast majority of the Bible to be an abomination.


Now: do you have any actual verses which say an unchanging God decided to cease giving scripture?

Done
If you think there is domehjmng that needs to bbe added to the story of mankind's salvation in, by and through HIS SON, it already reveals that you do not understand the magnitude of the story of mankind's salvation in, by and through THE SON

Nothing will be added to THE FOUNDATION

You may do so. But in the end it will be revealed for what it is

Manmade yeast added to THE PURE, UNADULTERATED BRRAD of the WORD OF GOD

Not needed

1 corinthians 3 I believe

 

[Jane_Doe]

Done

???? What verse???

If you think there is domehjmng that needs to bbe added to the story of mankind's salvation in, by and through HIS SON, it already reveals that you do not understand the magnitude of the story of mankind's salvation in, by and through THE SON

Nothing will be added to THE FOUNDATION

You may do so. But in the end it will be revealed for what it is

Manmade yeast added to THE PURE, UNADULTERATED BRRAD of the WORD OF GOD

Not needed

1 corinthians 3 I believe

This is irrelevant to my question.

 

[miknik5]

???? What verse???


This is irrelevant to my question.

Then add away!

 

[withwonderingawe]

The Book of Mormon explains the Atonement, it is a second witnesses to the Bible.