Was Justice satisfied on the Cross?

[Light of the East]

Is this how the East views the Cross?

What exactly happened on the Cross in the Orthodox view?

Thank you.

 

[gzt]

No - all of these words have a lot of assumptions in them in that sentence.

If you look at the bare-bones story, before we even get to theology, in the synoptic gospels the surface level meaning is that we have a just man who is condemned to death and is vindicated by God by his resurrection on the third day. The rest of our theology unfolds off of that. So if we're talking about justice being "satisfied", whatever that is, it looks like that satisfaction is the resurrection of the righteous man, who is in fact God in the flesh. So that's our starting point.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is this how the East views the Cross?

not in the modern use of the term. God's justice was not satisfied, because being God, He has no need for His justice to be satisfied.

What exactly happened on the Cross in the Orthodox view?

the Word of God died in the flesh, and in so doing, He destroyed death's hold on the world.

 

[Light of the East]

Not in the modern use of the term. God's justice was not satisfied, because being God, He has no need for His justice to be satisfied.

So Anselm's "eternally offended God" does not really exist?

Interesting side note: I did a word search on "justice." It does not appear at all in the New Testament.

And the words "justify" and "just" in the NT have to do with "make one righteous" or in right standing with God. There appears to be a serious lack of legal language there.

the Word of God died in the flesh, and in so doing, He destroyed death's hold on the world.

I just read that the Orthodox view teaches that we have an organic connection with the Last Adam, just as with the first, and because in this organic connection, Christ defeated death by death, then we are dead to death.

"That which is not assumed is not changed." The God/man assumed our nature, changed it, and has reunited mankind to God.

Very different from paying off a legal debt, wouldn't you say?

 

[truefiction1]

Is this how the East views the Cross?

What exactly happened on the Cross in the Orthodox view?

Thank you.

In the Orthodox view, what exactly happened on the Cross is something that cannot be captured by cognitive mechanisms. It is the great mystery of Salvation. The various metaphorical images given in the Bible point to Salvation but do not explain it. When Anselm explained salvation solely in terms of "satisfied justice", he ventured into falsehood.

 

[jckstraw72]

here's a good article on the matter: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/christcross.aspx

 

[Light of the East]

here's a good article on the matter: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/christcross.aspx

That is really a great article! Thanks!

 

[~Anastasia~]

here's a good article on the matter: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/christcross.aspx

Btw, I had figured you wouldn't mind - I shared your post with link in another thread asking about these things.

I learned a thing or two from that article as well. Thanks for sharing!

 

[jckstraw72]

glad y'ins like it!

 

[YCGP]

Thank you for posting that article. That was the biggest piece of writing on God that I have read. It was a lot to take in, and I did not retain most of it, but it did satisfy some kind of curiosity inside me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So Anselm's "eternally offended God" does not really exist?

nope. God does not have emotions like that.

I just read that the Orthodox view teaches that we have an organic connection with the Last Adam, just as with the first, and because in this organic connection, Christ defeated death by death, then we are dead to death.

"That which is not assumed is not changed." The God/man assumed our nature, changed it, and has reunited mankind to God.

Very different from paying off a legal debt, wouldn't you say?

yep

 

[Cappadocious]

not in the modern use of the term.

Yep.

God does not have emotions like that.

Well He doesn't get offended like a medieval aristocrat, but He has been Known to be jealous and angry from time to time.

 

[ArmyMatt]

He has been Known to be jealous and angry from time to time.

just not jealous or angry in an emotional sense, since He is beyond emotion and perfectly dispassionate.

 

[Petros2015]

just not jealous or angry in an emotional sense, since He is beyond emotion and perfectly dispassionate.

How is that reconciled with Old Testament scriptures and examples? Exodus 32:10-14 and others. Dispassionate does not seem to apply to what I see there. And these writings are said to be inspired by the Holy Spirit who 'spake by the prophets'. I have been struggling with this a lot lately, unfortunately and I'd like to arrive closer to where you are with it, I just find it difficult. Pointers appreciated.

 

[Light of the East]

How is that reconciled with Old Testament scriptures and examples? Exodus 32:10-14 and others. Dispassionate does not seem to apply to what I see there. And these writings are said to be inspired by the Holy Spirit who 'spake by the prophets'. I have been struggling with this a lot lately, unfortunately and I'd like to arrive closer to where you are with it, I just find it difficult. Pointers appreciated.

I would also be interested in understanding this. For instance, how does one love without having a corresponding emotion?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

 

[ArmyMatt]

How is that reconciled with Old Testament scriptures and examples? Exodus 32:10-14 and others. Dispassionate does not seem to apply to what I see there. And these writings are said to be inspired by the Holy Spirit who 'spake by the prophets'. I have been struggling with this a lot lately, unfortunately and I'd like to arrive closer to where you are with it, I just find it difficult. Pointers appreciated.

they are inspired. the writers back then used the language that they could. since God is so "other" and unlike us, the Prophets and saints use language to help us understand. it's like saying the hand of God in the OT, even though we know He is invisible and beyond space, and therefore has no hand in the sense that we have until the Incarnation

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Here is the Wikipedia article on our conception of the atonement. Wikipedia is certainly not always reliable in representing Orthodox theology, but this looks fine to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor

 

[Cappadocious]

just not jealous or angry in an emotional sense, since He is beyond emotion and perfectly dispassionate.

Passions are often emotional, but not all emotions are passions.

 

[truefiction1]

How is that reconciled with Old Testament scriptures and examples? Exodus 32:10-14 and others. Dispassionate does not seem to apply to what I see there. And these writings are said to be inspired by the Holy Spirit who 'spake by the prophets'. I have been struggling with this a lot lately, unfortunately and I'd like to arrive closer to where you are with it, I just find it difficult. Pointers appreciated.

This will be difficult to grasp at first, but the language used is the language of God. In order to feel what is being stated in such passages one must interpret them literally while knowing at the same time that they are not literal. By doing this we get just a small glimpse of God's holy perspective. Take the following passage, for example:

"And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." (Genesis 6:6)

What is it really saying to us here, knowing that in God "there is no change nor shadow of alteration" (James 1:17) and Who knows all things before they are. If such a Lord was really sorry that he had made man on the earth, then why had He made man in the first place, having always known what man would do?

What we want to do with such passages is to imagine that God is just an ordinary person (like us) who has made a huge mistake and has truly created an overwhelmingly horrible situation by doing so: such a horrible situation that something drastic must be done now in order to rectify it and the whole affair is causing God the deepest grief. Then we would want to realize that this excruciating heartache is a mere taste of what God experiences when even so much as one of His sheep is lost to Him (and to themselves, actually) in sin. Such is God's Love for each of His creatures. God is not really sorry that he made us, otherwise He would not have. The passage gives us a glimpse into God, if we can receive it.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Passions are often emotional, but not all emotions are passions.

I'm pretty sure all emotions are passions, but some emotions are blameless passions.

Regardless, God certainly doesn't experience emotion except through the incarnation.