Racist Jokes

[MrSpikey]

What about those Comedy Central roasts? Those are designed to insult and denigrate, but they're all in good fun. Does the audience matter more than the joke in determining whether something is immoral or not?

Roasts denigrate an individual who has agreed to participate, and the jokes are targeted at that individual specifically. It's not really the same thing.

 

[MrSpikey]

Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles has hilarious jokes using the n-word or about rape. If you're not Mel Brooks, you might not want to try to go that far.

Do you think examples like this may be viewed differently as the years roll by? I enjoyed the film many years ago as a kid, but would it translate the same to younger audiences today?

 

[Moral Orel]

Roasts denigrate an individual who has agreed to participate, and the jokes are targeted at that individual specifically. It's not really the same thing.

Well, what if you know I love white jokes, and I'm white, so you tell me some terrible, insulting, denigrating, white jokes. Is that bad? If it is, why? What harm is caused? We both have a good laugh, and there's no one around to be offended.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Well, the question isn't whether the joke is racist or not, it's whether it's bad to tell a racist joke. So if the joke is clearly about racial stereotypes, but no one gets offended, is that okay? No matter how terrible the joke's material is?

I already answered this. Jokes that are meant to poke fun at are okay, jokes that deride or ridicule are not. It is irrelevant if people get offended or not, since there will inevitably be people offended by both. It is sometimes a fine line to tread though.

 

[RDKirk]

So if it's a well written joke, delivered by a talented joke-teller, and the audience likes it, it's not bad, even if it clearly would offend other people when told by the same person? I think we agree, I just got confused through the racial v racist part.

And you're still confused because you're still using the terms "white joke" and "black joke."

Acknowledging a characteristic is not automatically and necessarily disparaging it. To acknowledge, for instance, "Chinese food" is not "racist" against the Chinese.

There is probably an inherent problem with a "joke" as told by some guy on the street who heard it as compared to an artist of comedy revealing the humor of a situation he has observed.

It's like a man with no art talent attempting to draw a caricature. That man doesn't have the talent to see and then illustrate the correct features to emphasis to produce a funny and thoughtful caricature. He will produce an offensive monstrosity instead.

An artist of comedy sees human situations the way a good caricature artist sees human faces. Not only does he see what should be emphasized, he also has the physical talent to reproduce it.

 

[Moral Orel]

I already answered this. Jokes that are meant to poke fun at are okay, jokes that deride or ridicule are not. It is irrelevant if people get offended or not, since there will inevitably be people offended by both. It is sometimes a fine line to tread though.

Since how harsh a joke is is subjective, wouldn't this mean that it isn't how the joke teller intends to use the joke that determines whether it's actually bad or not? No matter how terrible, insulting, and harsh some folk may think a joke is, the joke-teller could mean it in good fun, and just use it to "poke fun". And if he and the audience don't feel it crossed a line, then who's to say there is a line? It seems to be more about intention to me, and the audience reaction is a good indicator whether intentions were right. And, to a greater extent, audience reaction, when often bad, is a good indicator that the joke-teller shouldn't be telling those types of jokes to that audience, and continuing to do so is bad. Perhaps he shouldn't be telling jokes at all if he receives a lot of negative responses.

 

[Moral Orel]

And you're still confused because you're still using the terms "white joke" and "black joke."

Acknowledging a characteristic is not automatically and necessarily disparaging it. To acknowledge, for instance, "Chinese food" is not "racist" against the Chinese.

In the context I used them, it should be clear I mean "racist against" though. In the context of the thread itself I am always using "racist joke" or "white joke" to mean something along the lines of "what's the difference between a white guy and a..." followed by some stereotype comparison. I'm still confused about your semantics argument.

There is probably an inherent problem with a "joke" as told by some guy on the street who heard it as compared to an artist of comedy revealing the humor of a situation he has observed.

It's like a man with no art talent attempting to draw a caricature. That man doesn't have the talent to see and then illustrate the correct features to emphasis to produce a funny and thoughtful caricature. He will produce an offensive monstrosity instead.

An artist of comedy sees human situations the way a good caricature artist sees human faces. Not only does he see what should be emphasized, he also has the physical talent to reproduce it.

There's definitely a huge difference between a joke of the classical form, and a joke that is part of a stand up comedian's set. Are classical form jokes, which talk about false racial stereotypes always bad, or can people appreciate a joke for a joke?

 

[RDKirk]

In the context I used them, it should be clear I mean "racist against" though. In the context of the thread itself I am always using "racist joke" or "white joke" to mean something along the lines of "what's the difference between a white

guy and a..." followed by some stereotype comparison. I'm still confused about your semantics argument.

There's definitely a huge difference between a joke of the classical form, and a joke that is part of a stand up comedian's set. Are classical form jokes, which talk about false racial stereotypes always bad, or can people appreciate a joke for a joke?

A joke based on a stereotype is most likely going to be offensive.

 

[Moral Orel]

A joke based on a stereotype is most likely going to be offensive.

Depends on the audience. Like I said, I love white jokes based on white stereotypes. As a Polak, I've known plenty of other Polaks who love to tell jokes about how dumb we are, and I've seen Irish people joke about being drunks, and Jewish people joke about being cheap, etc. Whether something is offensive or not is really just about whether someone in the audience is offended. Is it bad to tell racially stereotyped jokes to an audience that enjoys them?

Granted, of course, a group of white supremacists getting together to hear a white comic tell a bunch of jokes about black stereotypes isn't good.

But if a group of people from a few different races gets together and swaps jokes about the different races in the group, stereotypes and all, is there any harm if everyone is genuinely laughing?

 

[RDKirk]

Depends on the audience. Like I said, I love white jokes based on white stereotypes. As a Polak, I've known plenty of other Polaks who love to tell jokes about how dumb we are, and I've seen Irish people joke about being drunks, and Jewish people joke about being cheap, etc. Whether something is offensive or not is really just about whether someone in the audience is offended. Is it bad to tell racially stereotyped jokes to an audience that enjoys them?

Granted, of course, a group of white supremacists getting together to hear a white comic tell a bunch of jokes about black stereotypes isn't good.

But if a group of people from a few different races gets together and swaps jokes about the different races in the group, stereotypes and all, is there any harm if everyone is genuinely laughing?

It's all fun and games until someone's eye gets shot out.

 

[keith99]

Us Irish tend to brag about our alcohol tolerance. As long as an Irishman can hold onto a single blade of grass and not fall of the face of the Earth he is not too drunk!

I just would like to figure out if that joke is mocking the Irish or the 'science' that some Christians seem to believe.

Side note. Any Pollock joke that works equally well as a blonde joke really does not work at all for either.

 

[Moral Orel]

Side note. Any Pollock joke that works equally well as a blonde joke really does not work at all for either.

Every Polak joke is interchangeable with every dumb blonde joke is interchangeable with every dumb woman joke is interchangeable with every dumb man joke is interchangeable with every Polak joke... There is of course the other type of blonde joke...

When I was in grade school I found a joke book that was supposed to be "appropriate for all ages", which it was; there wasn't anything dirty in it. But it had a section for Polak jokes, only the author pretended to make up some fake country where everyone there was stupid. Being a Polak, even at that age, I recognized most of them. Sneaky, sneaky...

 

[Moral Orel]

It's all fun and games until someone's eye gets shot out.

Very true. I've inadvertently crossed that line a few times over the years, but I've gotten much more careful. People can't be trusted to know where their own personal line of decency is, I learned that the hard way. That isn't to fault them, we all think we know ourselves better than we really do. But when you know people really well, and you've endeavored to find out where that line is for them (if it exists at all, which it doesn't for some folk) you can tell jokes right up to the line and still get a laugh.

The point of the thread, though, is to see if there's any inherent harm in the jokes themselves even when the people who hear the joke don't get offended.

 

[RDKirk]

The point of the thread, though, is to see if there's any inherent harm in the jokes themselves even when the people who hear the joke don't get offended.

Presuming you know. Presuming someone who didn't seem offended simply marked you as someone not to be trusted and not to be respected.

Presuming someone who wasn't offended didn't mark you as a kindred spirit of his own bigotry.

 

[keith99]

Every Polak joke is interchangeable with every dumb blonde joke is interchangeable with every dumb woman joke is interchangeable with every dumb man joke is interchangeable with every Polak joke... There is of course the other type of blonde joke...

When I was in grade school I found a joke book that was supposed to be "appropriate for all ages", which it was; there wasn't anything dirty in it. But it had a section for Polak jokes, only the author pretended to make up some fake country where everyone there was stupid. Being a Polak, even at that age, I recognized most of them. Sneaky, sneaky...

Uh, no.

What is the mating call of a blonde?

How do you tell the bride at a Polish wedding?

 

[Moral Orel]

Presuming you know. Presuming someone who didn't seem offended simply marked you as someone not to be trusted and not to be respected.

Presuming someone who wasn't offended didn't mark you as a kindred spirit of his own bigotry.

Right, presuming you know. I'm not talking about telling jokes to strangers and gauging their response. I'd say being reckless with where you aim your jokes is immoral as well. Criminal indifference, if you will.

Not when it comes to racist jokes, necessarily, but when it comes to offensive jokes in general, I have people tell me a joke that they think is truly terrible before I tell them one of mine. That's the best way to gauge whether someone is comfortable joking about a topic or not. And so far, after hundreds of clinical trials on my own part, it is infallible. Going first is quite the opposite.

If you know your friends well enough to know whether they're bigots or not, then it isn't an issue when they're not. Even if they are, it'll only make it easier to out them as a bigot if they were keeping it a secret somehow.

So it isn't hard to tell who your audience is, what they're comfortable with, and why they're comfortable with it. You just can't tell jokes to strangers.

 

[Moral Orel]

Uh, no.

What is the mating call of a blonde?

How do you tell the bride at a Polish wedding?

You got me on the second one. You're right that Polak jokes aren't all interchangeable. The first one isn't a dumb blonde joke though, it's the other kind of blonde joke.

 

[Cimorene]

Uh, no.

What is the mating call of a blonde?

How do you tell the bride at a Polish wedding?

What is the mating call of a blonde?

Why would anybody make jokes about Polish people?

 

[Moral Orel]

What is the mating call of a blonde?

It's crude, and involves the stereotype that blondes are "loose" women. If you really want to know the punchline, you can PM me and I'll tell you, but that type of humor isn't appropriate here, and I'm trying my best to respect that.

Why would anybody make jokes about Polish people?

Same reason anyone makes jokes about any ethnicity. People mock their neighbors basically. They really took off with Nazi propaganda though during WWII. But that wasn't the first time someone made a Polak joke.

 

[Dave-W]

Why would anybody make jokes about Polish people?

It is a regional thing - mostly around Chicago. Polish jokes have been around since at least the 1950s. I heard them as a kid in the early 60s.

In Canada it was Newfie jokes. In Texas it was Aggie jokes. The content of all those jokes were pretty much interchangeable.