How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[bling]

This is not necessarily true. I have met people who were, by their own admission, enjoying their life of sin and having no regrets. By no concerted effort did their heart bring repentance. God stirred them and made them alive (Ephesians 2:4).

The prodigal son would have told you he was happy when he first entered the foreign land, but he was just starting his spiral down to the pigsty of life.

Every mature adult will go through situations that bring them to their senses and it is at those times they will make the choice to seek God’s help (for selfish reasons) or quench that desire and look elseward.

I did not address this: but after a person has been given enough opportunities to accept God’s help and have refused to the point of never accepting God’s help (this is something only God can know), that person takes on the lesser purpose of being used to help others fulfill their earthly objective.


Eph. 2: 4 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

Paul is addressing existing Christians and not non-Christians?

 

[bling]

No rebel ever surrenders. They must be captured, put on trial and sentenced. That sentence is hell...unless the judge chooses to pardon the rebel. God does that choosing. People do not "switch sides" as though it were a kids game in the backyard. No, this is real warfare and rebellion against God, the Creator. Judgment will fall and it either falls on me or on Yeshua, my redeemer.

Wimping out (surrendering) is something any mature adult can do. The rebel prodigal son when he left home would have said, “I am never coming back”, but he did return.

Good soldiers have surrendered when they come to their senses and realize they will not win.

Humans are not prodigal sons. They are rebels and bandits from outside the family. Only God can adopt us. It is after adoption where we can go astray and God waits for our return. This is not the case for someone who is not a family member.

If some humans are not like the prodigal son than Jesus is misleading us?

Jesus describes what the people have seen themselves in rebellious disobedient children, so I see prodigal sons frequently in life.

I am describing people being like the prodigal son with the same disposition, actions and results.

The nonbelieving sinner has God as his enemy even if and when he surrenders at the point of surrendering, but by surrendering God can shower him with gifts.

Jesus tells us in the prodigal son story that a person in a dead state (by Christ’s definition of dead) can still come to their senses and chose to accept God’s charity.

If preachers say to people: “come to God/Christ for salvation” are they lying to the un-elect?

 

[bling]

I understand your model, but why then does God not save everyone?

There must be a valid reason as to why God chose to not save everybody.

Not why men did not freely choose God when they could have-

but, why did God allow bad choices that would eternally condemn the man?


Either scenario Heaven is not full and the outcome is the same.

So, did God's will occur or did man manifest his freewill choices?

God’s “will” is always being done, but part of His will is to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective, so they can become like God, Himself in that they have Godly type Love. The problem is man has to mentally exercise some limited free will in order to have Godly type Love. This limited autonomous free will allows the individual to control some of his/her thoughts.

Godly type Love cannot be made instinctive to man or it is nothing more than a robotic type Love and God cannot force this Love on man (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) since it would not be “Loving” on God’s part nor would the Love forced on the person be Godly type Love.

The bad choices (all mature adults sin) actually work toward helping the nonbeliever sinner to humbly accept God’s Love in the form of forgiveness. The only way nonbelievers humbly accept God’s charity is in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness, which automatically provides Godly type Love to the former nonbeliever. He that is forgiven an unbelievable huge debt will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

The reason not everyone is “saved” is not because they sinned (since everyone sins), but because they did not humbly accept God’s forgiveness as pure charity for those sins. God is doing all He can, but cannot force a person to accept His Love against their own will, since that will not product Love in them.

Heaven is like one huge “Love Feast” but that Love is only Godly type Love and if a person has demonstrated repeatedly they will never want such Love, then those people would not be happy in heaven.

 

[sdowney717]

God’s “will” is always being done, but part of His will is to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective, so they can become like God, Himself in that they have Godly type Love. The problem is man has to mentally exercise some limited free will in order to have Godly type Love. This limited autonomous free will allows the individual to control some of his/her thoughts.

Godly type Love cannot be made instinctive to man or it is nothing more than a robotic type Love and God cannot force this Love on man (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) since it would not be “Loving” on God’s part nor would the Love forced on the person be Godly type Love.

The bad choices (all mature adults sin) actually work toward helping the nonbeliever sinner to humbly accept God’s Love in the form of forgiveness. The only way nonbelievers humbly accept God’s charity is in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness, which automatically provides Godly type Love to the former nonbeliever. He that is forgiven an unbelievable huge debt will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

The reason not everyone is “saved” is not because they sinned (since everyone sins), but because they did not humbly accept God’s forgiveness as pure charity for those sins. God is doing all He can, but cannot force a person to accept His Love against their own will, since that will not product Love in them.

Heaven is like one huge “Love Feast” but that Love is only Godly type Love and if a person has demonstrated repeatedly they will never want such Love, then those people would not be happy in heaven.

Bling, God's grace is the grace by which you are saved, not for those who go to hell.
read v4
Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

 

[sdowney717]

If we believe through grace, and salvation is a gift, then so is that grace whereby which we are saved.
Acts 18:27
And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

Those who do not have that grace and so then do not believe have not God's grace, but the grave only.

 

[sdowney717]

1 Corinthians 1:4
[ Spiritual Gifts at Corinth ] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus,

1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[sdowney717]

Ephesians 3:7
of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Ephesians 4:7
[ Spiritual Gifts ] But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

2 Thessalonians 2:16
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,

 

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin, You know that I do not agree with your theology, but I do so respect you in that you state what you believe and why. You take so much heat for the Calvinist view because the view is not represented properly or openly by so many who believe it. I hope that you are feeling better.

Thanks.
I'm doing pretty well and my vision is clearing daily.

I don't care a great deal to convince everyone to see things my way. After all, a person's salvation doesn't depend on whether they are Reformed, Calvinist, Arminian, or something else within reason.

There are a few here however who seem to take the idea of successful Christian sanctification to such a level that they seem to me to have crossed the line into what I would call preaching a gospel of works - which, as I read it all, is not another gospel at all. But rather it's preaching is very bad news instead - especially for those preaching it.

Having said that - I love to discuss theology and I feel that correct theology is very important for us all. But what I really don't tolerate well at all is being misrepresented in my beliefs again and again after I have made it a point to correct the person more than once.

As you know, I don't exactly agree with everything often taught by full on Calvinists. But of course, being of a generally Reformed theological school, I line up with them more closely than I do with most non-Calvinists.

What I'm sure that all full on Calvinists have in common with me (and probably you as well) is a really strong reaction concerning people who misrepresent their beliefs apparently purposefully. It's not so much those who are just mistaken about Calvinist's beliefs. It's those who will not be corrected about them and keep making the same charges again and again after being corrected. That comes down to lying about a fellow Christian in my view.

The Westminster Confession of Faith is quite often misrepresented here. I don't agree with it blindly but I do reference it often because it is likely the most authoritative general representation of Calvinist beliefs available.

They went out of their way several times to make it virtually impossible that anyone could possibly say that Calvinist views concerning predestination amount to being "robots and puppets" or that predestination means scripting the choices made willingly by men.

And yet - there people go again and again making the same old false charges about Calvinism.

There's more than one area to legitimately criticize the theology of Calvinists IMO. But their view on predestination is not one of them.

 

[sdowney717]

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:7
that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 1:10
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,

 

[sdowney717]

1 Peter 3:7
[ A Word to Husbands ] Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

1 Peter 5:10
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.

1 Peter 5:12
[ Farewell and Peace ] By Silvanus, our faithful brother as I consider him, I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God in which you stand.

 

[sdowney717]

1 Peter 5, the true grace of God in which we stand, Peter teaches in v10!
Which is truly God's upward call of God in Christ Jesus for all who are the called of Jesus Christ.

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.

11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Who called 'us' that is all His saints that He had called are those He settles, perfects, strengthens, establishes in the faith.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Where do I claim to be the expert?

You're being silly at this point. I will continue to point you toward Romans and Ephesians until you actually read these passages and admit to then being the word of God.

I now understand what another poster said about your actions.

Many posters are not understandable in grace , and not understandable out of grace - i.e. with or without grace.
In person, perhaps, the reason would be obvious and seen; but not necessarily - even in person most people keep secrets and most people don't disclose what they are depending on - even in the smallest or the biggest churches , even in the home groups.
So, on an anonymous forum, where we cannot see if we are speaking to a man, woman, child or a bot (more bots are logged in this site, than humans, according to the 'visitors' page, every day),
there is a lot covered up.

The pain and suffering some have gone through,
the reason someone is isolated,
the reason someone believes the way they do,

remains a secret.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is not necessarily true. I have met people who were, by their own admission, enjoying their life of sin and having no regrets. By no concerted effort did their heart bring repentance. God stirred them and made them alive (Ephesians 2:4).

It is good for them if YHWH stirred them and made them alive, yes.
RE "I have met people who were, by their own admission, ....."
living in sin, and refused to repent.
(in church!) They just didn't care, and did not realize the price they would pay, and
if they were stirred by YHWH(GOD) they did not show any indication ever.
Could they ever be made alive?
Certainly.
But , like Jerusalem, only if they were (or became) willing.

 

[bling]

Bling, God's grace is the grace by which you are saved, not for those who go to hell.
read v4
Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

I totally agree that everyone that is saved is saved by grace, so what is your point?

Do you believe God loves some and not others for some arbitrary reason?

In Your opinion: what is God’s reason for Loving some and not others if there is no difference between them?

Did Jesus only love those that were being saved?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you believe God loves some and not others for some arbitrary reason?

I do not know if it can be called 'arbitrary' or not,
but
it is written someplace the "YHWH LOVES US FOR NO REASON AT ALL". HE JUST DOES.

The point being, (if I remember correctly), in what I read, is that
since
there is NO REASON HE LOVES US,
then
there is nothing that could happen to change that.

 

[sdowney717]

I totally agree that everyone that is saved is saved by grace, so what is your point?

Do you believe God loves some and not others for some arbitrary reason?

In Your opinion: what is God’s reason for Loving some and not others if there is no difference between them?

Did Jesus only love those that were being saved?

The same point I continually make in most of my posts in this forum.
The reason for God's love is an unknowable mystery that He does not have to explain to anyone, just that He does love us.
And the 'us' are those He saves, some from every tribe, tongue, nation.
Ephesians says

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

v6 tells us he saved us to demonstrate to all creation, and all creatures, the glory of His grace. And so then we praise God for the grace he gave us that actually saved us.

The 'praise of the glory of His grace' points to the excellency of His own self in choosing to forgive us all our evil sins and making us accepted in the Beloved, which is the Trinity of God whereby all the family of God are named, Him sealing us and putting upon us His mark that we are His forever.

1 Corinthians 6:17New King James Version (NKJV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

 

[MennoSota]

The prodigal son would have told you he was happy when he first entered the foreign land, but he was just starting his spiral down to the pigsty of life.

Every mature adult will go through situations that bring them to their senses and it is at those times they will make the choice to seek God’s help (for selfish reasons) or quench that desire and look elseward.

I did not address this: but after a person has been given enough opportunities to accept God’s help and have refused to the point of never accepting God’s help (this is something only God can know), that person takes on the lesser purpose of being used to help others fulfill their earthly objective.


Eph. 2: 4 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

Paul is addressing existing Christians and not non-Christians?

Bling, you forgot to finish Ephesians 2:4, which declares that God made us alive in Christ as opposed to Ephesians 2:1, which tells us we are dead in our trespasses.

You have created an imaginary argument, not found in the Bible. You still desire to make the prodigal son parable about those who are foreigners to the Father, not about a family member. Your interpretation is flat out wrong and non-biblical. I reject it as an argument coming off the top of your head and not from God's word.

Your observations serve, at best, to describe the process of sanctification, which we, as chosen children of the King, under go through this path we lead on earth. It does not hold true for the unregenerate for whom this world is their kingdom.

 

[sdowney717]

He saved us when we were blinded in our minds by Satan and following Satan and worshiping Satan and the things of the world. It says He did this because of His great love towards us. Not that we repented and believed and then He loved us which so many false teachers of Satan proclaim.

Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

So then God desired to love us and demonstrate His mercy towards us by saving us all for the glory of His grace. So then God made His choice, his own decision according to the council of His own will did He determine this, so then without the council of any man, no input from any man.
He did not do this for all people now did He! But only for those He predestined before the world was created to be conformed to Christ..

 

[MennoSota]

Wimping out (surrendering) is something any mature adult can do. The rebel prodigal son when he left home would have said, “I am never coming back”, but he did return.

Good soldiers have surrendered when they come to their senses and realize they will not win.



If some humans are not like the prodigal son than Jesus is misleading us?

Jesus describes what the people have seen themselves in rebellious disobedient children, so I see prodigal sons frequently in life.

I am describing people being like the prodigal son with the same disposition, actions and results.

The nonbelieving sinner has God as his enemy even if and when he surrenders at the point of surrendering, but by surrendering God can shower him with gifts.

Jesus tells us in the prodigal son story that a person in a dead state (by Christ’s definition of dead) can still come to their senses and chose to accept God’s charity.

If preachers say to people: “come to God/Christ for salvation” are they lying to the un-elect?

No rebel surrenders on his own accord. No, the rebel rebels unto death. It takes God to capture him and chose to make him a member of God's family. (Ephesians 1 and 2 are very clear on this subject.)

No humans are like the prodigal, unless they are one of the chosen. Yeshua was speaking to those under the chosen nation of Israel, not to foreigners when he gave the parable of the prodigal. You are butchering the text with your out of context interpretations.

When we share the good news to respond to God's call, we do not know whom it is that God is calling and redeeming. God doesn't ask us to do that. He only asks us to obediently preach Christ and Christ crucified. Those who respond do so only after God makes them alive. Ephesians 2:4 - "But God...made us alive..."

 

[MennoSota]

God’s “will” is always being done, but part of His will is to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective, so they can become like God, Himself in that they have Godly type Love. The problem is man has to mentally exercise some limited free will in order to have Godly type Love. This limited autonomous free will allows the individual to control some of his/her thoughts.

Godly type Love cannot be made instinctive to man or it is nothing more than a robotic type Love and God cannot force this Love on man (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) since it would not be “Loving” on God’s part nor would the Love forced on the person be Godly type Love.

The bad choices (all mature adults sin) actually work toward helping the nonbeliever sinner to humbly accept God’s Love in the form of forgiveness. The only way nonbelievers humbly accept God’s charity is in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness, which automatically provides Godly type Love to the former nonbeliever. He that is forgiven an unbelievable huge debt will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

The reason not everyone is “saved” is not because they sinned (since everyone sins), but because they did not humbly accept God’s forgiveness as pure charity for those sins. God is doing all He can, but cannot force a person to accept His Love against their own will, since that will not product Love in them.

Heaven is like one huge “Love Feast” but that Love is only Godly type Love and if a person has demonstrated repeatedly they will never want such Love, then those people would not be happy in heaven.

You are making a non-biblical argument.