Christianity... and the fact of evolution

[AV1611VET]

Oh I know it wouldn't be decisive . . . but you weren't the one to claim it as an argument, either. My point is, its not really an argument against evolution, since as soon as scientists make life creationists will go right on disbelieving in evolution anyway, and therefore it was always a false argument, and everybody should know it is a false argument.

In your case, everybody knows you don't even bother with logical arguments or evidence anyway.

I'll consider evolution when I see a cow give birth to a giraffe.

 

[pat34lee]

Time itself was created at the beginning of the universe, and time itself, as well as space expanded into the very large space time that we inhabit.
This means a period of time equivalent to 6 terrestrial days (as is implied by Moses) may in fact appear to be a lot longer time from an observation point within the created universe.

This is one inference from General Relativity and has been expermientally verified. The Rabbi Maimonides, in the 12th century determined this from the first verses of Genesis and of course the work of Albert Einstein brought the idea into popular scientific thought.
This article is informative: http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

So given the difference in perspective that relativity yeilds, who would be lying about how long things took to the person who claimed 6 days or the person who claimed a much longer time frame from their observation point? The answer is that neither is lying.

We can take the word of God literally because He is the Creator and the one who is telling the story from His perspective but we can also understand that time and space itself unfolded as it was created to make a space and time big enough for Gods creation to dwell within.

This is understanding and means that while we can confirm in our own minds that the observations of an apparantly old universe and earth are valid, we don't need head down some slippery slope of maligning the integrity of God.

I could agree if you were talking about an ancient universe
and a new earth, as the viewpoint of all scripture centers on
the earth. When God spread out the stars, he could have sent
age right along with them.

There are several problems with an old earth, biblically speaking.

No death before sin
Romans 5:12
1 Corinthians 15:21

God told the end from the beginning, or creation
Isaiah 46:10

History mirrors the creation week, and we are about
to end the six thousandth year and enter the Sabbath
rest. Just a small thing like the tribulation to go, and it
could already be started.
Psalms 90:4
2 Peter 3:8

Finally, do you think God could keep us safe for millions of
years, and let us destroy ourselves in a few thousand?
Without a handful of miracles, I don't see us living another
hundred years, and maybe not fifty. Between poison, pollution,
radiation, vaccines and GMO's, it's a race to see which will kill
us first or sterilize us to die off.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

The only contradictions are in the translations and interpretations of the word.

Here's a verse for your consideration. Paul wrote to the Corinthians and mentioned, in an aside, that he had not baptized any of them except the two he named:

1 Cor 1:14-15

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.
NASU

The contradiction comes in the very next verse:

1 Cor 1:16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
NASU

Now how it happened is pretty plain. Stephanas was baptized by Paul in another place, and then moved over to Corinth, winding up as a member there. Stephanas was probably actually taking the dictation of the letter, and probably interrupted Paul as he spoke (having already written on the parchment) "Hey Paul, you baptized me!" and Paul immediately put in the correction, honest man that he was.

The mere fact that he issued the correction is his testimony that the words needed correction, they were not inerrantly kept from every minor glitch.

The point is, the minor, inconsequential contradiction is frozen into the words for all eternity now, we can all see it.

 

[Archivist]

There is allegory and there is history. They are clearly defined where used.
Otherwise, as I said, it is impossible to tell history from fable.

Try reading Luke 10:25-37. Jesus doesn't identify what he is saying as a parable.

 

[KWCrazy]

Factual, no. It is a MYTH...an attempt by ancient man to explain how he got there, why he worships the god he worships and explain the hard questions of life that they were aware of, death, illness, failed crops. Every single ancient culture has one...who's to say the Genesis account is any more correct than any other one?

As a curiosity, why do you have "Christian" listed as your faith. You certainly do not believe what Christ taught. You're on a Christian website proclaiming the Scriptures to be false and calling God's account of creation a myth. Jesus said in John 5:
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Christian means "of Christ." Christ taught that the Scriptures were the inspired word of God. You claim them to be the uninspired musings of uneducated men. How does that conform to what Christ taught?

 

[AV1611VET]

Try reading Luke 10:25-37. Jesus doesn't identify what he is saying as a parable.

Who said it was?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

As a curiosity, why do you have "Christian" listed as your faith. You certainly do not believe what Christ taught. You're on a Christian website proclaiming the Scriptures to be false and calling God's account of creation a myth. Jesus said in John 5:
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Christian means "of Christ." Christ taught that the Scriptures were the inspired word of God. You claim them to be the uninspired musings of uneducated men. How does that conform to what Christ taught?

You do not get to define what a Christian is. You do not get to define MY faith for me. I get to do that. Christian literally means "one who follows Christ", it doesn't mean "one who holds to a literal meaning of the entire bible and freely condemns everyone who might have a different opinion". So...do not tell me I do not believe what Christ taught.

Oh, and in your quote there's nothing that tells me that Genesis 1 & 2 are an utterly scientific and historical fact. There are three scriptures that I base my life on...Matthew 25:31-46, Micah 6:8 and James 1:27. By the commonly accepted (and literal) definition of a Christian, I qualify. So sorry...you can continue to say I'm not a Christian or I don't believe whatever (which by the way is a TOS violation), but my faith is a matter between me and God...not me and you.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Who said it was?

Another person who does not understand literary devices or how lessons were taught in the ancient world.

 

[AV1611VET]

Another person who does not understand literary devices or how lessons were taught in the ancient world.

Even if it was a parable, I believe the parables were real events Jesus witnessed.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Even if it was a parable, I believe the parables were real events Jesus witnessed.

On the other hand, it is not something we are able to figure out to be definitely true. We'll have to wait for heaven to actually find out.

 

[mmksparbud]

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the and it was so. And God said, and it was so. And God said, and it was so.
Not and it will be so, or it is going to be so eons later,

Psa 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

When Jesus called forth Lazarus, he came forth, right then and there--not ages later. When He turned the water into wine, it was right then, when He healed it was immediate. When He commanded, Peace, be still, the sea became calm.
If God says He will do something later, it will be later, When He said, I will come again--He will, when He said Nebuchadnezzar would be like an animal for 7 years--it was 7 years. When He told Abraham the Jews would be in bondage 400 years, that's how long it took. When the bible days---God said, and it was so---that is exactly what happened. He spoke a world into existence. That is the power of his voice.
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
The second He says "It is done."--It will be done.

 

[Anguspure]

That's a real nonsensical word salad there.
Let's quit going for the wild, esoteric stuff, and go for plain ideas. String theory is something that changes often. So, one more time...let's ask the simple question...is there ANY repeatable evidence available that a person has ever created a universe? If yes, then I'd love to read the papers. If not, then...it seems that this sort of thing is impossible.

Well....we have a universe and the only plausible candidate for the cause of this universe is a person. This universe is shot through with intelligibility and design, the only source of which we know is intelligent people.
It does not seem impossible then that a person could create a universe.
Of course if you want to observe a repeat of this feat it might pay to become acquainted with the creator so perhaps He can show you another example.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Well....we have a universe and the only plausible candidate for the cause of this universe is a person. This universe is shot through with intelligibility and design, the only source of which we know is intelligent people.

You do understand that God is not a "person", right? God is a non-corporeal being. So, your hypothesis and supporting statements fall flat.

 

[Anguspure]

That doesn't answer his question. The question was, "Didn't Jesus know why the Father had forsaken him?". So the mere fact that the question was prophesied does not invalidate the issue of what Jesus knew on the cross. Isn't it really just a distraction?

Read Pasalm 22 and you will know what Jesus was saying. How can you even know the question you are asking unless you know what He was saying. When you understand Psalm 22, perhaps then you might be able to ask a sensible question about Eloi Eloi Sabachthani.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Read Pasalm 22 and you will know what Jesus was saying. How can you even know the question you are asking unless you know what He was saying. When you understand Psalm 22, perhaps then you might be able to ask a sensible question about Eloi Eloi Sabachthani.

So either Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 or God really had forsaken him...which is it?

 

[Anguspure]

I could agree if you were talking about an ancient universe
and a new earth, as the viewpoint of all scripture centers on
the earth. When God spread out the stars, he could have sent
age right along with them.

There are several problems with an old earth, biblically speaking.

No death before sin
Romans 5:12
1 Corinthians 15:21

Yeah, I have the Genesis Flood book on my shelf and realise there are problems. I find it hard to see how the natural world could exist without death in the sense of physical death. Plant life, for example, relies on the cycle of death and rebirth for the maintanence of healthy soil. (Benificial) Bacterial life multiplies at such high rates that without an equally quick death the whole world would be speedily overwhelmed. It seems that physical death is the phenomenon that maintains the correct balance of the natural world.
It is interesting that Adam and Eve were given the oft forgotten Tree of Life in the Garden and that we will offered fruit of the same Tree in the world to come so perhaps the death that entered the world is not what we think.

God told the end from the beginning, or creation
Isaiah 46:10

And God does things in His own time.

History mirrors the creation week, and we are about
to end the six thousandth year and enter the Sabbath
rest. Just a small thing like the tribulation to go, and it
could already be started.
Psalms 90:4
2 Peter 3:8

I don't see how relativity gets in the ways of this, after all the heavens and the earth were created in 6 days which could be appear to be a longer period of time from within that system. The mirror 6 thousand years you refer to is not the same as 6 terrestrial days either. Perhaps this is why the meaning of the word "yom" is so very broad, to allow for the observation of an old universe.

Finally, do you think God could keep us safe for millions of
years, and let us destroy ourselves in a few thousand?
Without a handful of miracles, I don't see us living another
hundred years, and maybe not fifty. Between poison, pollution,
radiation, vaccines and GMO's, it's a race to see which will kill
us first or sterilize us to die off.

I think that the beginning of terrestrial time perception begins at the point where humanity can observe time ie when we were created. As in quantum it is the observer that determines the state of things.

 

[mmksparbud]

So either Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 or God really had forsaken him...which is it?

He was referencing Psalm 22--He was much too weak to state the whole thing. But there is also hope in that Psalm.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.

When Christ was on the cross--He bore the sins of all. He became sin,
Hab 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

When Christ became sin, the sin came between Jesus and God. That is what sin does, it separates us from God. God was blocked, and Jesus felt that estrangement and He cried out. He had to rely on faith alone.

 

[Anguspure]

So either Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 or God really had forsaken him...which is it?

A common Rabbinical way to refer to a Psalm was to simply quote the first sentence then everybody that was listening would remember the rest of it, in much the same way that we can remind people about a popular song by singing only one line of the song.
It would seem that Jesus is here pointing to the fulfillment of one of many prophecies made about Him by quoting this Psalm.

As for whether He truly beleived that His Father had forsaken Him, this is from Psalm 22:

But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me....
You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel! For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.....
They will proclaim his righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: It is Finished! (Which just to underline teh point is the last thing He said)

 

[Anguspure]

You do understand that God is not a "person", right? God is a non-corporeal being. So, your hypothesis and supporting statements fall flat.

Clearly your definition of personhood is very narrow. God is the proto-person, we are created in His image. I mean person in the sense of being a willful mind capable of acting on that will.

 

[Anguspure]

Finally, do you think God could keep us safe for millions of
years, and let us destroy ourselves in a few thousand?
Without a handful of miracles, I don't see us living another
hundred years, and maybe not fifty. Between poison, pollution,
radiation, vaccines and GMO's, it's a race to see which will kill
us first or sterilize us to die off.

Just another thought because this reminds me of an objection that the late Christopher Hitchens raised, that of the problem of thousands or perhaps millions of years of pain and suffering before God decides to save the world.

It occurs to me that from Gods perspective the accumulated time over which people have existed is of little consequence. That time really only matters in terms of a life lived and a life saved.
When Christ died, he died for the sin of all people who would recognise Him. This salvation was extended not only to people who lived after His ressurection but also to those who looked forward to His coming in the past.
Thus the only time the matters to God and to all of us (throughout history) is the time in our lives that we had to reconcile with our creator and live, irrespective of whether our time was a million years ago or tomorrow.
So perhaps the creator only sees (in respect of humanity) only one time and that is a lifetime during which he holds out His hand of reconciliation.
I'm not sure if this will make it any clearer, but to the creator it probably looks more like individual lifetimes stacked side by side rather than some linear sequence of events.