What's on your mind?

[leothelioness]

Well, see, to me that's part of the problem right there for a lot of Christians' fear for their salvation status, whether that fear is momentary or continial: hell, the most commonly held view of it as a place of some kind of consciousness damnation, either constant torment by physical fire or the mental torment of knowing you messed up and can no longer be in God's good presence ever again. There are some like me, conditionalists and universalists, who no longer adhere to that view of hell because we found a Biblical argument that says otherwise. That took a lot of my fear away - a fear that I KNOW was not a holy fear of God, but the WRONG kind of fear that does NOT come from The Comforter - and despite my flaws I truly believe I am closer to Him and serve Him better than ever before after letting go of the eternal torment view of hell.

To offer a counter argument, if hell is not eternal, then what would be the point of Christ's sacrifice? Why would He die to save us from a place that is only temporary?

If hell is not an eternal place, how long does one's punishment last? Is it like purgatory where you're only there for a short time until you are cleansed and then you enter heaven? Or does one's soul just simply cease to exist after a set time? How can an eternal soul live in a finite place?

Out of curiosity what is the scripture that you believe disproves the idea of eternal torment and how do you reconcile that with Christ's depictions of hell?

 

[leothelioness]

Y'all think paranoid schizophrenia makes some scripture not quite be the case with me?

For example, 1 John 4:18.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Being paranoid schizophrenic, I obsess over hell a lot and my salvation status. It's been on my mind constantly for years, daily, multiple times a day. It's a part of the illness they say.
Don't get me wrong, there's a sense of me that has peace, a part of me that says "you're fine" but it's only a part, and there are many time where my fears and anxieties and negative thoughts overpower such peace.

But, reading scripture like this makes me doubt my salvation at times, because all I do sometimes is fear. Anyone have any insight on this or thoughts? There's other things too, like being emotionless at times, and not being able to socialize properly which prevents me loving others at times.

I was reading a devotional today and it made me think of your post. It was about salvation and the central scripture was John 6:37, "The one who comes to me I will by no means cast out."

It concluded with this statement:"Are you ever troubled that your salvation is perhaps still in doubt, eligible for recall if you don’t toe a certain line or achieve a base level of righteousness? Take heart in the promise that coming to Christ equates to never being “cast out.”'

Hope this helps and gives your heart comfort.

 

[Goodbook]

Perfect love casts out fear

One thing new christians need to learn is casting out demons, name the demon and tell it to go. I literally had to do this..with the help of a minister.
If you have fear, or any type of fear based demon, (mine went by the name of terror) take authority and tell it to get lost in Jesus name.

It works, honest to God.

 

[mojoboy31]

Maybe he's compensating for something.

Only because I can.


(hides hands) my hands are not small.

I see we decided to be twelve years old.

To offer a counter argument, if hell is not eternal, then what would be the point of Christ's sacrifice? Why would He die to save us from a place that is only temporary?

If hell is not an eternal place, how long does one's punishment last? Is it like purgatory where you're only there for a short time until you are cleansed and then you enter heaven? Or does one's soul just simply cease to exist after a set time? How can an eternal soul live in a finite place?

Out of curiosity what is the scripture that you believe disproves the idea of eternal torment and how do you reconcile that with Christ's depictions of hell?

Good points. The bible calls it 'the second death'. That sounds pretty final. The only counter I have is that it will be just that, the second death. Whereas eternal torment in the lake of fire would be reserved to those specifically listed with the devil, the false prophet, and the beast as they're specifically mentioned as being thrown on the lake.

Also, the bible describes a new sky a new earth, but only mentions the city of New Jerusalem with its pearly gates, and that Christ will dwell there with all whose names are written in the book of life. Outside of that, we have no idea what else this new earth will entail. Case could be made that some will be thrown into the lake for eternal torment, some would be destroyed completely, and some living in this world, but not allowed in the city.

 

[SarahsKnight]

To offer a counter argument, if hell is not eternal, then what would be the point of Christ's sacrifice?

No problem. If Christ's death on the cross is anything to indicate what those who do not accept it shall suffer, then conditional immortality's view of hell makes all the more sense. Christ suffered a finite time and then died. He did not suffer infinitely, otherwise it only makes sense He Himself would be in hell right now still suffering the punishment in our place. Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is "death", not "eternal conscious torment" or "spiritual death". We will die here on Earth, no doubt, but the second death we shall not be hurt of if we believe. Only in Christ can we have immortality, and it is indicated to be a gift to us via verses such as Romans 2:7 - there is nothing in the Bible that says we already have it in our souls such that death is only a conscious separation from God in which we still live forever in hell, just apart from God. Also, there is 1 Timothy 6:16, that says God alone hath immortality (or hath alone immortality? I think it has been translated as both), and so in any context, if man has anything about him that is inherently immortal, then this verse makes no sense to me. Also, Christ's descriptions of Gehenna still say nothing of the people who will go there, whether they will last forever in that "eternal fire" or not. He just ascribes the word "eternal" to the fire, not the person, so unless these verses in the gospels about Gehenna were the only verses that ever spoke of the fate of those who will not believe, there is no good reason for me to believe this means man will also be eternal in that fire. If he did last forever in it, instead of being destroyed by it, then we wouldn't have a number of verses everywhere throughout the Bible that say these very things will happen to the unbeliever himself - destroyed, perish, be no more, wither away, and so on. And, I have heard it said by many that "eternal punishment" as mentioned by Christ in the gospels has to be eternal conscious torment because it is no punishment at all if you just die and wither away as ash or something. But, contrary to what said people's personal view of God's justice should be, a death in which you can never return, where there is no hope of resurrection unto life again like we believers now have through Christ, is in fact a punishment and it is eternally lasting (if the term "eternal" in Matthew 25:46 is in fact referring to the length that it will last, rather than eternal as in the quality of the One who initiates that punishment). Death was the very punishment God said would occur as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge in the very beginning of the Bible, in fact. He said "in the day you eat of it, you will die", not "in the day you eat of it, you will surely one day go to live forever in a place of perpetual torment, apart from me".

You ask what the point is of Christ's sacrifice if hell is not eternal conscious torment rather than a possible conscious punishment for a time and then annihilation/death, my dear Lioness, but to me the latter view matches what happened to Him on the cross a lot more closely, and I still honor Him for it. Let's say that universal reconciliation is the true view of hell, where God will eventually reconcile all to Him no matter what, and thus you chose to abandon your faith entirely and deny Christ (if that's even possible for a believer; I personally believe in the OSAS view, myself), because as a universalist you knew that your punishment in hell would last only for, say, as little as the number of years you lived on Earth (or substitute any amount of time that is not infinite, really), before you were reconciled to God by His ultimate will for you and all other humans who ever lived. Would you choose to become an unbeliever and live a life here for evil instead, knowing that, Lioness? Would the temporary, correctional punishment in hell be worth going through for you? ... I think your answer would be no; that you would still believe here and now on Earth, and be grateful for Christ's sacrifice saving you from even that temporary unpleasant fate. To me, fear of what will happen to us otherwise as a natural consequence should not be our motivation for believing and following Jesus Christ now.

Forgive me, Lioness. To me it seems my arguments for conditional immortality and rejecting eternal torment are often not very well written and I don't even get close to covering all I wanted to say, for some reason. But I should leave it at this for now despite this being the thread for random topics, out of respect for the others who may not want to hear about all this kind of stuff. I only meant to help Codyfaith possibly feel better about his questions before.

(But if you wish, Lioness, I would welcome speaking with you more through pm.)

 

[Goodbook]

Am pondering what an eatery is and if its a brand new word or not.
Restaurants never used to be called eateries.

Am thinking where are the drinkeries and can I be different and open up a chewery.

Alas that is what is OMM and sorry this won't help anyone find eternal salvation.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Also, I really despise cockroaches. They make me sick at the sight of them, so you can imagine how close my bile came up to leaving my throat last night where I find not one but two dead roaches together in the same room. And in Texas, ... they are huge. I dislike even breathing the same air as a roach, dead or alive.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

Also, I really cockroaches.

I think you missed a word. I think I understood what you meant, but that was confusing.

 

[SarahsKnight]

I think you missed a word. I think I understood what you meant, but that was confusing.

Oh yeah, I meant to put the word "despise" in there, all right.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

Oh yeah, I meant to put the word "despise" in there, all right.

Ok. That makes sense now. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[mojoboy31]

No problem. If Christ's death on the cross is anything to indicate what those who do not accept it shall suffer, then conditional immortality's view of hell makes all the more sense. Christ suffered a finite time and then died. He did not suffer infinitely, otherwise it only makes sense He Himself would be in hell right now still suffering the punishment in our place. Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is "death", not "eternal conscious torment" or "spiritual death". We will die here on Earth, no doubt, but the second death we shall not be hurt of if we believe. Only in Christ can we have immortality, and it is indicated to be a gift to us via verses such as Romans 2:7 - there is nothing in the Bible that says we already have it in our souls such that death is only a conscious separation from God in which we still live forever in hell, just apart from God. Also, there is 1 Timothy 6:16, that says God alone hath immortality (or hath alone immortality? I think it has been translated as both), and so in any context, if man has anything about him that is inherently immortal, then this verse makes no sense to me. Also, Christ's descriptions of Gehenna still say nothing of the people who will go there, whether they will last forever in that "eternal fire" or not. He just ascribes the word "eternal" to the fire, not the person, so unless these verses in the gospels about Gehenna were the only verses that ever spoke of the fate of those who will not believe, there is no good reason for me to believe this means man will also be eternal in that fire. If he did last forever in it, instead of being destroyed by it, then we wouldn't have a number of verses everywhere throughout the Bible that say these very things will happen to the unbeliever himself - destroyed, perish, be no more, wither away, and so on. And, I have heard it said by many that "eternal punishment" as mentioned by Christ in the gospels has to be eternal conscious torment because it is no punishment at all if you just die and wither away as ash or something. But, contrary to what said people's personal view of God's justice should be, a death in which you can never return, where there is no hope of resurrection unto life again like we believers now have through Christ, is in fact a punishment and it is eternally lasting (if the term "eternal" in Matthew 25:46 is in fact referring to the length that it will last, rather than eternal as in the quality of the One who initiates that punishment). Death was the very punishment God said would occur as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge in the very beginning of the Bible, in fact. He said "in the day you eat of it, you will die", not "in the day you eat of it, you will surely one day go to live forever in a place of perpetual torment, apart from me".

You ask what the point is of Christ's sacrifice if hell is not eternal conscious torment rather than a possible conscious punishment for a time and then annihilation/death, my dear Lioness, but to me the latter view matches what happened to Him on the cross a lot more closely, and I still honor Him for it. Let's say that universal reconciliation is the true view of hell, where God will eventually reconcile all to Him no matter what, and thus you chose to abandon your faith entirely and deny Christ (if that's even possible for a believer; I personally believe in the OSAS view, myself), because as a universalist you knew that your punishment in hell would last only for, say, as little as the number of years you lived on Earth (or substitute any amount of time that is not infinite, really), before you were reconciled to God by His ultimate will for you and all other humans who ever lived. Would you choose to become an unbeliever and live a life here for evil instead, knowing that, Lioness? Would the temporary, correctional punishment in hell be worth going through for you? ... I think your answer would be no; that you would still believe here and now on Earth, and be grateful for Christ's sacrifice saving you from even that temporary unpleasant fate. To me, fear of what will happen to us otherwise as a natural consequence should not be our motivation for believing and following Jesus Christ now.

Forgive me, Lioness. To me it seems my arguments for conditional immortality and rejecting eternal torment are often not very well written and I don't even get close to covering all I wanted to say, for some reason. But I should leave it at this for now despite this being the thread for random topics, out of respect for the others who may not want to hear about all this kind of stuff. I only meant to help Codyfaith possibly feel better about his questions before.

(But if you wish, Lioness, I would welcome speaking with you more through pm.)

John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only son." Not to spare us some pain before we'd eventually be reconciled to Him anyway- but so that whoever believed would not die, but inherit eternal life.

The cross, the crucifixion- it's an anti-type of the OT Law in which blood sacrifice was required to forgive sin. Once a year, they would ritually pass the sins of the world onto an animal, and sacrifice it.

Typology is kinda hard to explain. Think of it like the promise and the fulfillment, what came before, what came after.

So before, they had this ritual, then God sent His son, a sinless lamb, to take on the sins of the world, past, present, future, and cleanse them through His blood.

Anyone remember the plagues in Egypt? The last one, death of the first born? How God told His people to sprinkle blood on their doorways. "When I see the blood, I will passover you." They called it 'the passover'. It's purely coincidental of course that Christ was crucified while the Jews were celebrating the passover.

We call on God's mercy in the way He instructed us- the same way the Jews did during The Passover. Those who don't, suffer the penalty, the same way the Egyptians did.

 

[SarahsKnight]

John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only son." Not to spare us some pain before we'd eventually be reconciled to Him anyway- but so that whoever believed would not die, but inherit eternal life.

I agree. I was just using universalism there for the sake of argument.

 

[Travelers.Soul]

OMM: My cousins are coming in tonight and my back is acting up. BUT God is good, it's not very bad. I'm going to see my cousins, and it's a beautiful morning.

I hope y'all have a wonderful day!

 

[Swan7]

I have to agree with @leothelioness concerning hell. Hell is not what we would think (being born of sin into the way of the world that we don't try to become), I think we have to let God do the teaching rather than the world's teaching of such words. Hell is an eternal separation from God.
Luke 16:19-31 (See spoiler)

Spoiler: The Rich Man and Lazarus

“There was a rich man who would dress in purple and fine linen,ad feasting lavishly every day. 20 But a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, was left at his gate. 21 He longed to be filled with what fell from the rich man’s table, but instead the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23And being in torment in •Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off, with Lazarus at his side. 24‘Father Abraham! ’am he called out, ‘Have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame! ’

25“ ‘Son', Abraham said, ‘remember that during your life you received your good things, just as Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to pass over from here to you cannot; neither can those from there cross over to us.’

27“ ‘Father,’ he said, ‘then I beg you to send him to my father’s house — 28 because I have five brothers — to warn them, so they won’t also come to this place of torment.’

29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets;as they should listen to them.’

30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said. ‘But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31“But he told him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

I also agree with what @mojoboy31 said about the second death.
Revelation 21:8
Like what was explained in the Rich Man and Lazarus, those who do not listen and do not repent from their ways will go there. God doesn't want that, but if those who desire themselves (their ways) rather than God (His ways), then eternal punishment is what they will reap. This is because of the free will God has given us. He wants us to desire Him.

 

[Swan7]

OMM: My cousins are coming in tonight and my back is acting up. BUT God is good, it's not very bad. I'm going to see my cousins, and it's a beautiful morning.

I hope y'all have a wonderful day!

Please get better and RELAX!! When I get too excited, I notice I get a migraine haha!

 

[Swan7]

Anyone remember the plagues in Egypt? The last one, death of the first born? How God told His people to sprinkle blood on their doorways. "When I see the blood, I will passover you." They called it 'the passover'. It's purely coincidental of course that Christ was crucified while the Jews were celebrating the passover.

I found that to be quite ironic, actually. Though it was coincidental. <-- unsure of how to emotionally respond to such a thing.

 

[alsughasoughaiuyfygh]

On My Mind: In 15 hours Obama will hand over control of the internet to the United Nations. There are fears brewing that this may be the end to freedom of speech on the internet. The internet will no longer be under the American constitution guaranteeing freedom of speech, freedom of press and freedom of assembly but instead under the control of the United Nations and a global constitution.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/an-internet-giveaway-to-the-u-n-1472421165
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...of-internet-administrator-icann-a6829466.html
http://phys.org/news/2016-09-internet.html

Some are predicting that heavy censorship and regulations are coming. If this is actually true and forums like this one get shut down, I'd just like to say that I love you guys and I wish I could have been part of this community for a much longer time.

This may simply be more right wing paranoia but the Bible Prophecy student in me is seeing this as another means for the Antichrist to gain control over the planet.

That is all.

 

[Swan7]

If Christ's death on the cross is anything to indicate what those who do not accept it shall suffer, then conditional immortality's view of hell makes all the more sense. Christ suffered a finite time and then died. He did not suffer infinitely, otherwise it only makes sense He Himself would be in hell right now still suffering the punishment in our place.

I’m not sure if you noticed, but how I read this part was that Jesus is placed at our level and can’t defeat death. I, myself, cannot imagine carrying the weight of sin of the world and then having Father turn away because the sin was so great and die like that… I can’t fathom that. Jesus, being the Son of God, defeated death by rising from the dead. The bible does not say where He was during those 3 days before being risen, so I do not want to make any theologies on that.

I do agree with you on the Romans 6:23 though.

Also, there is 1 Timothy 6:16, that says God alone hath immortality (or hath alone immortality? I think it has been translated as both), and so in any context, if man has anything about him that is inherently immortal, then this verse makes no sense to me.

I think you might be getting life and death mixed up as living in both cases, when it’s not. I think what God is showing us is that those who do not believe in Him are already dead in His eyes, unless there’s repentance and believing in Him: Ezekiel 37:1-14
Quite the revival!

Those who suffer eternal punishment are not living in God’s eyes, but are dead and eternally dead since the second death is final. Another way of looking at it is it’s the separation from wheat from the chafe at the harvest.

I hope this all makes some sense. I am sick with a cold and my thinking isn't the best right now, so please forgive me.

 

[Swan7]

On My Mind: In 15 hours Obama will hand over control of the internet to the United Nations. There are fears brewing that this may be the end to freedom of speech on the internet. The internet will no longer be under the American constitution guaranteeing freedom of speech, freedom of press and freedom of assembly but instead under the control of the United Nations and a global constitution.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/an-internet-giveaway-to-the-u-n-1472421165
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...of-internet-administrator-icann-a6829466.html
http://phys.org/news/2016-09-internet.html

Some are predicting that heavy censorship and regulations are coming. If this is actually true and forums like this one get shut down, I'd just like to say that I love you guys and I wish I could have been part of this community for a much longer time.

This may simply be more right wing paranoia but the Bible Prophecy student in me is seeing this as another means for the Antichrist to gain control over the planet.

That is all.

Even if that does happen, God is still in control They can try to gain control by oppressing us, but the fact (of belief) is this could also be propaganda, which I am inclined to believe after all the of Y2K, Mayan Calendar, comet... ect. It'll just be another day, another time. Don't sweat over it

 

[alsughasoughaiuyfygh]

Even if that does happen, God is still in control They can try to gain control by oppressing us, but the fact (of belief) is this could also be propaganda, which I am inclined to believe after all the of Y2K, Mayan Calendar, comet... ect. It'll just be another day, another time. Don't sweat over it

Yeah, the boy cried wolf too many times but my fear is that the wolf will actually arrive and the sheep will be eaten before the villagers knew what hit them. With all this absurd political correctness and the UN Security Council having dictatorships in their ranks, I can see this situation being plausible.

I guess we're going to have to wait and see.