How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[MennoSota]

The person at the point of surrendering is not righteous, God is still his enemy.
You are right to realize the nonbeliever does not really want to surrender, but like the prodigal son his actions have brought him to the pigsty of life and brought him to his senses so he can see where he is headed and does not want to go there so selfishly choses to surrender.

This is not necessarily true. I have met people who were, by their own admission, enjoying their life of sin and having no regrets. By no concerted effort did their heart bring repentance. God stirred them and made them alive (Ephesians 2:4).

 

[MennoSota]

Do you not see that God determines how to deal with man as man chooses his ways and deeds?

There was grace in the OT.

No, I am not stating keeping the law is necessary for life; JESUS SAID IT!

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Do you want to enter life? If so, Jesus and His words are the only way. Arguing with me won't changes Jesus' words or His mind.

You do not preach grace, Ew. You preach works salvation.
You do not grasp what grace is. Your definition is not God's definition as stated in the Bible.
You have taken the word and created a bastardization of the definition. Others, like Pelagius have done the same.

 

[MennoSota]

The person at the point of surrendering is not righteous, God is still his enemy.
You are right to realize the nonbeliever does not really want to surrender, but like the prodigal son his actions have brought him to the pigsty of life and brought him to his senses so he can see where he is headed and does not want to go there so selfishly choses to surrender.

No rebel ever surrenders. They must be captured, put on trial and sentenced. That sentence is hell...unless the judge chooses to pardon the rebel. God does that choosing. People do not "switch sides" as though it were a kids game in the backyard. No, this is real warfare and rebellion against God, the Creator. Judgment will fall and it either falls on me or on Yeshua, my redeemer.

Humans are not prodigal sons. They are rebels and bandits from outside the family. Only God can adopt us. It is after adoption where we can go astray and God waits for our return. This is not the case for someone who is not a family member.

 

[bottomofsandal]

The Bible defines just and unjust which includes how Jesus treated everyone.

God obligates Himself to save those He said he would save, by saying: He will not lie (intentionally mislead us).

It would not be “just” for a rescuer to just save a few people from a burning building if the rescuer knew and could just as easily and safely saved everyone in the building. He could be justly prosecuted for knowingly not saving them.

The God of the Bible is not that callous or unconcerned with man that He would arbitrarily choose to just save a few, so what condition of man makes God’s choice of a man not arbitrary?

God does not take pleaser in allowing or sending people to hell, so why do some go and others not go?

I understand your model, but why then does God not save everyone?

There must be a valid reason as to why God chose to not save everybody.

Not why men did not freely choose God when they could have-

but, why did God allow bad choices that would eternally condemn the man?


Either scenario Heaven is not full and the outcome is the same.

So, did God's will occur or did man manifest his freewill choices?

 

[EmSw]

You do not preach grace, Ew. You preach works salvation.
You do not grasp what grace is. Your definition is not God's definition as stated in the Bible.
You have taken the word and created a bastardization of the definition. Others, like Pelagius have done the same.

Menno, does the word of God offend you? Why do you not want to believe it? Do you not see what sin does to people, even God's chosen?

Since you know so much about grace, tell us what grace teaches each and every one of us.

 

[MennoSota]

Menno, does the word of God offend you? Why do you not want to believe it? Do you not see what sin does to people, even God's chosen?

Since you know so much about grace, tell us what grace teaches each and every one of us.

This is funny since it is you who claimed that God took himself out of context just so you could avoid what the Bible teaches. You bore me with your jesters games.

 

[EmSw]

I understand your model, but why then does God not save everyone?

There must be a valid reason as to why God chose to not save everybody.

Not why men did not freely choose God when they could have-

Why do men not obey God's will? Is God powerless to have men obey Him?

 

[EmSw]

This is funny since it is you who claimed that God took himself out of context just so you could avoid what the Bible teaches. You bore me with your jesters games.

You are playing the 'Calvinist' modus operandi perfectly. Congratulations on your achievement.

If you can't refute God's plain teaching, go after the person.

And you didn't answer my question - what does God's grace teach us?

 

[MennoSota]

You are playing the 'Calvinist' modus operandi perfectly. Congratulations on your achievement.

If you can't refute God's plain teaching, go after the person.

And you didn't answer my question - what does God's grace teach us?

[emoji99] [emoji99] [emoji99]

I would express the modus operandi you display, but the mods would tell me I can't call you what you clearly display with every post. I will simply label you a Pelagian.

 

[EmSw]

[emoji99] [emoji99] [emoji99]

I would express the modus operandi you display, but the mods would tell me I can't call you what you clearly display with every post. I will simply label you a Pelagian.

What does God's grace teach us?

 

[MennoSota]

What does God's grace teach us?

You have no understanding of the word. Read Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 to find out.

 

[Marvin Knox]

But Marvin, there were no free choices yet made when God predestined men to eternal life and foreordained them to eternal damnation. God doesn't pre-determine how He deals with man.

Of course there were no free choices made by people. There were not people to make the choices.

There were by God of course - because He's always been there.

God did predetermine how He would deal with man. You spelled out an example pretty well there in that scripture. There are dozen's of other scriptures which detail exactly how He will deal with men and nations.

I actually had a very long post going and deleted it.

It seems to me that you need to agree right now that Calvinists do not equate predestination with what we would call "scripting".

They are very clear that predestination in no way eliminates the free choices of men.

You on board with what they believe? You aren't going to claim again that they believe in scripting the choices that men make are you?

Because if you so misrepresent them again we'll have to end this for good.

Do you agree that Calvinists do not mean "scripting the choices of men" when they speak of those choices being predestined to occur?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I understand your model, but why then does God not save everyone?
There must be a valid reason as to why God chose to not save everybody.
Not why men did not freely choose God when they could have-
but, why did God allow bad choices that would eternally condemn the man?...
...
So, did God's will occur or did man manifest his freewill choices?

Working the questions/observations/ from last to first:
Everything YHWH Planned , is Perfectly Accomplished.

YHWH allowed free will - good and bad choices - because HE CHOSE TO. HIS GOOD PLEASURE TO.

IF YHWH CHOSE to save anyone who rejects HIM, HE would violate HIS OWN ABSOLUTELY PERFECT CHARACTER, ABSOLUTELY PERFECT JUSTICE and PERFECT JUDGEMENT, PERFECT WISDOM and PERFECT KNOWLEDGE, and HIS PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS

and ruin the value of our free will and the UNBELIEVABLY GREAT EXTRAVAGANT (IMMEASURABLE IN BEAUTY POWER WONDER LIFE SPIRIT AWESOMENESS) GIFT OF LIFE IN Y'SHUA- THE GIFT OF UNION WITH HIMSELF AND Y'SHUA FOREVER FOR ETERNITY AS ONE WITH THE FATHER AND THE SON AS THEY ARE ONE @@@@@@@@@@@ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF you understand the model you refer to (I didn't see it) and it doesn't explain why
YHWH does not save everyone then either the model or your understanding of the model misses the mark.

 

[sdowney717]

Working the questions/observations/ from last to first:
Everything YHWH Planned , is Perfectly Accomplished.

YHWH allowed free will - good and bad choices - because HE CHOSE TO. HIS GOOD PLEASURE TO.

IF YHWH CHOSE to save anyone who rejects HIM, HE would violate HIS OWN ABSOLUTELY PERFECT CHARACTER, ABSOLUTELY PERFECT JUSTICE and PERFECT JUDGEMENT, PERFECT WISDOM and PERFECT KNOWLEDGE, and HIS PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS

and ruin the value of our free will and the UNBELIEVABLY GREAT EXTRAVAGANT (IMMEASURABLE IN BEAUTY POWER WONDER LIFE SPIRIT AWESOMENESS) GIFT OF LIFE IN Y'SHUA- THE GIFT OF UNION WITH HIMSELF AND Y'SHUA FOREVER FOR ETERNITY AS ONE WITH THE FATHER AND THE SON AS THEY ARE ONE @@@@@@@@@@@ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF you understand the model you refer to (I didn't see it) and it doesn't explain why
YHWH does not save everyone then either the model or your understanding of the model misses the mark.

Eventually all those God predestined will trust Christ.

When reading Ephesians 1, Paul makes mention of His predestination of us according to His will to be redeemed, adopted, saved, being chosen in Christ before the earth was made.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Then Paul says in v13
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So all those God predestined, will all entrust themselves to Jesus Christ at a time of His choosing in their life on this earth.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Working the questions/observations/ from last to first:
Everything YHWH Planned , is Perfectly Accomplished.

YHWH allowed free will - good and bad choices - because HE CHOSE TO. HIS GOOD PLEASURE TO.

IF YHWH CHOSE to save anyone who rejects HIM, HE would violate HIS OWN ABSOLUTELY PERFECT CHARACTER, ABSOLUTELY PERFECT JUSTICE and PERFECT JUDGEMENT, PERFECT WISDOM and PERFECT KNOWLEDGE, and HIS PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS

and ruin the value of our free will and the UNBELIEVABLY GREAT EXTRAVAGANT (IMMEASURABLE IN BEAUTY POWER WONDER LIFE SPIRIT AWESOMENESS) GIFT OF LIFE IN Y'SHUA- THE GIFT OF UNION WITH HIMSELF AND Y'SHUA FOREVER FOR ETERNITY AS ONE WITH THE FATHER AND THE SON AS THEY ARE ONE @@@@@@@@@@@ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF you understand the model you refer to (I didn't see it) and it doesn't explain why
YHWH does not save everyone then either the model or your understanding of the model misses the mark.

I understood his pov, but as you say "it misses the mark".


It is beneficial to have certainty, and to know everything is under the control of Almighty God.

Many passages in Isaiah remind us of God's announcements, decrees, and ordaining of what is to come.

God says that He deliberately tells us in advance what will happen, so that when it does happen he gets the glory.

God tell us both the beginning and the end! This is remarkable to a man, yet it is nothing for God.


Jesus always pleased The Father. God always does what pleases Himself.
Perhaps this is simply too much for us to comprehend. Or is it?

Grace belongs to God, it is God's grace. He can use grace however He pleases.

 

[EmSw]

You have no understanding of the word. Read Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 to find out.

What does Grace teach us?

 

[MennoSota]

What does Grace teach us?

That what you teach is not grace.

 

[EmSw]

That what you teach is not grace.

What does God's grace teach us? I thought you were an expert on grace.

 

[MennoSota]

What does God's grace teach us? I thought you were an expert on grace.

Where do I claim to be the expert?

You're being silly at this point. I will continue to point you toward Romans and Ephesians until you actually read these passages and admit to then being the word of God.

I now understand what another poster said about your actions.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Of course there were no free choices made by people. There were not people to make the choices.

There were by God of course - because He's always been there.

God did predetermine how He would deal with man. You spelled out an example pretty well there in that scripture. There are dozen's of other scriptures which detail exactly how He will deal with men and nations.

I actually had a very long post going and deleted it.

It seems to me that you need to agree right now that Calvinists do not equate predestination with what we would call "scripting".

They are very clear that predestination in no way eliminates the free choices of men.

You on board with what they believe? You aren't going to claim again that they believe in scripting the choices that men make are you?

Because if you so misrepresent them again we'll have to end this for good.

Do you agree that Calvinists do not mean "scripting the choices of men" when they speak of those choices being predestined to occur?

Marvin,

You know that I do not agree with your theology, but I do so respect you in that you state what you believe and why.

You take so much heat for the Calvinist view because the view is not represented properly or openly by so many who believe it. I hope that you are feeling better.