How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[EmSw]

It really doesn't matter here. "WHAT?"
No.

Does it bother you that this country may have a contract on your life ?

Does it bother you to not understand why you or others have to experience pain for years sometimes ?

Is this a conspiracy thread now?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is this a conspiracy thread now?

Are you afraid of conspiracy ?

Are you afraid of what Y'SHUA said/says ?

Are you deceived by those others who talk about conspiracy ?

 

[EmSw]

Do you realize you're talking about most people on earth, everywhere, here ?

Very few if any that you know know how to stop sinning,

and most people here and everywhere say it is no problem when they willingly keep sinning.

It doesn't matter what religion they hold to , or what they are "labelled" as .

If God says not to murder, yes sir, I can stop it from happening and not submit to sin. Is murder a problem for you? Can you not stop it?

 

[EmSw]

Are you afraid of conspiracy ?

Are you afraid of what Y'SHUA said/says ?

Are you deceived by those others who talk about conspiracy ?

Find the appropriate thread and talk your head off.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Everything here is straight from the BIBLE. Read it through and through.

" Do you realize you're talking about most people on earth, everywhere, here ?

Very few if any that you know know how to stop sinning,

and most people here and everywhere say it is no problem when they willingly keep sinning.

It doesn't matter what religion they hold to , or what they are "labelled" as . "

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If God says not to murder, yes sir, I can stop it from happening and not submit to sin. Is murder a problem for you? Can you not stop it?

You cannot stop it from happening.
You might be able to stop murdering people yourself, but you won't stop murder from happening.

I'm already dead to the world, and the world is dead to me. Why should murder be a problem to anyone ? It seems to be a problem for you, why? Is it ?

 

[EmSw]

You cannot stop it from happening.
You might be able to stop murdering people yourself, but you won't stop murder from happening.

I'm already dead to the world, and the world is dead to me. Why should murder be a problem to anyone ? It seems to be a problem for you, why? Is it ?

I can't stop it from happening? Say what? What other people do does not affect me. I am responsible for my own actions. You seem to be on a wheel of confusion. Step off a minute and realize what's being said.

 

[MennoSota]

Jeremiah 13
22 And if you say in your heart, “Why have these things come upon me?” For the greatness of your iniquity your skirts have been uncovered, your heels made bare.

Here again, we see Paul taking the potter passages out of context. But that doesn't bother you, does it?

Jeremiah 18
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!
7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,
8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.
9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,
10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.”

First of all, this is written to God's chosen people, the house of Israel.
Second, it does say the potter can do what he desires. However, if a nation and kingdom is said to be plucked up and destroyed, BUT IT TURNS FROM ITS EVIL, God will relent of the disaster.

Third, if God desires to build and plant a nation and kingdom, BUT IT DIES EVIL IN HIS SIGHT AND DOES NOT OBEY HIS VOICE, God will relent concerning the good which He said would benefit it.

Again, we see it depends entirely upon man as to whether God will destroy him or benefit him. If the inhabitants of Jerusalem did not return from their evil way and make their doings good, God will not relent of the disaster He devised against them.

Context, my friend, context.

You are saying that God is contradicting God and taking Himself out of context.

Your statement is entirely wrong and not biblical.

I have been warned not to say heretical though, you have blatantly called God wrong. What word should I use when you reject God's word and say that God took himself out of context?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Is is possible that God is using means through me to teach you about brotherly love?

Yes.
Patience for absolute sure.

Marvin, you know I don't get my doctrine from the WCF. This is where you get yours. I do not believe what they wrote. Just because some men got together to write their views on God, does not make it truth.

I don't get my doctrine from the WCF either. Where did you get the idea that I did?

Of course it doesn't make it so and of course you are free to agree or disagree with them on some points and I am free to do the same (as I do).

But since you have taken it upon yourself to be a critic of so called Calvinism and since the WCF is almost almost universally seen by Calvinists to be in line with their doctrine - it stands to reason that the WCF could and should be cited frequently as a matter of discussion concerning what Calvinists believe.

Since you keep misrepresenting what they believe, it only stands to reason that I would present it again as proof that you are doing so. I have done and will continue to do exactly that.

And yet you continue to misstate Calvinist beliefs. Somewhere along the line after a year or so one has to wonder if you are a liar or just not very sharp. No offense meant - that's just logical truth.

One of the most offensive statements is that God has predestined some men to eternal life, and foreordained some to eternal damnation. Don't you understand that is very offensive to millions of people?

Yes I do understand that the misrepresented way that you present what Calvinists believe is highly offensive to many. It would be to me also if it were an accurate statement of what they believe.

But (for at least 20 or 30 times now) the Reformed doctrine of predestination includes the ability of men to make choices and the fact that they will make those choices and the fact that they will be judged fairly because of them.

If you are talking about unconditional election on the other hand - that doctrine if "more than fair" simply because God owes nothing to people who have used their wills to sin against Him. If He chooses to extend extra grace to some to show His grace in the ages to come and chooses to pass others by and leave them to the consequences of their sins to show forth His righteous judgment and holiness in the ages to come - that does not change for one minute that all men are guilty of sins against God.

These things have been pointed out to you time and time again concerning how you are wrong about what Calvinists believe and teach.

So you are playing your part in bringing to pass the damnation of people, right? Who in their right mind wants to understand that?

In a way yes.

Men are condemned when they hear the gospel proclaimed and yet refuse the grace it offers.

I want to understand that and play my part. The main reason being that I want to obey the Lord and do my job.

Were you predestined to be a child of darkness. Were you predestined to be lost before salvation?

Yes - I was predestined to be so before salvation came to me and was accepted.

The Apostle Paul and I are alike in that respect.

And before you say something really foolish again - when I accepted Christ I did not change what was predestined for me. I was predestined to be both lost for a portion of my life and saved for a portion of my life.

That concept is so easy to understand that I just have to think that you zeal for making witty come backs and the like are what has caused you to say the really foolish things you have said on this front.

Jesus, perhaps John the Baptist, and perhaps infants who die prematurely are the only exceptions I can think of to the concept of a dual status being predestined for display in different parts of their lives..

Understanding Calvinism and predestination is not required by God for salvation. I want nothing from Calvinism. Why can't you understand that?

Of course understanding Calvinism isn't required by God for Salvation. Who ever said that it was? No one here I trust.

If you have no need for Calvinism and you want nothing from it - then why on earth are you one of the most frequent posters on the subject? In fact you have gone out of your way to start threads just to draw out conversation on the doctrines of grace.

Frankly - I don't care much at all if you become a Calvinist or not. What I continue to care about is that you not be misrepresent what Calvinists believe and then when you are corrected from an authority on Calvinism (the WCF) you then lie again and again by very "purposeful" misrepresentation.

Either that or you are simply the dullest tool in the shed and, after dealing with you for some time, I no longer believe that. That leads me to believe that you are lying. I have no other choice.

Besides, my wisdom comes from above, not from the WCF.

Wisdom from above would dictate that you would strive to understand the beliefs of others and make sure that you do not misrepresent them before you do a critique on them. Wisdom from above does not need to create straw men through misrepresentation.

My wisdom does not come from the WCF or any other man produced material.

I've been on this forum for years Marvin. I think I have seen the many facets of Reformed belief.

And yet you continue to misstate some of the most universally held doctrines of the Reformed belief.

You've really been doing this sort of thing for years?

That's a whole lot of things to answer for at the Judgment Seat of Christ - assuming you and I are both bound to appear there eventually.

Your friend Minno says he is a five-pointer, you say your are a four-pointer. Who is right Marvin? How does one understand your beliefs when you all can't make up your own minds on what to believe?

What's your point?

By the same measure you use - your non-Calvinist friends John Wesley and Joseph Smith both believe tremendously different than you do. You non-Calvinists "can't make up your own minds on what to believe".

If a person made it their goal in life to refute non-Calvinism (the reciprocal to your goal in life apparently) - that person would have to spend a dozen lifetimes on his given task.

Let's make this the last point by point marathon post. I just don't have the time for it.

Since you are the one with the beef against Reformed theology - just make a point or ask a question and then I'll respond to it.

OK?

P.S.
For what it's worth to you - if you start playing games here - we will end this. If you try hard to make it a legitimate give and take and play it straight - we may get somewhere.

First sign of silliness or repeating a charge against Calvinist which I have corrected you on and we'll pull the plug again.

We'll see how it goes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I can't stop it from happening? Say what? What other people do does not affect me. I am responsible for my own actions. You seem to be on a wheel of confusion. Step off a minute and realize what's being said.

If you don't read a post you're replying to, who is confused ?

You cannot stop it from happening.
You might be able to stop murdering people yourself, but you won't stop murder from happening.

You may or may not be responsible for your own actions.
Several of the readers and I noting the content of your posts have asked what's wrong ? - The content of the posts is not consistent with Scripture, nor even with what others post.
Are you still in so much pain it results in cloudy thinking ? We don't know - and there's nothing we can do about it, whatever it is, so far.

 

[OzSpen]

Do you have sympathy for the devil?

Are you showing compassion for the God-haters who reside in hell?

People send themselves to hell by committing sins against God.
His justice demands eternal punishment and eternal condemnation.
Will not The Judge of all the earth do right? (Genesis 18:25)

Are you questioning God's motives?
Are you saying God made a mistake?
What are you saying?...it's hard to follow since it does not align with The Word.

Genesis 18:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

You do not understand what I wrote.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But, salvation IS conditional.

To question the outcome, is to question all God's motives and attributes.

When a man chooses hell, that's on the man, not God.


No one here is depicting an unfair, unjust, and unloving God.

God's actions are simply being put forth as proof of His Divine Providential will.

Either what is happening is what God ultimately willed and knew about, or something is more powerful than God.


We can't have it both ways. Either God foreknew, willed, and controlled the outcome-

Or someone/something/some power is interfering with God's work on the earth.


Was it God's work to save all men on the earth?
If so, what prevented His will from completion?
Could God have save 100% of humanity? Yes!
Then why did God not insure this outcome?


...please don't say man's will and say-so is the impediment

So because God does not necessarily interfere, He willed it?

That's the logic and putting words in the Bible that are not there.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Sure God could have saved all men, but then heaven would be hell.

Why not say free-will? It's because it undermines your whole theology.

Only man can freely choose to live as he pleases or as God pleases. God tells us over and over again how to live in order to have life. Man would rather live as they please and still get to heaven the way they choose. They play God thinking it doesn't matter if sin continues in their lives. Not to worry, God is not mocked, nor is He deceived.

What's your point?

Our will is not free, we are sinners.

Jesus came to save sinners, not good men.


Men choose hell, so they go to hell.

God is not trying to populate hell.


The question asked should be thus-

Why does God create men knowing they will not choose Him?

 

[bottomofsandal]

So because God does not necessarily interfere, He willed it?

That's the logic and putting words in the Bible that are not there.

Please explain who is running the universe?

It's not logic...it is what is actually happening!

Whose will is it if not God's?


I am not arguing with you, just pointing out what happens in God's universe must be God's doing!
...if not God, then who or what?

 

[EmSw]

You are saying that God is contradicting God and taking Himself out of context.

Your statement is entirely wrong and not biblical.

I have been warned not to say heretical though, you have blatantly called God wrong. What word should I use when you reject God's word and say that God took himself out of context?

Paul is not God, though you would love it.

 

[MennoSota]

Paul is not God, though you would love it.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:16

God is the author of all scripture, including Roman and Ephesians.

You have directly claimed that God took himself out of context. That is a shameful thing that you have done and worthy of rebuke.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Please explain who is running the universe?

It's not logic...it is what is actually happening!

Whose will is it if not God's?


I am not arguing with you, just pointing out what happens in God's universe must be God's doing!
...if not God, then who or what?

So it is Gods will that Satan is on the earth?

 

[bottomofsandal]

So it is Gods will that Satan is on the earth?

Yes, especially since God cast the devil out of Heaven and down to earth.


Many things we cannot understand, because God doesn't want us to understand.

One thing we can comprehend is God is in absolute, total control of everything.

If not, then He is not God, and there is a force or a being more powerful than God.

 

[EmSw]

Yes.
Patience for absolute sure.

I don't get my doctrine from the WCF either. Where did you get the idea that I did?

Then where do you get your doctrine that God predestines some to eternal life and foreordains others to eternal damnation? Strike one. Not a good start for you.

Of course it doesn't make it so and of course you are free to agree or disagree with them on some points and I am free to do the same (as I do).

But since you have taken it upon yourself to be a critic of so called Calvinism and since the WCF is almost almost universally seen by Calvinists to be in line with their doctrine - it stands to reason that the WCF could and should be cited frequently as a matter of discussion concerning what Calvinists believe.

Again, the doctrine I presented above is not in the Bible, but extrapolated from the WCF.

Since you keep misrepresenting what they believe, it only stands to reason that I would present it again as proof that you are doing so. I have done and will continue to do exactly that.

Is stating that God predestines some to eternal life and foreordains others to eternal damnation a misrepresentation of what you believe?

And yet you continue to misstate Calvinist beliefs. Somewhere along the line after a year or so one has to wonder if you are a liar or just not very sharp. No offense meant - that's just logical truth.

Since you think I misstated your beliefs, I will present your beliefs from your own WCF.

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

Do you deny these ungodly words? Or, do you uphold them in utmost care?

Yes I do understand that the misrepresented way that you present what Calvinists believe is highly offensive to many. It would be to me also if it were an accurate statement of what they believe.

Again, these words from you WCF are offensive to many.

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

But (for at least 20 or 30 times now) the Reformed doctrine of predestination includes the ability of men to make choices and the fact that they will make those choices and the fact that they will be judged fairly because of them.

Can the ones foreordained to everlasting death do anything which will affect the outcome? Even if they make the decision to believe Jesus, will this change God's foreordination of their everlasting death?

If you are talking about unconditional election on the other hand - that doctrine if "more than fair" simply because God owes nothing to people who have used their wills to sin against Him. If He chooses to extend extra grace to some to show His grace in the ages to come and chooses to pass others by and leave them to the consequences of their sins to show forth His righteous judgment and holiness in the ages to come - that does not change for one minute that all men are guilty of sins against God.

Why do you think He owes you anything? Have you not used your will to sin against Him? If He chooses you and not another, you make God a respecter of persons, showing partiality. This is a huge shortcoming of predestination.

Since you deny and reject Deuteronomy 10:17, Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11, Ephesians 6:9, and Colossians 3:25, you now have two strikes against you.

Yes - I was predestined to be so before salvation came to me and was accepted.

The Apostle Paul and I are alike in that respect.

And before you say something really foolish again - when I accepted Christ I did not change what was predestined for me. I was predestined to be both lost for a portion of my life and saved for a portion of my life.

So predestination does change. Can God make up His mind for you? Maybe He changes His mind again and predestines you to be lost again.

That concept is so easy to understand that I just have to think that you zeal for making witty come backs and the like are what has caused you to say the really foolish things you have said on this front.

Jesus, perhaps John the Baptist, and perhaps infants who die prematurely are the only exceptions I can think of to the concept of a dual status being predestined for display in different parts of their lives.

Dual status, huh? Is that what you call it when God changes His mind?

Of course understanding Calvinism isn't required by God for Salvation. Who ever said that it was? No one here I trust.

Good. Now we can finally do away with Calvinism since it's not required for salvation. I bet you don't like that statement, do you?

If you have no need for Calvinism and you want nothing from it - then why on earth are you one of the most frequent posters on the subject? In fact you have gone out of your way to start threads just to draw out conversation on the doctrines of grace.

Why did Jesus frequently speak of the scribes and Pharisees and their beliefs?

Frankly - I don't care much at all if you become a Calvinist or not. What I continue to care about is that you not be misrepresent what Calvinists believe and then when you are corrected from an authority on Calvinism (the WCF) you then lie again and again by very "purposeful" misrepresentation.

Either that or you are simply the dullest tool in the shed and, after dealing with you for some time, I no longer believe that. That leads me to believe that you are lying. I have no other choice.

Sure, there's another choice...the Spirit is guiding me in truth.

Wisdom from above would dictate that you would strive to understand the beliefs of others and make sure that you do not misrepresent them before you do a critique on them. Wisdom from above does not need to create straw men through misrepresentation.

Am I misrepresenting your beliefs when I give the following -

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

By the same measure you use - your non-Calvinist friends John Wesley and Joseph Smith both believe tremendously different than you do. You non-Calvinists "can't make up your own minds on what to believe".

We believe man has free-will to choose as he pleases. We don't believe we are predestined by God to believe a certain way.

Let's make this the last point by point marathon post. I just don't have the time for it.

Since you are the one with the beef against Reformed theology - just make a point or ask a question and then I'll respond to it.

OK?

Okay. Does God show partiality to people? Is He a respecter of persons?

P.S. You only have one more strike, then you're out.

 

[EmSw]

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:16

God is the author of all scripture, including Roman and Ephesians.

You have directly claimed that God took himself out of context. That is a shameful thing that you have done and worthy of rebuke.

No I didn't. I said Paul did. Is Paul God to you?