How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[MennoSota]

One of the most offensive statements is that God has predestined some men to eternal life, and foreordained some to eternal damnation. Don't you understand that is very offensive to millions of people?

And here we have the core issue.

God offends you when He tells you that people are predestined in Ephesians 1. It offends you so much that you refuse to read it or respond to it.

God's word says that the message would be offensive to those who are perishing, but it would be a blessing to those who believe.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31
[17]For Christ didn’t send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News—and not with clever speech, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.
[18]The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.
[19]As the Scriptures say, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.”
[20]So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish.
[21]Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe.
[22]It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom.
[23]So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense.
[24]But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
[25]This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is stronger than the greatest of human strength.
[26]Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world’s eyes or powerful or wealthy when God called you.
[27]Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.
[28]God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important.
[29]As a result, no one can ever boast in the presence of God.
[30]God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin.
[31]Therefore, as the Scriptures say, “If you want to boast, boast only about the lord.”

 

[OzSpen]

Sounds like God chose us so we could choose whether or not we would choose Him back ?

...

I wonder what you would say about justice if you were damned and experiencing the flames of Gehenna - all because YHWH sent you there, based on his eternal decree.

 

[sdowney717]

I wonder what you would say about justice if you were damned and experiencing the flames of Gehenna - all because YHWH sent you there, based on his eternal decree.

You mean this decree?
Ezekiel 18:4
“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

 

[OzSpen]

You mean this decree?
Ezekiel 18:4
“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

It doesn't say that the soul of the unrepentant sinner will be sent to Gehenna by God, ordered there by the God of justice.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is God's plan predestined?

It doesn't matter here. What does matter is YHWH'S WORD and SALVATION in Y'SHUA.
HIS children are set apart and live accordingly, as HE says.
They /we [ekklesia born again] abide in HIM and don't worry about all the arguments, follies, silliness, and rebellion in mankind.
IF anyone wants to be set FREE from sin and death; Y'SHUA is the ONLY WAY. TODAY, not by and by - this "ABIDING in HIM" is TODAY.

1 John 3:6
KJ21
Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.
ASV
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.
AMP
No one who abides in Him [who remains united in fellowship with Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin. No one who habitually sins has seen Him or known Him.
AMPC
No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is is possible that God is using means through me to teach you about brotherly love?

No. Not necessarily nor apparently.
Not through you.
Perhaps by you.
YHWH uses everything both good and bad, all things, to the good of those who love YHWH, who are called according to HIS PURPOSE.

Don't you understand that is very offensive to millions of people?

BILLIONS of people. YHWH'S WORD even, and even Y'SHUA offends BILLIONS of people.
But not ekklesia born again ones. They are not offended. (unless acting or living carnal) Even little children in Christ are not offended.
IF (as happens) ekklesia are offended, that is due to sin that is being worked out/ they are being purified, or need to be.

 

[bottomofsandal]

And here we have the core issue.

God offends you when He tells you that people are predestined in Ephesians 1. It offends you so much that you refuse to read it or respond to it.

God's word says that the message would be offensive to those who are perishing, but it would be a blessing to those who believe.

The fist-shakers condemn God's righteous judgment as offensive...

For some reason, that is never explained, nor supported Biblically, all men must have a fair opportunity to be saved or God is not who He claims. God is depicted as unfair, unloving, unjust, et al, if He will not exercise the same level of concern as man exhibits. But, is this really concern or a just a posturing platitude? Why? This position, although well-meaning, has implicit at it's core the foundational supposition that men love more than God. More compassion. More forgiveness. This pov demands God feel, act, and reign like a man would govern. It comes across as an indictment on God's lack of being the God that many believe He should be, but The Bible clearly reveals God's attributes.


At times this pov seems like a romantic fairy tale that must have a happy-ending.

 

[bottomofsandal]

I wonder what you would say about justice if you were damned and experiencing the flames of Gehenna - all because YHWH sent you there, based on his eternal decree.

Do you have sympathy for the devil?

Are you showing compassion for the God-haters who reside in hell?


People send themselves to hell by committing sins against God.
His justice demands eternal punishment and eternal condemnation.
Will not The Judge of all the earth do right? (Genesis 18:25)

Are you questioning God's motives?
Are you saying God made a mistake?
What are you saying?...it's hard to follow since it does not align with The Word.


Genesis 18:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

 

[bottomofsandal]

Is is possible that God is using means through me to teach you about brotherly love?

The Bible tells us what love is...RIGHT?

Is it possible some men do not approve of how God loves?
Perhaps some men see themselves as greater lovers of mankind than God?
IOW, God must be like man, love like man. Since man loves a certain way, God must also?

Since God IS love. All things, all decisions, all judgments, etc. manifest God's love, justice, mercy, etc.
It appears some men are calling God's perfect holiness into question, putting God on the witness stand questioning His will.
On some level it seems like men are alleging that God's love, justice,. fairness, etc. is deficient and does not quite measure up.

One of the most offensive statements is that God has predestined some men to eternal life, and foreordained some to eternal damnation. Don't you understand that is very offensive to millions of people?

Yet, this is exactly what is happening according to God's will.
...whether we like it or not, some men go to Heaven, some hell.

You miss the point.
First, whatever God does is perfect, holy, just, loving, and right.
Maybe some just disagree with God and how He governs His universe?

Here is what is offensive...the cross
What should happen when a man hates God, hates Christ, hates the cross?

You seem to be offended by what work God is doing on the earth. Why?
You seem offended that some men are in hell. Should all men be in Heaven?

 

[bling]

The fist-shakers condemn God's righteous judgment as offensive...

For some reason, that is never explained, nor supported Biblically, all men must have a fair opportunity to be saved or God is not who He claims. God is depicted as unfair, unloving, unjust, et al, if He will not exercise the same level of concern as man exhibits. But, is this really concern or a just a posturing platitude? Why? This position, although well-meaning, has implicit at it's core the foundational supposition that men love more than God. More compassion. More forgiveness. This pov demands God feel, act, and reign like a man would govern. It comes across as an indictment on God's lack of being the God that many believe He should be, but The Bible clearly reveals God's attributes.


At times this pov seems like a romantic fairy tale that must have a happy-ending.

Given the right true understanding of salvation shows God to be completely unconditionally unselfishly sacrificially Loving of all humans.

Godly type Love is defined by all Christ said and did, but you can also use 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4.

We are not questioning God’s Love, but we do question an interpretation of scripture that presents God as unfair/unjust, arbitrary, and unloving.

All of God’s attributes are included with a God with unbelievable unconditional Love.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Given the right true understanding of salvation shows God to be completely unconditionally unselfishly sacrificially Loving of all humans.

Godly type Love is defined by all Christ said and did, but you can also use 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4.

We are not questioning God’s Love, but we do question an interpretation of scripture that presents God as unfair/unjust, arbitrary, and unloving.

All of God’s attributes are included with a God with unbelievable unconditional Love.

But, salvation IS conditional.

To question the outcome, is to question all God's motives and attributes.

When a man chooses hell, that's on the man, not God.


No one here is depicting an unfair, unjust, and unloving God.

God's actions are simply being put forth as proof of His Divine Providential will.

Either what is happening is what God ultimately willed and knew about, or something is more powerful than God.


We can't have it both ways. Either God foreknew, willed, and controlled the outcome-

Or someone/something/some power is interfering with God's work on the earth.


Was it God's work to save all men on the earth?
If so, what prevented His will from completion?
Could God have save 100% of humanity? Yes!
Then why did God not insure this outcome?


...please don't say man's will and say-so is the impediment

 

[EmSw]

And here we have the core issue.

God offends you when He tells you that people are predestined in Ephesians 1. It offends you so much that you refuse to read it or respond to it.

God's word says that the message would be offensive to those who are perishing, but it would be a blessing to those who believe.

Mr. Sota, it's not the predestination to eternal life which offends me. Do you understand that?

It's the foreordaining of men to eternal damnation without recourse. This is sickening to those who know God's love. Man, with imperfect love, cannot stand that God condemns men to hell without recourse. How can God, Who is perfect Love, sink below man's level of love?

1 Corinthians 13
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

The love of God, which surpasses our understanding, is kind, is not provoked, thinks no evil, and bears all things. This is totally opposite of the love Calvinists think God should have. Calvinists want to give God the love imperfect man possesses. Evil men want to throw everyone into hell; they have no compassion on anyone.

If man were God, then we would have man throwing everyone into hell who disagrees with him. I have seen this from Calvinists who doubt the salvation of anyone who disagrees with them; Calvinists call these people some of the most wicked names and practically say they are going to hell. But then again, each student learns and acts just like his teacher.

Anyone who does not love his neighbor, brother, or enemy has perverted the love of God.

 

[EmSw]

The Bible tells us what love is...RIGHT?

Is it possible some men do not approve of how God loves?
Perhaps some men see themselves as greater lovers of mankind than God?
IOW, God must be like man, love like man. Since man loves a certain way, God must also?

Since God IS love. All things, all decisions, all judgments, etc. manifest God's love, justice, mercy, etc.
It appears some men are calling God's perfect holiness into question, putting God on the witness stand questioning His will.
On some level it seems like men are alleging that God's love, justice,. fairness, etc. is deficient and does not quite measure up.


Yet, this is exactly what is happening according to God's will.
...whether we like it or not, some men go to Heaven, some hell.

You miss the point.
First, whatever God does is perfect, holy, just, loving, and right.
Maybe some just disagree with God and how He governs His universe?

Here is what is offensive...the cross
What should happen when a man hates God, hates Christ, hates the cross?

You seem to be offended by what work God is doing on the earth. Why?
You seem offended that some men are in hell. Should all men be in Heaven?

Predestination is not the cross!

Again, for the umpteenth time, you don't know if your predestined to eternal life or eternal damnation. You may be arguing for your own demise. I've read some Calvinists don't care if they go to hell if God's determines that. REALLY??? What an insane statement. Do you care if God determined you should go to hell?

 

[EmSw]

It doesn't matter here. What does matter is YHWH'S WORD and SALVATION in Y'SHUA.

It really doesn't matter? Say what? Does it bother you that God may have predestined you to eternal damnation?

 

[MennoSota]

Given the right true understanding of salvation shows God to be completely unconditionally unselfishly sacrificially Loving of all humans.

Godly type Love is defined by all Christ said and did, but you can also use 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4.

We are not questioning God’s Love, but we do question an interpretation of scripture that presents God as unfair/unjust, arbitrary, and unloving.

All of God’s attributes are included with a God with unbelievable unconditional Love.

God is perfectly just in sending all rebels to hell, away from his holiness.

God would be unjust to allow rebels into his presence without the debt of their rebellion being atoned for.

God shows great love by choosing to reconcile even one rebel.

God has zero obligation to reconcile with rebels. He is just and right if he casts all rebels into hell. He is gracious and merciful to rebels by his selection and his selection alone. No rebel can do enough individual good to make up for rebellion because a person will always rebel apart from God's grace.

 

[MennoSota]

Mr. Sota, it's not the predestination to eternal life which offends me. Do you understand that?

It's the foreordaining of men to eternal damnation without recourse. This is sickening to those who know God's love. Man, with imperfect love, cannot stand that God condemns men to hell without recourse. How can God, Who is perfect Love, sink below man's level of love?

1 Corinthians 13
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

The love of God, which surpasses our understanding, is kind, is not provoked, thinks no evil, and bears all things. This is totally opposite of the love Calvinists think God should have. Calvinists want to give God the love imperfect man possesses. Evil men want to throw everyone into hell; they have no compassion on anyone.

If man were God, then we would have man throwing everyone into hell who disagrees with him. I have seen this from Calvinists who doubt the salvation of anyone who disagrees with them; Calvinists call these people some of the most wicked names and practically say they are going to hell. But then again, each student learns and acts just like his teacher.

Anyone who does not love his neighbor, brother, or enemy has perverted the love of God.

Read Romans 9.

Who are you, oh man, to argue with God's decree?

Paul lays it out and tells you that your complaint is illegitimate.

Romans 9:19-23
[19]Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
[20]No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
[21]When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
[22]In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
[23]He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.

 

[EmSw]

But, salvation IS conditional.

To question the outcome, is to question all God's motives and attributes.

When a man chooses hell, that's on the man, not God.

No one here is depicting an unfair, unjust, and unloving God.

God's actions are simply being put forth as proof of His Divine Providential will.

Either what is happening is what God ultimately willed and knew about, or something is more powerful than God.

We can't have it both ways. Either God foreknew, willed, and controlled the outcome-

Or someone/something/some power is interfering with God's work on the earth.

Was it God's work to save all men on the earth?
If so, what prevented His will from completion?
Could God have save 100% of humanity? Yes!
Then why did God not insure this outcome?

...please don't say man's will and say-so is the impediment

Sure God could have saved all men, but then heaven would be hell.

Why not say free-will? It's because it undermines your whole theology.

Only man can freely choose to live as he pleases or as God pleases. God tells us over and over again how to live in order to have life. Man would rather live as they please and still get to heaven the way they choose. They play God thinking it doesn't matter if sin continues in their lives. Not to worry, God is not mocked, nor is He deceived.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It really doesn't matter? Say what? Does it bother you that God may have predestined you to eternal damnation?

It really doesn't matter here. "WHAT?"
No.

Does it bother you that this country may have a contract on your life ?

Does it bother you to not understand why you or others have to experience pain for years sometimes ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

They play God thinking it doesn't matter if sin continues in their lives.

Do you realize you're talking about most people on earth, everywhere, here ?

Very few if any that you know know how to stop sinning,

and most people here and everywhere say it is no problem when they willingly keep sinning.

It doesn't matter what religion they hold to , or what they are "labelled" as .

 

[EmSw]

Read Romans 9.

Who are you, oh man, to argue with God's decree?

Paul lays it out and tells you that your complaint is illegitimate.

Romans 9:19-23
[19]Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
[20]No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
[21]When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
[22]In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
[23]He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.

Jeremiah 13
22 And if you say in your heart, “Why have these things come upon me?” For the greatness of your iniquity your skirts have been uncovered, your heels made bare.

Here again, we see Paul taking the potter passages out of context. But that doesn't bother you, does it?

Jeremiah 18
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!
7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,
8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.
9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,
10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.”

First of all, this is written to God's chosen people, the house of Israel.
Second, it does say the potter can do what he desires. However, if a nation and kingdom is said to be plucked up and destroyed, BUT IT TURNS FROM ITS EVIL, God will relent of the disaster.

Third, if God desires to build and plant a nation and kingdom, BUT IT DIES EVIL IN HIS SIGHT AND DOES NOT OBEY HIS VOICE, God will relent concerning the good which He said would benefit it.

Again, we see it depends entirely upon man as to whether God will destroy him or benefit him. If the inhabitants of Jerusalem did not return from their evil way and make their doings good, God will not relent of the disaster He devised against them.

Context, my friend, context.