How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[EmSw]

I show you the Mosaic Covenant, which you must be unaware of and you still run from Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2. Why?
If you don't wish to be guided by God's word, you should really leave this discussion.

Did the Mosaic covenant give life or death? Did the Mosaic covenant include the law? Did the Mosaic covenant include circumcision of the heart? How is it you believe the Mosaic covenant was a ministry of death? God does not give laws responsible for death.

You need to hold Paul to the same standards you hold me to. Paul cherry-picked verses all the time, but I have yet to hear you criticize that. I'm not saying Paul was wrong, but you must hold the same standards for everyone. Tell me how many cherry-picked verses Paul pulls out of the OT in Romans 9. Go ahead and tell me. Then go back to where he cherry-picked them and tell me the context of each cherry-picked verse. You can start with -

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

It has nothing to do with Jacob or Esau, it has nothing to with predestination, it has nothing to do with the children of promise, it has nothing to do with Pharaoh, and it has nothing to do with all Israel not being Israel. Yet, when Paul pulls this cherry-picked verse out of context, you drool over it and dive headlong into it.

This verse has to do with Moses being shown God's goodness as it passed before him (Exodus 33:19). Context, my friend, context. If you desire to take verses out of context, you should leave this discussion.

Exodus 33
18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why do you insist on salvation by works? Read Galatians because your comments are what Paul rejected in Galatians.

I have been dealing off and on with EmSw for quite some time and have come to realize that his concept of salvation is indeed based on works instead of grace.

We see a person saved by grace and then working out their salvation with fear and trembling in a sanctification way working toward reward/loss etc.

He sees salvation based on how successful one is at working out that sanctification.

We come at it from a completely different paradigm. And in the case of EmSw it isn't just the standard Calvinist/Arminian paradigm difference. It's the grace/works paradigm difference.

....... Instead you have gone back to cherry picking verses out of context. Why? Why do you avoid these passages while cherry picking verses out of their context.
You have no legitimate argument, Ew. You run from full passages that show God's choice and predestination.

He has admitted to me many times that he has no use for the approach to the scriptures which we share with other Reformed believers - namely a systematic approach to the truth of scriptures.

As a result he will always feel free to take any verse he can find as a stand alone verse to support his position.

While I do believe that he affirms the doctrine of the Trinity - it would be an excellent example of the kinds of troubles we have with conversing with him over Christian doctrine.

Obviously if one took individual scripture passages about there being only one God and such by themselves and without a systematic inclusion of other concepts we would argue against Jesus being God. But when we take a systematic balanced approach we end up affirming the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit and thus the doctrine of the Trinity.

It's a bit like trying to nail jello to the wall - debating with him - because we have no common base to keep coming back to.

I have to say that he seems to take some pride in being able to frustrate others by his flexibility of approach. It is, admittedly, frustrating.

I'm not calling his belief a cult or any such thing. But dealing with him is much like dealing with cults.

In the final analysis - I believe he is preaching another gospel than the gospel of grace which we have received.

 

[EmSw]

I have been dealing off and on with EmSw for quite some time and have come to realize that his concept of salvation is indeed based on works instead of grace.

We see a person saved by grace and then working out their salvation with fear and trembling in a sanctification way working toward reward/loss etc.

He sees salvation based on how successful one is at working out that sanctification.

We come at it from a completely different paradigm. And in the case of EmSw it isn't just the standard Calvinist/Arminian paradigm difference. It's the grace/works paradigm difference.

He has admitted to me many times that he has no use for the approach to the scriptures which we share with other Reformed believers - namely a systematic approach to the truth of scriptures.

As a result he will always feel free to take any verse he can find as a stand alone verse to support his position.

While I do believe that he affirms the doctrine of the Trinity - it would be an excellent example of the kinds of troubles we have with conversing with him over Christian doctrine.

Obviously if one took individual scripture passages about there being only one God and such by themselves and without a systematic inclusion of other concepts we would argue against Jesus being God. But when we take a systematic balanced approach we end up affirming the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit and thus the doctrine of the Trinity.

It's a bit like trying to nail jello to the wall - debating with him - because we have no common base to keep coming back to.

I have to say that he seems to take some pride in being able to frustrate others by his flexibility of approach. It is, admittedly, frustrating.

I'm not calling his belief a cult or any such thing. But dealing with him is much like dealing with cults.

In the final analysis - I believe he is preaching another gospel than the gospel of grace which we have received.

You guys are amazing. You believe so much in predestination, but when it isn't to your liking, you decide to fight it. If God has predestined me to believe as I do, then let it be. You try so hard to change God's predestination. If you don't like what God has predestined for me, then please leave this discussion.

There are plenty of people on this forum who believe man is able to freely choose as he wishes. We don't need those who fight against their own beliefs. In fact, go sit in your arm chair, have an iced tea, and watch TV. Nothing you can do or say will change God's predestination. I don't see how you think your input will do any good. You are just blowing hot air in the room, complaining and trying to change God's predestination.

If you don't like God's predestination for me, just go to your 'Calvinist' room, and moan all you want. You will have all the sympathetic ears you desire. You will have all the companions you desire to fight God's predestination.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You guys are amazing. You believe so much in predestination, but when it isn't to your liking, you decide to fight it. If God has predestined me to believe as I do, then let it be. You try so hard to change God's predestination. If you don't like what God has predestined for me, then please leave this discussion.

There are plenty of people on this forum who believe man is able to freely choose as he wishes. We don't need those who fight against their own beliefs. In fact, go sit in your arm chair, have an iced tea, and watch TV. Nothing you can do or say will change God's predestination. I don't see how you think your input will do any good. You are just blowing hot air in the room, complaining and trying to change God's predestination.

If you don't like God's predestination for me, just go to your 'Calvinist' room, and moan all you want. You will have all the sympathetic ears you desire. You will have all the companions you desire to fight God's predestination.

That kind of brings to mind a point I would like to ask the Calvinists about.

Does the way that we live day to day predestined by God also? The closeness or not closeness of relationship, the amount of prayer, Bible reading, ect. Does God then map out our entire existance after salvation? Why or why not?

 

[MennoSota]

That kind of brings to mind a point I would like to ask the Calvinists about.

Does the way that we live day to day predestined by God also? The closeness or not closeness of relationship, the amount of prayer, Bible reading, ect. Does God then map out our entire existance after salvation? Why or why not?

What does the Bible say on the matter?
I won't speculate on something if it isn't found in Scripture. So...what can you find in the Bible to answer your question.

 

[EmSw]

That kind of brings to mind a point I would like to ask the Calvinists about.

Does the way that we live day to day predestined by God also? The closeness or not closeness of relationship, the amount of prayer, Bible reading, ect. Does God then map out our entire existance after salvation? Why or why not?

Marvin has said God predestines everything, down to the smallest detail.

What this means is God's predestination is constantly changing; it's not permanent. If one believes they are predestined to eternal life, it can change at God's whim.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is the grace of God irresistible as the "I" in TULIP proclaims?

No.

What enables some men to receive the grace of God unto salvation?

YHWH loves them for no reason.

OTOH, what prevents some men from receiving God's grace?

They're sons of the devil.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What this means is God's predestination is constantly changing; it's not permanent.

Nothing means that.

 

[EmSw]

Nothing means that.

Do you believe God predestined everything?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you believe God predestined everything?

It doesn't matter if I believe that or not.

 

[EmSw]

It doesn't matter if I believe that or not.

Then your answer doesn't matter.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What does the Bible say on the matter?

I think Y'SHUA said several times that HE always did what ABBA wanted HIM to do.
Y'SHUA never did anything for or of HIMSELF.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then your answer doesn't matter.

nor yours.

 

[EmSw]

nor yours.

It wasn't my answer; it was my question.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It wasn't my answer; it was my question.

The question doesn't matter either.

 

[EmSw]

The question doesn't matter either.

If it matters to me, it matters.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If it matters to me, it matters.

All we can do is pray.
When YHWH'S WORD is all that matters,
then YHWH'S PLAN is accomplished.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If God has predestined me to believe as I do, then let it be. You try so hard to change God's predestination.

You really don't listen very good do you?

God uses means to bring about what He has predestined to happen.

There are plenty of people on this forum who believe man is able to freely choose as he wishes. We don't need those who fight against their own beliefs.

Depending of course by what you mean by "freely" choose - everyone believes that Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike. Read the Westminster Confession of faith on the matter. It makes it clear that predestination does not in any way eliminate the choices of men but instead those choices establish what is predestined.

In fact, go sit in your arm chair, have an iced tea, and watch TV. Nothing you can do or say will change God's predestination. I don't see how you think your input will do any good. You are just blowing hot air in the room, complaining and trying to change God's predestination.

No one is trying to change what God has predestined to take place. We are just playing our part in bringing to past what He has predestined.

I know that I have insulted you many times in the past and I don't want to do it again here and now.

But are you really not able to understand these things or are you just pretending to be dense?

In fact, go sit in your arm chair, have an iced tea, and watch TV. Nothing you can do or say will change God's predestination. I don't see how you think your input will do any good. You are just blowing hot air in the room, complaining and trying to change God's predestination. If you don't like God's predestination for me, just go to your 'Calvinist' room, and moan all you want. You will have all the sympathetic ears you desire. You will have all the companions you desire to fight God's predestination.

No Calvinist is trying to change predestination. That's just plain silly.

If I preach the gospel to a man who has not yet accepted Christ and is therefore lost - I am not trying to change what he is predestined to be. I am simply obeying the Lord in the preaching of the gospel in order that (if he is one of the elect) he will enter into his final destiny.

Could it possibly be that after all of these conversations you don't understand what Calvinists believe about predestination?

I know you are not a Calvinist and that's OK by me.

But you can't possibly be as dense as you make out to be - whether you be spiritually alive or not.

But on the off chance that you are not just playing games and that you really don't get it I'll just say the following in hopes of kindling a little wisdom somehow.

In all honesty - it doesn't matter to me much if you become a Calvinist or Reformed or anything else for that matter.

But it just seems to me that a wise man would want to at least understand what someone believed if he was going to spend time trying to oppose it.

 

[EmSw]

You really don't listen very good do you?

God uses means to bring about what He has predestined to happen.

Is is possible that God is using means through me to teach you about brotherly love?

Depending of course by what you mean by "freely" choose - everyone believes that Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike. Read the Westminster Confession of faith on the matter. It makes it clear that predestination does not in any way eliminate the choices of men but instead those choices establish what is predestined.

Marvin, you know I don't get my doctrine from the WCF. This is where you get yours. I do not believe what they wrote. Just because some men got together to write their views on God, does not make it truth.

One of the most offensive statements is that God has predestined some men to eternal life, and foreordained some to eternal damnation. Don't you understand that is very offensive to millions of people?

No one is trying to change what God has predestined to take place. We are just playing our part in bringing to past what He has predestined.

I know that I have insulted you many times in the past and I don't want to do it again here and now.

But are you really not able to understand these things or are you just pretending to be dense?

So you are playing your part in bringing to pass the damnation of people, right? Who in their right mind wants to understand that?

No Calvinist is trying to change predestination. That's just plain silly.

If I preach the gospel to a man who has not yet accepted Christ and is therefore lost - I am not trying to change what he is predestined to be. I am simply obeying the Lord in the preaching of the gospel in order that (if he is one of the elect) he will enter into his final destiny.

Were you predestined to be a child of darkness. Were you predestined to be lost before salvation?

Could it possibly be that after all of these conversations you don't understand what Calvinists believe about predestination?

I know you are not a Calvinist and that's OK by me.

But you can't possibly be as dense as you make out to be - whether you be spiritually alive or not.

But on the off chance that you are not just playing games and that you really don't get it I'll just say the following in hopes of kindling a little wisdom somehow.

Understanding Calvinism and predestination is not required by God for salvation. I want nothing from Calvinism. Why can't you understand that?

Besides, my wisdom comes from above, not from the WCF.

In all honesty - it doesn't matter to me much if you become a Calvinist or Reformed or anything else for that matter.

But it just seems to me that a wise man would want to at least understand what someone believed if he was going to spend time trying to oppose it.

I've been on this forum for years Marvin. I think I have seen the many facets of Reformed belief.

Your friend Minno says he is a five-pointer, you say your are a four-pointer. Who is right Marvin? How does one understand your beliefs when you all can't make up your own minds on what to believe?

 

[EmSw]

All we can do is pray.
When YHWH'S WORD is all that matters,
then YHWH'S PLAN is accomplished.

Is God's plan predestined?