How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[ToBeLoved]

I don't have a lack of biblical understanding, so your point is moot.

Plus, this thread isn't about me.

Well, I am honored that you have chosen to participate and ask questions not relevant to the thread to support your own understanding.

Hopefully, one day I will learn something from your wisdom.

 

[Hank77]

So one must believe in order to be in a state of salvation. Is that a state of regeneration or justification. If it's the latter, I'd be inclined to agree. If it's the former, then I'd have to disagree.

It is a state of justification through faith, which brings about regeneration/new birth.

1. Yes
2. Yes.
3. No
4. No.

You didn't answer the last two questions, would you do that please?

5) If you have sinned did God allow you to sin?
6) If you have made a mistake did God allow you to make the mistake?

 

[Hammster]

Really? I think anyone reading this thread can see that you

1. Rarely answer anything with more than one sentence, much less God's Word
2. You choose to put questions back onto the other person, rather than try to explain the Bible that you do not seem to understand.

So I will let each participant look back on your posts and decide what is truth. Sometimes we convict ourselves with our actions, nothing needed from anyone else.

It's been awhile since I've explained this, and you're relatively new to this area, so I'll explain my methods to you.

One, I don't do long posts for two reasons. First, I do all of my posts from my phone, so it's burdensome to type out long replies. Second, long posts tend to not be taken as a whole. They get deconstructed and by the time the reply is finished, what it said is completely lost. Or, just as bad, only one or two sentences are replied to anyway.

As to the questions, they are cross-examination questions. If you (used generically) make a statement, I would think you would want to defend it, and welcome the chance. People only tend to get upset with the questions when their statements are superficial and cannot stand up to scrutiny.

I hope that helps.

 

[Hammster]

It is a state of justification through faith, which brings about regeneration/new birth.

So then you will be comfortable in asserting that one can please God in an unregenerate state, correct?

 

[Hammster]

You didn't answer the last two questions, would you do that please?

They were "if so" questions, so they were not relevant.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It's been awhile since I've explained this, and you're relatively new to this area, so I'll explain my methods to you.

One, I don't do long posts for two reasons. First, I do all of my posts from my phone, so it's burdensome to type out long replies. Second, long posts tend to not be taken as a whole. They get deconstructed and by the time the reply is finished, what it said is completely lost. Or, just as bad, only one or two sentences are replied to anyway.

As to the questions, they are cross-examination questions. If you (used generically) make a statement, I would think you would want to defend it, and welcome the chance. People only tend to get upset with the questions when their statements are superficial and cannot stand up to scrutiny.

I hope that helps.

I'm not sure why one would feel they need to defend their faith when the other person chooses not to participate in a conversation. Now many times I also answer on my phone, however it is the responsibility of the communicator to express themselves well enough that the one reading their post understands what that person is saying and can adequately answer. Especially when the medium is writing.

Sharing and writing what others cannot understand or that they do not feel to be true and then answering their questions with a question, is hardly effective communication. As a matter of fact, I would say that it is not at all effective and causes less understanding and leads to more questions, that are again answered not in their own right, but with another question. Seems like a cycle to me.

 

[Hammster]

I'm not sure why one would feel they need to defend their faith when the other person chooses not to participate in a conversation. Now many times I also answer on my phone, however it is the responsibility of the communicator to express themselves well enough that the one reading their post understands what that person is saying and can adequately answer. Especially when the medium is writing.

Sharing and writing what others cannot understand or that they do not feel to be true and then answering their questions with a question, is hardly effective communication. As a matter of fact, I would say that it is not at all effective and causes less understanding and leads to more questions, that are again answered not in their own right, but with another question. Seems like a cycle to me.

You post in the way you feel is best. I don't criticize it. I just as for the same consideration.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You post in the way you feel is best. I don't criticize it. I just as for the same consideration.

Others on this thread have said the same thing, so I do not feel isolated in my opinion but feel that the same thing has been expressed by others. That is something to think about.

Please note that earlier I said I do understand about replying via cell phone, it is harder and more prone to having to modify your post for spelling errors. I often have to do the same, so I do know it is not easy. Sometimes I will reply to a post that I do not have time to adequately answer the post right now, but that I will come back later in the day or evening when I have more time to give to the answer. I think that is ok and most people are happy with my doing that, or so they say. So there are ways around the technology setbacks, I think.

 

[Skala]

I think you need to explain why you have changed the Words of God.

You added 'of the elect'. Are you reading your own opinion into God's perfect Word?

He didn't add anything. If the verse in question is 2 Pet 3:9, he is simply acknowledging that the pronoun "you" is "the elect", which was already established earlier in the book (2nd Peter), indeed, even in the previous letter (1st Peter)

Follow the pronouns throughout the books/chapter:

The introduction to chapter 3 says "beloved, this is the second letter I have written to you" (2 Peter 3:1)
Who is the "you"? Who is "the beloved"?
If 2nd Peter is the second letter written to this group, that means 1st Peter was the first letter written to them.
The recipients of 1st Peter is "God's elect..exiles scattered abroad" (1 Peter 1:1-2)
So when you get to 2nd Peter Chapter 3 Verse 9, it says:
"The Lord is patient towards YOU..not willing that any should perish"

Who is the "you"?
Is this a pronoun?
Was the antecedent already established for the past several chapters and at least 2 books?

The answer is yes.

 

[Skala]

I also noticed Judas BECAME a traitor, which indicates he wasn't one when elected by Jesus.

Judas was the son of perdition and "fulfilled scripture"
In other words, scripture already existed (the old testament) that someone would be a traitor.
Judas was predestined to be a traitor, lest scripture be wrong

Do you think Jesus knew this?

 

[sdowney717]

Yes, Peter is writing to the beloved elect of God.
God is not willing that any of them perish but that all come to repentance.
So then none of the beloved elect are lost. Christ says the same thing, in that of all the Father has given Him, God is not willing that any of them perish (remain lost)..

Peter is not writing about or to the godless men he mentioned in v7 who perish.
Peter's use of 'US' is only in reference to those who will be saved. So God is longsuffering towards us as distinguished from ungodly men going to perdition..
AND His promise is eternal life for Christ's sheep, that is who are the 'US', so v9 is most definitely only for Christ's sheep, lost then all are saved.

7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Skala]

Well the Bible disagree's with you because it shows that God is looking for faith and it is BY FAITH that we are saved as we accept god's free gift of salvation BY FAITH for the New Covenant and in the Old Covenant, righteousness was imputed to them THROUGH FAITH.

So as you try to prove predestination, you are missing the FAITH that we need to have to accept the free gift.

The Bible teaches that faith is a gift from God.
I believe the Bible.

It's you who denies that faith is a gift, thinking it self-wrought by unregenerate people (who then become regenerate as a result)

This flies in the face of John 3 which teaches we must be born again before we can even see, let alone enter, the Kingdom of God.

Your theology is that a man sees the kingdom and chooses to enter it by faith, then is born again as a result.

The Synod of Dordt already addressed your incorrect theology when they said:

For this (ToBeLoved's soteriology) does away with all effective functioning of God’s grace in our conversion and subjects the activity of Almighty God to human will; it is contrary to the apostles, who teach that “we believe by virtue of the effective working of God’s mighty strength” (Eph. 1:19), and that “God fulfills the undeserved good will of his kindness and the work of faith in us with power” (2 Thess. 1:11), and likewise that “his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness” (2 Pet. 1:3).

Not to mention Eph 2:8-9 which says that faith is a gift, and "not of ourselves"

 

[sdowney717]

2 Peter 3 and Christ's words agree regarding the lost sheep of Christ. He says God is not willing any of these little ones perish.
And Christ seeks His own lost sheep.Christ seeks them and saves them so they should not perish, and that is God's will that they live.

Matthew 18:10-14New King James Version (NKJV)
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

And if you do not receive Him as a little one, then you will perish.

Matthew 18:3
and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

So therefore, the kingdom of heaven is filled with little children whom God was not willing that they should perish.
After All is said, it is up to God to choose to impute or not impute to man their sins, blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute to him their sins.

 

[ToBeLoved]

He didn't add anything. If the verse in question is 2 Pet 3:9, he is simply acknowledging that the pronoun "you" is "the elect", which was already established earlier in the book (2nd Peter), indeed, even in the previous letter (1st Peter)

Follow the pronouns throughout the books/chapter:

The introduction to chapter 3 says "beloved, this is the second letter I have written to you" (2 Peter 3:1)
Who is the "you"? Who is "the beloved"?
If 2nd Peter is the second letter written to this group, that means 1st Peter was the first letter written to them.
The recipients of 1st Peter is "God's elect..exiles scattered abroad" (1 Peter 1:1-2)
So when you get to 2nd Peter Chapter 3 Verse 9, it says:
"The Lord is patient towards YOU..not willing that any should perish"

Who is the "you"?
Is this a pronoun?
Was the antecedent already established for the past several chapters and at least 2 books?

The answer is yes.

I still do not think nor trust another if they change God's Word. Now, they can explain or put in parentheses or something the meaning they devise from it, but to change it to me is a big no no. That can get very sloppy, not that that was the intention at all, but I've seen threads where interpretation can get out of control.

All in all, I do not like it. My opinion.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Bible teaches that faith is a gift from God.
I believe the Bible.

It's you who denies that faith is a gift, thinking it self-wrought by unregenerate people (who then become regenerate as a result)

This flies in the face of John 3 which teaches we must be born again before we can even see, let alone enter, the Kingdom of God.

Your theology is that a man sees the kingdom and chooses to enter it by faith, then is born again as a result.

The Synod of Dordt already addressed your incorrect theology when they said:

For this (ToBeLoved's soteriology) does away with all effective functioning of God’s grace in our conversion and subjects the activity of Almighty God to human will; it is contrary to the apostles, who teach that “we believe by virtue of the effective working of God’s mighty strength” (Eph. 1:19), and that “God fulfills the undeserved good will of his kindness and the work of faith in us with power” (2 Thess. 1:11), and likewise that “his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness” (2 Pet. 1:3).

Not to mention Eph 2:8-9 which says that faith is a gift, and "not of ourselves"

No one, at least not me is going to say that faith is not a gift from God. However, God gives ALL a measure of faith, the saved and the unsaved, so the measure of faith that is given by God we know that some come to God and some do not.

After a person has been saved, they change masters. One becomes a child of God and God becomes their master. It is then, when we have come to God in faith that the Almighty works through us, after through our free-will we have chosen God through faith.

I think when you read about faith, you are mixing up the measure of faith given to all and the faith that grows inside God's Own through sanctification and the revelation of Truth by the Holy Spirit.

So, you will need to deliniate between the two. If you do that, we can discuss it as you have understood that all have a measure of faith and born again believers grow in faith and the two are not the same.

 

[Hammster]

Others on this thread have said the same thing, so I do not feel isolated in my opinion but feel that the same thing has been expressed by others. That is something to think about.

Please note that earlier I said I do understand about replying via cell phone, it is harder and more prone to having to modify your post for spelling errors. I often have to do the same, so I do know it is not easy. Sometimes I will reply to a post that I do not have time to adequately answer the post right now, but that I will come back later in the day or evening when I have more time to give to the answer. I think that is ok and most people are happy with my doing that, or so they say. So there are ways around the technology setbacks, I think.

All I have is a cell phone. But thanks anyway.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All I have is a cell phone. But thanks anyway.

Well I guess then I do understand you a little better. Do not always agree but I understand more.

 

[Hammster]

I still do not think nor trust another if they change God's Word. Now, they can explain or put in parentheses or something the meaning they devise from it, but to change it to me is a big no no. That can get very sloppy, not that that was the intention at all, but I've seen threads where interpretation can get out of control.

All in all, I do not like it. My opinion.

And this is why I didn't explain it. Even though Skala adequately explained the reasoning, you didn't engage with what he said. Rather, you dismissed it as if he had said nothing.

 

[Hammster]

No one, at least not me is going to say that faith is not a gift from God. However, God gives ALL a measure of faith, the saved and the unsaved, so the measure of faith that is given by God we know that some come to God and some do not.

After a person has been saved, they change masters. One becomes a child of God and God becomes their master. It is then, when we have come to God in faith that the Almighty works through us, after through our free-will we have chosen God through faith.

I think when you read about faith, you are mixing up the measure of faith given to all and the faith that grows inside God's Own through sanctification and the revelation of Truth by the Holy Spirit.

So, you will need to deliniate between the two. If you do that, we can discuss it as you have understood that all have a measure of faith and born again believers grow in faith and the two are not the same.

If all have faith from God, then all will saved since we are justified by faith.

 

[Skala]

No one, at least not me is going to say that faith is not a gift from God. However, God gives ALL a measure of faith, the saved and the unsaved, so the measure of faith that is given by God we know that some come to God and some do not.

Like 2nd Peter 3:9, you are using a verse out of context. Let's look at the verse you're quoting (he gives all a measure of faith): Romans 12:3

For starters, if you think this verse is talking about every single individual human, you are making the Bible contradict itself, because 2 Thess 3:2 says "not all have faith".

So which is it?
Do all men have faith because God has given it to each of them?
Or
Do not all have faith?

Is the Bible contradictory? No. Maybe you are misunderstanding Romans 12:3. Let me try to persuade you:

Look at Romans 12. Read the chapter in it's entirety - don't just pluck a verse out and put it a vacuum. That's not how the Bible works. I know as kids we were taught to memorize individual Bible verses, but sometimes that is very detrimental. It makes us forget that the verse has a context.

Romans 12:1-8
12 I appeal to you therefore, brothers,by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Gifts of Grace
3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads,with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

As you can see, this passage is talking to, and about, Christians. The body of Christ. We are each members in the body. Paul is writing to believers. He's talking about each person in the body using his skills to fit a certain role. Some people are teachers, some are servants, some are contributors. When Paul says each person in the church should use his gifts according to what God has given them.

Some translations render this "God has given a measure of faith to each one", but Paul is talking about each one in the church. It is for "spiritual worship".

Paul is not saying that every single person in human history "has been given a measure of faith". He's talking to, and about, very specific people. He's talking to believers right now and he's telling them how they should act and how they should think about what role they fill in worshiping God as part of a larger body (the body of Christ)