the apocalypse

[Straightshot]

Now I see why you have a faulty rendering of Revelation's unfolding .... the first 5 portents do not match any historical events of the past

John's spirit was taken to heaven and into the future to be shown the "things hereafter" and not events of history or even the things present in his day [Revelation 19:1; 4:1]

All of the things "hereafter" are still pending and still to come

The coming tribulation is still future as we speak and this time frame parallels the 70th week decreed for Israel which is still pending

 

[Straightshot]

"I agree. It is a city. John makes this very clear. It is Jerusalem"


There are two "great cities" noted in Revelation's unfolding

The great city of the nations of the Gentiles at MBG's core .... this one will be destroyed in one day by Satan's beast in the little horn of Daniel's visions and his 10 other kings [Revelation 14:8; 17:16-18; 18] .... this city [civilization] is enormous with far reaching global influence

Jerusalem .... the Lord's city .... this one is eternal and will continue on [Revelation 11:8]

 

[victorinus]

I agree. It is a city. John makes this very clear. It is Jerusalem.

it has fallen many times but you can still find it -
it has never been famous for trade -
it does not have many waters -
it does not fit

 

[victorinus]

It is futile to attempt to find something in history that fits a future event.

what?

 

[Revealing Times]

how can you say that?
-how will you recognize the fulfillment of prophecy if you don't understand when a city is a city?
-look at chapter 18 and look for the word city
-seven times

The Same way I understand that the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars in Rev. 12 is Israel, the same way I understand that the Seven Headed Beast in Rev. 13 is Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and Revived Rome/AC and his Kings. The Same way that I understand that Stars are Angels. The same way that I understand Locusts in Rev. 9 are Demons.

It is what you call a Metaphor, I explain it in my thread on Revelation in much detail.

 

[Revealing Times]

I agree that the 7 mountains are indeed 7 nations with 7 kings or leaders. My guess would be 7 Muslim nations that surround Israel.

It is explained in Rev. 17 we just have to solve the WHO part, of the Seven Heads, five are Fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece) ONE IS (Rome) the other is YET TO COME (Revived Rome/Anti-Christ and 10 Kings). We understand this by looking at what all of these nations have in common. They all conquered are enslaved Israel at some point in time. Israel was basically no more for 2000 years, then she was reborn in 1948, setting the stage for her to again be conquered by the last Head of the Seven Headed Beast, the Anti-Christ and his 10 Kings.

The Muslim angle is off in all aspects per basically anything, except they try to come against Israel and fail. The whole the Anti-Christ comes from there angle is wrong, the 200 Million Army is not even an Army of men, that angle is wrong. The Kings of the East imho, are from Iran and such places, but they have no 200 Million army. The one (Kings of the East) is the Sixth Vial which is in Rev. 16, the other (200 Million Horsemen) is the Sixth Trumpet, it is in Rev. chapter 9. Two different events. The 10 Kings in league with the Beast will destroy Islam,(All False Religion) when they come after all Religions because after all, you can not be called/worshiped as GOD if you are the Anti-Christ if you allow OTHER GODS to exist.

 

[Straightshot]

The 7 "heads" are the 7 kingdoms of Satan's beast all located in the Middle East

Abaddon has ruled over 5 of these human kingdoms and related king "positions" in the past before the first century .... and he will come out of the abyss to rule over the next 2 during the coming tribulation period .... one after the other

All of the region of his rule are primarily the adherents of Islam

The populations of the past kingdoms are still in the Middle East as we speak .... the ancient kingdoms lost their rule from one to the next, but regain their participation during the coming tribulation period

 

[iamlamad]

Now I see why you have a faulty rendering of Revelation's unfolding .... the first 5 portents do not match any historical events of the past

John's spirit was taken to heaven and into the future to be shown the "things hereafter" and not events of history or even the things present in his day [Revelation 19:1; 4:1]

All of the things "hereafter" are still pending and still to come

The coming tribulation is still future as we speak and this time frame parallels the 70th week decreed for Israel which is still pending

I see your history is lacking. How many world wars started in Europe (part of the 1/4 of the earth). Where was the black plague (part of the 1/4 of the earth)? I found a list of all the wars of Europe in the first thouand years of the church. It was a VERY long list: hardly a year anywhere where there was not a war somewhere. Although I could not find records, i suspect Africa was worse. Speaking of Africa, WHERE have the terrible times of starvation been in our lifetimes?

If you read after many of the "experts" they say the first few seals are parallel to the first part of Matthew 24. I agree with them.

If you will notice, God said He would show John things in the future. There was no ONLY in that sentence. God could have showed John TWO EVENTS of the future, then finished the book with recipes of manna, and not have lied to us. He DID show John many things of the future. But He also showed John events of the past. BELIEVE It, for it is truth.

The best example is 12:1-5 speaking of Jesus' birth.
Another example is chapters 4 & 5, where John got to see Jesus ascend into the throne room after raising from the dead. That was a vision of the past.

 

[iamlamad]

"I agree. It is a city. John makes this very clear. It is Jerusalem"


There are two "great cities" noted in Revelation's unfolding

The great city of the nations of the Gentiles at MBG's core .... this one will be destroyed in one day by Satan's beast in the little horn of Daniel's visions and his 10 other kings [Revelation 14:8; 17:16-18; 18] .... this city [civilization] is enormous with far reaching global influence

Jerusalem .... the Lord's city .... this one is eternal and will continue on [Revelation 11:8]

Jerusalem will continue. But MYSTERY Babylon (Jerusalem as the world center for deception) will be destroyed. NEVER AGAIN will Jerusalem be a harlot city. Both "great cities" are in reference to Jerusalem. But one is a mystery city that is a harlot city. The harlot city will be destroyed. Jerusalem the physical city will be rebuilt, a new temple will be erected, and she will be God's city forever - no more mystery, no more harlotry.

 

[iamlamad]

it has fallen many times but you can still find it -
it has never been famous for trade -
it does not have many waters -
it does not fit

Waters represent people.
It WILL BECOME famous for trade, for when the Beast makes Jerusalem his headquarters, he will do MUCH merchandising, bring billions of dollars worth of goods into Jerusalem. You do know Satan LOVES merchandising?
It DOES fit. Not now, but THEN.

SO MUCH goods and riches will flow into Jerusalem during his time there that many merchants will become rich.

 

[Revealing Times]

I see your history is lacking. How many world wars started in Europe (part of the 1/4 of the earth). Where was the black plague (part of the 1/4 of the earth)? I found a list of all the wars of Europe in the first thouand years of the church. It was a VERY long list: hardly a year anywhere where there was not a war somewhere. Although I could not find records, i suspect Africa was worse. Speaking of Africa, WHERE have the terrible times of starvation been in our lifetimes?

If you read after many of the "experts" they say the first few seals are parallel to the first part of Matthew 24. I agree with them.

The Seals have to happen after the Abomination of Desolation. And we know that is after the Gospel has been preached unto all the world. KEYS !! Are important. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (KEY) 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains { As we see, the Abomination can only come after the Gospel has been preached into all the world, then Israel flees into the Wilderness, just like in Rev. 12:7 and Daniel 12:1-2. In Daniel 12:1-2 and Matthew 24:21 we see that there will be Tribulation like that which has never been seen before or since. THAT HAS TO BE FUTURE, it could not be AD 70. WW1 and WW2 was much worse, along with all the murders by Hitler, Mao, Stalin etc. etc.

The first few seals can not parallel with Matthew 24 until after the Abomination which must come after the Gospel is preached unto all the world. We have to use our KEYS !!

Jerusalem will continue. But MYSTERY Babylon (Jerusalem as the world center for deception) will be destroyed. NEVER AGAIN will Jerusalem be a harlot city. Both "great cities" are in reference to Jerusalem. But one is a mystery city that is a harlot city. The harlot city will be destroyed. Jerusalem the physical city will be rebuilt, a new temple will be erected, and she will be God's city forever - no more mystery, no more harlotry.

There is no Mystery Babylon. The Angel Revealed the Mystery, thus it stopped being a Mystery. COME I WILL SHOW YOU the Mystery of the Beast and the Woman. How can you be many Nations, Tongues and Peoples and be a "City". Just not realistic. Babylon was a City, God is comparing the Wickedness of False Religion (Harlot) and False Gov. (Babylon the Great) with Babylon the EX-CITY.

Waters represent people.
It WILL BECOME famous for trade, for when the Beast makes Jerusalem his headquarters, he will do MUCH merchandising, bring billions of dollars worth of goods into Jerusalem. You do know Satan LOVES merchandising?
It DOES fit. Not now, but THEN.

Babylon is the whole World at enmity with God that is being judged. The Harlot is False Religion.

 

[victorinus]

Waters represent people.

water is not water -
city is not city -
mystery is not mystery -
it can be anything you want it to be -
especially if you put it into the future

 

[iamlamad]

The Seals have to happen after the Abomination of Desolation. And we know that is after the Gospel has been preached unto all the world. KEYS !! Are important. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (KEY) 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains { As we see, the Abomination can only come after the Gospel has been preached into all the world, then Israel flees into the Wilderness, just like in Rev. 12:7 and Daniel 12:1-2. In Daniel 12:1-2 and Matthew 24:21 we see that there will be Tribulation like that which has never been seen before or since. THAT HAS TO BE FUTURE, it could not be AD 70. WW1 and WW2 was much worse, along with all the murders by Hitler, Mao, Stalin etc. etc.

The first few seals can not parallel with Matthew 24 until after the Abomination which must come after the Gospel is preached unto all the world. We have to use our KEYS !!

There is no Mystery Babylon. The Angel Revealed the Mystery, thus it stopped being a Mystery. COME I WILL SHOW YOU the Mystery of the Beast and the Woman. How can you be many Nations, Tongues and Peoples and be a "City". Just not realistic. Babylon was a City, God is comparing the Wickedness of False Religion (Harlot) and False Gov. (Babylon the Great) with Babylon the EX-CITY.

Babylon is the whole World at enmity with God that is being judged. The Harlot is False Religion.

The Seals have to happen after the Abomination of Desolation. WHO SAID? God certainly did not say this. There is no scripture anywhere that even hints of this.

WHEN will the gospel be preached in all the world? Did you not notice in Rev. 14, a MIDPOINT chapter, that angels will take the gospel to every human in their own language so all will know the truth? That is when this scripture will be fulfilled. And the end Jesus was speaking of is the end at the battle of Armageddon. The end of the church age will come over 7 years before then.

Yes, of course the days of great tribulation are future. But the first 5 seals are history. And those that see the abomination will certainly flee as we see in 12:6. But these verses have nothing to do with the Gospel preached around the world. What gave you this idea? The "end" Jesus had in mind was His coming in great power to the battle of Armageddon. The fleeing will be at the midpoint.

The first few seals can not parallel with Matthew 24 until after the Abomination which must come after the Gospel is preached unto all the world

You are all mixed up in your chronology. Read Matthew 24 up to verse 14. These verses with earthquakes, wars pestilence etc are a parallel to the first five seals. And if you look closely at what Jesus said in verse 6, HE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE END (the end is not yet). Neither are the first 5 seals about the end. These are church age events. The abomination (verse 15) comes AFTER all these things that are the beginning of sorrows and the beginning of birth pains.

If it is not still a mystery, tell me why even here on this thread no one agrees? Yes, John did write that the woman was "that great city." But some here think a city refers to false religion around the world! The intent of the Author is that JERUSALEM is "that great city." John told us this is a previous chapter. They are not thinking about how the entire world will be deceived from Jerusalem. By the way, Babylon in Revelation, the wh**e (harlot), Mystery Babylon the great, etc is all speaking of the SAME THING: the city of Jerusalem while the Beast and False prophet are there deceiving the entire world.

 

[victorinus]

If it is not still a mystery, tell me why even here on this thread no one agrees?

now that's good

 

[victorinus]

in my newton thread

newton has some interesting things to say about it being a mystery

 

[Revealing Times]

The Seals have to happen after the Abomination of Desolation. WHO SAID? God certainly did not say this. There is no scripture anywhere that even hints of this.

WHEN will the gospel be preached in all the world? Did you not notice in Rev. 14, a MIDPOINT chapter, that angels will take the gospel to every human in their own language so all will know the truth? That is when this scripture will be fulfilled. And the end Jesus was speaking of is the end at the battle of Armageddon. The end of the church age will come over 7 years before then.

We aren't speaking about the Preaching of the Gospel by the 144,000 or Angels. We are speaking about when the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. You are a bright guy, so I enjoy the conversation, but remember, there is never a time when the Holy Spirit stops teaching us, I change daily from old thoughts I used to have, when the Holy Spirit leads me that way. If a person has beliefs that never change, he isn't adding knowledge.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. { This is speaking of after the Gospel has been preached to all the world, it doesn't mean God will stop preaching, he will send the two-witnesses, the 144,000 and angels, but the Church is in Heaven, having been Raptured, that is why the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, we are back on Israel being center stage for Daniels final week.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (The Church Departs)

As per the Seals being after the Abomination of Desolation, let me try and break that down into scriptural facts. I do not know when you think the Seals began. But from scriptures we can but the mosaic together.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. {{ So we see here in Matthew that the Abomination of Desolation is Satan/Anti-Christ defaming the Temple of God, it happens AFTER the Gospel has been preached unto all the world for a witness. You see God can continue to preach via the 144,00 and two-witnesses, but FIRST everyone must hear the Gospel before the Wrath Starts. When this Abomination happens, Judea are told to flee to the Wilderness. And God says He has to shorten the time (pre planned 3 1/2 years) so hat all of the elect will not perish. THIS IS THE END TIMES. The Anti-Christ goes on the War-path and stars to come against the Saints. Lets see what Daniel says.}}

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. {{ So Michael STANDS UP, at this time of great peril, this time of trouble like has never been seen before or since. At this very time this trouble happens, what else happens my friend ? NOTICE, The Rapture happens in verse 2 at this very same time period (though it is just before Michael casts Satan out) we see those that SLEEP shall arise to everlasting life. That has not happened, I am sure you would agree, and this TIME OF TROUBLE, happens at the time of the Rapture, and the Rapture happens when the Dead in Christ arise, then we who are alive and remain shall be changed in the TWINKLING OF AN EYE !! You see why the Seals can not be before the Abomination of Desolation ? }}

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (42 Months) 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

{{ So by placing these three passages together, we understand that Israel Flees Judea/Jerusalem/Israel at the time of the Abomination of Desolation, we understand that this TIME OF TROUBLE (SEALS) kicks of by the Anti-Christ defiling the Temple then Conquering, then killing and starving many people(s). All of this TROUBLE/TRIBULATION happens at the exact same time as the Rapture, so it could not have already happened years ago, because the Dead are raised, then we which are alive are Raptured also. Rev. 12 tells us that Israel will be protected 42 Months, so we understand that the Abomination of Desolation happens at the 42 month period of the ONE WEEK that is left from Daniels unfulfilled 70 Weeks Decree. The Anti-Christ is the First Seal, causes the second, third and fourth Seals, and murders those under the Alter in the fifth Seal. }}

 

[Straightshot]

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come"


This preaching referred to by the Lord in Matthew 24 is still to come and will take place during the coming tribulation .... the 70th week decreed for Israel

The preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ for the last 2000 years related to His salvation is a different matter

The 144000 Israelites will preach the gospel of the kingdom pointing to His millennial kingdom that will come at the ending of the tribulation period

One the fullness of the Gentiles of the nations has been added to the Lord's true ecclesia, He will turn His focus upon a regathered remnant of Israel in the Middle East and bring a portion under His covenant [Ezekiel 20:33-44] [Romans 11:25-36]

 

[Revealing Times]

You are all mixed up in your chronology. Read Matthew 24 up to verse 14. These verses with earthquakes, wars pestilence etc are a parallel to the first five seals. And if you look closely at what Jesus said in verse 6, HE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE END (the end is not yet). Neither are the first 5 seals about the end. These are church age events. The abomination (verse 15) comes AFTER all these things that are the beginning of sorrows and the beginning of birth pains.

Matthew 24:8 (KEY POINT HERE) 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. { The Greek word used here is odin 5604, it doesn't exactly mean Sorrows, though I guess a woman can be sorrowful during birth, but here is the actual meaning of the Word ODIN 5604 = 1) the pain of childbirth, travail pain, birth pangs....Akin to 3601 a pang or throe, especially of childbirth:—pain, sorrow, travail.


These are called what my friend ? Birth pangs or throes of birth. Meaning that these are signs that the end times are NEARING, just like birth pangs are a sign the Child is nearing to be born. So the "Sorrows" doesn't mean the End Times have started. They are signs the end time is Near, nothing more. We have to use proper translations.

So lets go through this first part of Matthew brother and take it one or two verse at a time.

24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be ? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world ? {{ So Jesus tells the disciples about the Temples future destruction, then the disciples ask Jesus THREE QUESTIONS 1. When shall this happen ? 2. What will be the sign of your coming (back) ? 3. And when will the end of the World (end if the Age) be ? So lets dissect Jesus' answers below. }}

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. {{ So Jesus tells them, take heed there will be many false Christ' coming unto you. No doubt saying they were the real Messiah, since Christ in Greek means Messiah, the were not claiming to be Jesus but the true Messiah. You will hear of wars, BUT THE END IS NOT YET. }}

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. {{ Nations will fight each other, there will be famines, earthquakes, and pestilences, these are the beginning of BIRTH PANGS/THROES, or a Signal that the time is Nearing. So the Time is still not at hand, these are just Signs. So all of these people associate with the Seals are just wrong, TRANSLATIONS have to be correct. It is not Sorrows in essence, it is Birth Pangs. }}

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. {{ Jesus is speaking to them about their personal, future endeavors here in verse 9, most of the disciples were murdered/killed, then he transitions to like a 2000 year period in verses 10-13 and in my opinion tells the disciples what the Church will go through until the end Gets here in VERSE 14, he is telling them many will be offended, or betray the Faith, and hate one another (Catholics vs, Protestants for years HATED EACH OTHER) Many false prophets will arise, well we know know there are many cuckoo puffs out there now, and has always been a few of those throughout the ages no doubt, John Jones deceived many. And because SIN SHALL ABOUND (Getting closer to the end with each verse) many people will become hard hearted and Atheists/Cold Doubters. BUT.....All Christians that ENDURE TO THE END (Of their Lives) the same shall be saved. We have to run the race until the end, we have to endure in the Faith until the end of our lives, through all the turmoil, trials and troubles, we can not turn back to sin, we MUST ENDURE IN THE FAITH. }}

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. {{ So the Clue is the END can not come until the Gospel has went to the Ends of the Earth, TV has made this come to pass, the Gospel has been preached unto all the world. Which means the END can now come, it could not have been the case 40 years ago, but it can be the case today. Jesus continues his teachings, lets look at a few of the other verses in context here.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {{ Jesus tells the Disciples that when the people living in Judea see the Abomination of Desolation spoken by Daniel they need to flee, this Abomination is going to be an Image of the Beast just as Rev. 13 says. And As Daniel 9:27 says when read/TRANSLATED properly. }}

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. {{ We see here that the False Prophet and Anti-Christ or fake Christ is being spoke of here. This is when the Great Tribulation happens, at the END TIMES. So we are getting the WHEN THIS WILL HAPPEN HERE !!................First question is answered by Jesus. }}

Second question, what will be the Sign of thy Coming and the third question was when will the end of the Age be. Both questions Jesus answered at the same time, because of course, Jesus Second Coming is the End of the Age.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

{{{ So Jesus answers by Saying I will come in the Clouds, out of the East, do not believe ANY LIE by any False Prophet or False Christ/Messiah. I will come (WITH US SAINTS) Immediately after the Tribulation when he Sun and Moon is Darkened (By all the Smoke of the Plagues no doubt) then shall the people of the Earth see Jesus coming back, and that is the End of the Age. }}}

Matthew 1-13 has nothing to do with the Tribulation nor the Seals.

 

[Straightshot]

The birth pangs for Israel have not yet started ..... but coming

Not until the 70th week decreed for the nation will they come [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 20:33-44;Daniel 12:1-4; Zechariah 13; 14; 15; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-36]

 

[Revealing Times]

The birth pangs for Israel have not yet started ..... but coming

Not until the 70th week decreed for the nation will they come [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 20:33-44;Daniel 12:1-4; Zechariah 13; 14; 15; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-36]

I kind of agree, but I think they have barley started. A child is not seen until its here, but the effects or pain of birth is felt immediately before the birth, so we do see some of the pangs of the coming Anti-Christ, like world trade, gays being allowed to marry, Christians being reviled, etc. etc. I think the Anti-Christ is about 40-50 today and is just waiting to come to power. But the pangs do not last long, so either way, its here or very close.