the apocalypse

[victorinus]

the king of the south
-
mohammed
fatimah - his daughter
ali - her husband - father of shia islam
-
the king of the north
-
muawiyah - the father of sunni islam
abdallah ibn sad - raiser of taxes
abd al-malik ibn marwan - father of the dome of the rock
-
back to daniel
back to the apocalypse

 

[victorinus]

according to isaac newton you can't talk about the apocalypse without looking at daniel

 

[Razare]

babylon the great - constantinople
-
no other city has all these characteristics
...
-seven hills
...

In revelation, I am leaning toward non-literal 7 hills.

With Revelation, it is a dance done between symbolic and literal, and as readers we have to navigate that dance correctly. It's also important to know all symbolism in the bible, always references something which is totally real spiritually or physically. The symbolism just serves as a way to describe a real thing.

For example, we might think "many waters" refers to oceans:
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. - Revelation 17:1

But later we learn what the many waters are:

Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. - Revelation 17:15

So then, if water is a non-literal water, referencing the nations of the world then:

This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. - Revelation 17:19

But just like the water she was sitting on, these hills are non-literal hills but symbolic hills. The hills are very likely referencing symbolic hills found throughout the OT:

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Furthermore, there were 7 Nations in the Promise land, representing the kingdoms of darkness:

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations--the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you-- - Deuteronomy 7:1

I have never studied it, but I wager we would learn each nation had one of those 7 sins associated with it.

So back to Revelation ... when it says:

The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. - Revelation 6:14


It's not talking literal mountains or islands. It's symbolic mountains and islands, just like the waters are symbolic, and the hills are symbolic.

"Mystery Babylon" is really not a place, but symbolic of a world system of behavior and governance.

 

[victorinus]

In revelation, I am leaning toward non-literal 7 hills.

But later we learn what the many waters are:

newton can help us out here with double mystical sense
with this we learn the seven heads not only point to the seven hills of rome but also to the seven dynasties of it -
same with many waters -
try to be the world leader in trade without many waters and many people and many ships

 

[Straightshot]

"the king of the south
-
mohammed
fatimah - his daughter
ali - her husband - father of shia islam
-
the king of the north
-
muawiyah - the father of sunni islam
abdallah ibn sad - raiser of taxes
abd al-malik ibn marwan - father of the dome of the rock"


Mohammed is dead son .... we are talking about the time of the end on this forum

And the raiser of taxes in the north was Philopater

The next king of the north was Antiochus IV [Daniel 11:21-35]

The next king of the northern Middle East still to come is the little horn of [Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7]

 

[Straightshot]

"the seven heads not only point to the seven hills of rome but also to the seven dynasties of it -
same with many waters -
try to be the world leader in trade without many waters and many people and many ships"


The beast's 7 heads are his 7 kingdoms assigned by Satan in the Middle East

5 have fallen, are historical today .... and there are 2 more still pending, one after the other

It is obvious that these kingdoms are not the 7 hills of Rome or the 7 dynasties of the same

 

[victorinus]

Mohammed is dead son .... we are talking about the time of the end on this forum

that is the difference between a futurist and a historicist

 

[victorinus]

It is obvious that these kingdoms are not the 7 hills of Rome or the 7 dynasties of the same

newton thought they were
-and-
I'm with him

 

[Straightshot]

"that is the difference between a futurist and a historicist"


No it is the truth

And this is why Newton was a flawed interpreter and false prophet .... to say of the 5 hills of Rome have fallen, one is, and the other is yet to come makes no sense

Stuffing unfulfilled prophecy into past historical events does not work

 

[victorinus]

Stuffing unfulfilled prophecy into past historical events does not work

it does
-if-
you have a reasonable interpretation
-and-
you look at history

 

[Straightshot]

However, your view attempts to fit future prophecy into past historical events

This simply fails by comparison .... prophecy is always 100% perfect

 

[victorinus]

However, your view attempts to fit future prophecy into past historical events

This simply fails by comparison .... prophecy is always 100% perfect

but not your interpretation of it

 

[Straightshot]

Well of course you would say that

The future and the historical renderings of prophecy are like oil and water .... no mixing

Really no need for you and I to have a discussion as I see it

 

[victorinus]

The future and the historical renderings of prophecy are like oil and water .... no mixing

Really no need for you and I to have a discussion as I see it

in the future, pun intended, you should identify your pov

 

[Revealing Times]

the apocalypse
-
666 -
babylon the great - constantinople -
rider of the white horse - constantine -
rider of the red horse - mohammed -
rider of the black horse - marx -
the first beast - the roman empire -
the second beast - islam -
the seven heads - the seven dynasties of the roman empire -
the ten horns - the ten islamic dynasties -
the thousand years - the byzantine empire -
the three johns - john the baptist and two more johns -
the two witnesses - church and state -
-
the timeline of the apocalypse
-
daniel
-
this is twenty years of research -
will discuss the results -
will present the books used -
looking forward to discussing all aspects of the apocalypse -
I chose not to use the Historicist Only tag because I want to include all in this dialogue

the apocalypse
-
666 = The number of a man
Babylon the Great = The whole World Being Judged/The Last Gov. System
Rider of the White horse = The Anti-Christ Conquering after feigning peace.
Rider of the Red horse = The Anti-Christ bringing War and Destruction upon the World
Rider of the Black horse = The Anti-Christ bringing forth Famine (Pale Green Horse is Death and Hell)
The first beast = Babylon
The Second beast = Persia
The Seven heads = Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and Revived Rome via the 10 Horns and the A.C.
The Ten horns = 10 Nations in Europe that confederate to give their power to the Beast (Italy and Greece are two)
The Thousand years = Jesus Christs reign
The Johns = ?
The Two Witnesses = Elijah and another Patriarch no doubt.

=========================
babylon the great - constantinople
-
no other city has all these characteristics
-mystery
-many waters
-trade
-seven hills
-is fallen, is fallen
-found no more
==========================

It is not a City.

It is not a Mystery, Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The Angel told us the Mystery of the Beast (Egypt, Assyria Babylon Etc.) and of the Woman (Many Nations, Tongues and Peoples).

The Seven Mountains are Seven Rulers. It is not hills. Babylon of course will fall, the world System Falls, and Jesus takes over. The whole world trades. The Many waters is who the Harlot is, Nations, peoples and Tongues/False Religion.

 

[victorinus]

It is not a City.

-how can you say that?
-how will you recognize the fulfillment of prophecy if you don't understand when a city is a city?
-look at chapter 18 and look for the word city
-seven times

 

[iamlamad]

In revelation, I am leaning toward non-literal 7 hills.

With Revelation, it is a dance done between symbolic and literal, and as readers we have to navigate that dance correctly. It's also important to know all symbolism in the bible, always references something which is totally real spiritually or physically. The symbolism just serves as a way to describe a real thing.

For example, we might think "many waters" refers to oceans:
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. - Revelation 17:1

But later we learn what the many waters are:

Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. - Revelation 17:15

So then, if water is a non-literal water, referencing the nations of the world then:

This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. - Revelation 17:19

But just like the water she was sitting on, these hills are non-literal hills but symbolic hills. The hills are very likely referencing symbolic hills found throughout the OT:

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Furthermore, there were 7 Nations in the Promise land, representing the kingdoms of darkness:

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations--the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you-- - Deuteronomy 7:1

I have never studied it, but I wager we would learn each nation had one of those 7 sins associated with it.

So back to Revelation ... when it says:

The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. - Revelation 6:14


It's not talking literal mountains or islands. It's symbolic mountains and islands, just like the waters are symbolic, and the hills are symbolic.

"Mystery Babylon" is really not a place, but symbolic of a world system of behavior and governance.

I disagree. "Mystery Babylon" is a city. John tells us this. But if we believe John, he also tells us this great city is JERUSALEM.

Of course it should be called "Babylon" because the greatest deception ever to come on earth will come from Jerusalem, as the Beast of Revelation 13 and the False Prophet deceive the entire world from this city.

 

[iamlamad]

-how can you say that?
-how will you recognize the fulfillment of prophecy if you don't understand when a city is a city?
-look at chapter 18 and look for the word city
-seven times

I agree. It is a city. John makes this very clear. It is Jerusalem.

 

[iamlamad]

the apocalypse
-
666 = The number of a man
Babylon the Great = The whole World Being Judged/The Last Gov. System
Rider of the White horse = The Anti-Christ Conquering after feigning peace.
Rider of the Red horse = The Anti-Christ bringing War and Destruction upon the World
Rider of the Black horse = The Anti-Christ bringing forth Famine (Pale Green Horse is Death and Hell)
The first beast = Babylon
The Second beast = Persia
The Seven heads = Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and Revived Rome via the 10 Horns and the A.C.
The Ten horns = 10 Nations in Europe that confederate to give their power to the Beast (Italy and Greece are two)
The Thousand years = Jesus Christs reign
The Johns = ?
The Two Witnesses = Elijah and another Patriarch no doubt.

=========================
babylon the great - constantinople
-
no other city has all these characteristics
-mystery
-many waters
-trade
-seven hills
-is fallen, is fallen
-found no more
==========================

It is not a City.

It is not a Mystery, Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The Angel told us the Mystery of the Beast (Egypt, Assyria Babylon Etc.) and of the Woman (Many Nations, Tongues and Peoples).

The Seven Mountains are Seven Rulers. It is not hills. Babylon of course will fall, the world System Falls, and Jesus takes over. The whole world trades. The Many waters is who the Harlot is, Nations, peoples and Tongues/False Religion.

I agree that the 7 mountains are indeed 7 nations with 7 kings or leaders. My guess would be 7 Muslim nations that surround Israel.

 

[iamlamad]

it does
-if-
you have a reasonable interpretation
-and-
you look at history

If it is history, of course it will fit. The first 5 seals of Rev. 6 for example, are history. Seal 6 is future, and there has been NO earthquake in history that fits. Same with all 7 trumpets and all 7 vials. It is futile to attempt to find something in history that fits a future event.