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The Soul - is there proof?

KCfromNC

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No, it is not that reason can't arise from simple logical operations, it is that Reason cannot arise from unreason.

Why is Reason capitalized here? Is it somehow different from reason? And in any case, what evidence do you have for this claim?

As the example of programmes that learn human language points to, the programme learns by mimickry and pattern recognision. In this way it can respond in kind, but it is not making logical deductions but following patterns and nor can it be said it truly 'understands language'.

Do you have a quantitative test to determine if a given machine "truly" understands language?

So while it appears to be reasoning, the fact is that this cannot be shown to be the case

Same question for distinguishing between true reasoning and the appearance of it.

So in the example of emergent systems, the system creates ideas that appear logical but as they are derived from non-logical propositions, they aren't.

You're mixing up the origin of the system doing the reasoning and the inputs to that system. No to mention that it argues that an idea is logical or not based on the mental health of the person who thought it up. That's going to make it tough to evaluate the logic of a statement made a hundred years ago. Luckily back here in reality we have tools for evaluating the logic of statements without requiring their author to have a psychological exam.

And doesn't your argument also imply that if a god poofed a perfectly working computer into existence through extra-logical means that we'd have to pretend that computer's results were always illogical no matter how much they lined up with the ones we built using our knowledge of logic and reason? I don't think this particular argument is going where you hope it will.
 
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expos4ever

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They don't; unaided, they make rough approximations that are 'good enough' where it really counts.
I don't think you understood my point (perhaps that was partly my fault). From reading this thread, I would bet that many of us are not understanding each other. To be fair to ourselves, the issues here are complex and it is a real challenge to express our respective positions in a manner comprehensible to others.
 
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expos4ever

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They don't; unaided, they make rough approximations that are 'good enough' where it really counts......
As per my last post, we are talking about different things.

I have no issue with anything you posted. Consider an analogy to a computer program. Even though the computer program as executed on its hardware ultimately obeys all the unchanging laws of physics, the computer program can "learn on the fly" and change its behavior over time. I have no issue with this at all. So in case you are thinking I do not "get" how flexible, dynamic behavior can be manifested by systems in a universe governed by static laws, that is not what interests me.

What interests me is the mechanism that clearly appears to "drive" the human brain - both in evolutionary time and in "day-to-day" time - to think thoughts which increasingly match what is factually true about the world.

In the case of the computer program, it is clearly the programmer who functions as this mechanism. Do you not agree that the program has to be designed to learn? Note that I am not suggesting that the programmer fully specifies the complete set of behaviours that the program will manifest as it learns. But surely s/he must design the software so that:

1. It can modify its own response to a particular input;
2. This modification will be in the direction of "fitness for task" - the response of the program to a particular input does not simply change, it gets "better" in some sense that is "programmed in" by the designer.

Returning to human beings: If we adopt a pure "naturalist" worldview - no god(s) or magic - the only mechanism I can see that is a candidate for the mechanism at issue is evolution by natural selection. More later, hopefully.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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No, it is not that reason can't arise from simple logical operations, it is that Reason cannot arise from unreason.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'unreason', but it sounds like argument from assertion or definition...

As I understand it, reasoning is a cognitive process by which a conclusion may be inferred from an assortment of evidence (information) or from statements of principles.

(if you have a different understanding of it, please provide it); what makes you think that this cannot arise from 'unreason' (I'm assuming you mean elements that, individually, don't reason)?

If you think reasoning is qualitatively different from other information processing, please explain why, i.e. how is it different?

As the example of programmes that learn human language points to, the programme learns by mimickry and pattern recognision. In this way it can respond in kind, but it is not making logical deductions but following patterns
I take it you don't think this is how a baby leanrs language?

... nor can it be said it truly 'understands language'.
What do you mean by this? does a baby that has just learned to form simple sentences, 'truly understand language'? If not, at what point does this occur?

So in the example of emergent systems, the system creates ideas that appear logical but as they are derived from non-logical propositions, they aren't.
Surely an idea either is logical or is not logical? What would be an example of an idea that sounds logical, but isn't? Can an idea be either logical or illogical depending on how it is arrived at?

The question of specific deficits associated with specific injuries changes nothing to this. It in fact argues that Reason does not exist, not that it does - as all would therefore be based on non-logical neuronal depolarisation.
Again, I'd query your definition of 'reason'.

... no trauma is associated with loss of logical deduction in entirety, it usually just slows the process down and sometimes introduces delusion and misapprehension into the mix.
There are many kinds of cognitive deficit in this area, including loss of understanding of cause and effect, inability to make logical inferences, and inability to apply general propositions to specific cases (lack of deductive capability). These are typically the result of damage to the right hemisphere (e.g. stroke). They can be very specific and are not always associated with more generalised cognitive problems.

I agree the brain has a significant and important part to play in our thoughts and reasoning, I never said otherwise, I just don't think it is fully sufficient in and off itself to account for it.
What makes you think so? - I can understand that you might say that of the nature of consciousness, which still awaits comprehensive explanation.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I don't think you understood my point (perhaps that was partly my fault). From reading this thread, I would bet that many of us are not understanding each other. To be fair to ourselves, the issues here are complex and it is a real challenge to express our respective positions in a manner comprehensible to others.
Yes, you may be right.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... Do you not agree that the program has to be designed to learn?
Yes.

Returning to human beings: If we adopt a pure "naturalist" worldview - no god(s) or magic - the only mechanism I can see that is a candidate for the mechanism at issue is evolution by natural selection. More later, hopefully.
Yes; evolution can be seen as a designer (as Dennet would say).
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Why is Reason capitalized here? Is it somehow different from reason? And in any case, what evidence do you have for this claim?


Same question for distinguishing between true reasoning and the appearance of it.
I explained the position in my earlier posts, most notably where I made formal propositions in response to Frumious Bandersnatch.

Reason is capitalised to show I am referring to the abstract noun and concept and not the passive noun or verb.

Do you have a quantitative test to determine if a given machine "truly" understands language?
Nope, which is why I don't think the earlier argument made by others of 'learning machines' is valid. The closest perhaps is a Turing test which again does not really prove or show anything.





You're mixing up the origin of the system doing the reasoning and the inputs to that system. No to mention that it argues that an idea is logical or not based on the mental health of the person who thought it up. That's going to make it tough to evaluate the logic of a statement made a hundred years ago.
Nope, irrelevant what the mental health of the person is for my argument. I was merely illustrating when something is not logical by using the example.
Nor am I mixing up inputs or origins of a system, for if the argument is that our reasoning runs on brain physiology, then the input and origin are essentially the same within the argument as both must not be irrational. Again though, just an illustration to try and explain the concept. Perhaps go back a few posts to my formal propositions.
Luckily back here in reality we have tools for evaluating the logic of statements without requiring their author to have a psychological exam.
Really? What? For we cannot prove rationality unequivocally without examing all propositions from the axiomatic upwards.

And doesn't your argument also imply that if a god poofed a perfectly working computer into existence through extra-logical means that we'd have to pretend that computer's results were always illogical no matter how much they lined up with the ones we built using our knowledge of logic and reason? I don't think this particular argument is going where you hope it will.
If a divine being poofed in a computer, it would change nothing whatsoever to the argument. I believe I am failing miserably to try and explain this to you if you think this.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'unreason', but it sounds like argument from assertion or definition...

As I understand it, reasoning is a cognitive process by which a conclusion may be inferred from an assortment of evidence (information) or from statements of principles.

(if you have a different understanding of it, please provide it); what makes you think that this cannot arise from 'unreason' (I'm assuming you mean elements that, individually, don't reason)?
My definition of Reason is essentially similar, except that for Reason to be valid it must be based on Axiomatic statements initially and further propositions follow rationally, ie A therefore B or B on account of A. Then A therefore B therefore C etc.

If you think reasoning is qualitatively different from other information processing, please explain why, i.e. how is it different?
Reason must be rationally inferred or it is no longer valid. A system of information processing can be based on irrational statements, such as a madman interpreting a streetlamp as an alien spaceship or a computer programme interpreting on or off circuits. These do not necessarily infer consequent propositions, although the latter can certainly be used in a representational method to facilitate reasoning, the information processing is not Reason per se.

I tried to explain it earlier with formal propositions to you, if you wouldn't mind taking a gander at that post again?

I take it you don't think this is how a baby leanrs language?

What do you mean by this? does a baby that has just learned to form simple sentences, 'truly understand language'? If not, at what point does this occur?
This was merely an illustration. This is probably how babies initially learn language. Later however, rational thought steps in when people figure out the meanings of unfamiliar words from context or coin new words or use inventive language or transform nouns into verbs.


Surely an idea either is logical or is not logical? What would be an example of an idea that sounds logical, but isn't? Can an idea be either logical or illogical depending on how it is arrived at?

Again, I'd query your definition of 'reason'.
Yes an idea is logical or it isn't. As I explained, someone being scared of a tiger is logical. But if he is scared of a tiger ultimately because he believes alien souls inhabit it, then it is not logical, but taken to be logical if his full reasoning, the full panoply of propositions, was not investigated.
Only if all propositions are rational and logical, can something be said to be so. If a 5 page proof of a theorum is done which is impeccable except its first line says 1=0, then the whole construct was irrational.

There are many kinds of cognitive deficit in this area, including loss of understanding of cause and effect, inability to make logical inferences, and inability to apply general propositions to specific cases (lack of deductive capability). These are typically the result of damage to the right hemisphere (e.g. stroke). They can be very specific and are not always associated with more generalised cognitive problems.

What makes you think so? - I can understand that you might say that of the nature of consciousness, which still awaits comprehensive explanation.
We cannot even show how neuronal activity in Wernicke's area can make us understand the written word. We assume it does, but we cannot point to a mechanism whereby neuron depolarisation bequeths us understanding. It is clear that language processing lies here, for it disappears if damaged, but we cannot say it is due to neural networks depolarising in a certain way or not.
An analogy perhaps is like looking at a map of a city and knowing that sick people go to a hospital and come out better, but having no idea what occurs within it. A 'general area does this' is not the same as knowing that that function truly resides there, like examples such as expressive aphasias point to.
The brain requires quite a lot of comprehensive explanation.

The cases are not as clear cut as you present in anyway. Maybe one or two case studies exist, but you will see these have not been repeatable in most cases. If I am wrong and you have access to such studies, please supply them, as I would be very interested. I am an Anaesthetist by trade, so knocking out pain pathways in nerves is my daily grind, and I have not seen any EBM studies that have in any comprehensive way shown how reasoning or thought can arise from nerve function nor how such things are tied to very narrow confines of sulci or structure. Mostly it is just 'this area is damaged and this was lost in this specific patient' with inferences made that range from primary centres, to pathways, to para-functional areas thus being responsible.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I don't think you understood my point (perhaps that was partly my fault). From reading this thread, I would bet that many of us are not understanding each other. To be fair to ourselves, the issues here are complex and it is a real challenge to express our respective positions in a manner comprehensible to others.
I agree wholeheartedly. I feel we are all talking past each other.
 
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Ana the Ist

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As I showed you, this type of thinking, of assuming another's thought process, is central to western thought. As this is a popular piece, Lewis did it in a popular manner instead of formally, but it is well within the standard intellectual tradition of western civilisation.
So either you are ignorant of Western intellectual tradition and somehow missed all the examples I offered, or you are trying to obfuscate the argument.

I'll freely admit I'm not schooled in any of those philosophers you mentioned...nor could I find any place where they spoke of "assuming the thought processes of a person based on nothing more than two tidbits of knowledge about them" as part of valid argumentation. I'll also admit that I have fairly limited resources (the internet) but I'm relatively confident that Wittgenstein's deconstructionism is a bit more involved than what Lewis put forth in his diatribe.

Nonetheless, this is a rather moot point if you feel that simply assuming a person's thought processes and basing an argument around those assumptions is a valid method of argumentation. Do you?



I have literally explained this ad nauseam in multiple posts. I do think Reason is valid, that's my whole point.
It is up to those who think a rational belief can be inferred from non-rational causes to show how reason can thus be valid, ie why chemical interactions would result in rational thought.

What exactly is the extent of your knowledge of neuropsychology? I was under the impression that all thought, rational or otherwise, was the result of electro-chemical brain processes....do you believe otherwise?

[/QUOTE]
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I'll freely admit I'm not schooled in any of those philosophers you mentioned...nor could I find any place where they spoke of "assuming the thought processes of a person based on nothing more than two tidbits of knowledge about them" as part of valid argumentation. I'll also admit that I have fairly limited resources (the internet) but I'm relatively confident that Wittgenstein's deconstructionism is a bit more involved than what Lewis put forth in his diatribe.

Nonetheless, this is a rather moot point if you feel that simply assuming a person's thought processes and basing an argument around those assumptions is a valid method of argumentation. Do you?
I do consider it a valid method of argumentation if you base your conception on their stated and accepted logical propositions and attempt to backtrack their reasoning to see if it was valid. This is the heart of Derrida's deconstruction. Wittgenstein isn't noted for deconstruction, but language theory and the simplified proposition 'meaning is use'.

As stated before, testing the validity of someone's stated propositions is the heart of Western Philosophy from Socrates onward. Just because you dismissively term it 'assuming the thought process etc.' doesn't change this simple fact.

Again though, this is a popular piece of a few lines and not the full philosophic argument which actually runs to several chapters in his book: Miracles, a preliminary study, which as the name suggests is itself merely a 'preliminary study'.



What exactly is the extent of your knowledge of neuropsychology? I was under the impression that all thought, rational or otherwise, was the result of electro-chemical brain processes....do you believe otherwise?
I am a medical doctor, to be precise an Anaesthetist. I am very well versed in Neurology and neuro-physiology as controlling pain, rendering someone unconscious and controlling intra-cerebral pressure, perfusion pressure and homeostasis is what I do daily when anaesthetising someone.
I also have some experience in Psychiatry having previously worked therein, before moving into Anaesthesia.

There is no conclusive evidence that thought, rational or otherwise, is due to depolarisation of nerve membranes or axonal firing. It is clearly associated with it, but it has never been shown how or if it even is, due to nerve function in and of itself. I am very well versed in this field of research, as it is actually my field of expertise, so if you can find an EBM study that shows otherwise I would love to peruse it.
 
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expos4ever

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It is up to those who think a rational belief can be inferred from non-rational causes to show how reason can thus be valid, ie why chemical interactions would result in rational thought.
What about evolution? To be fair, I may not have read all your posts and you may have already dealt with this. I can imagine how random variations in "chemical interactions" would, when combined with natural selection, drive the human brain in the direction of "rationality". I think, but only think, that you and I may have different views on what constitutes rationality, but that is for another post.

I guess what I am saying is that in exact analogy to how evolution by natural selection can explained the remarkable design of the eye, it can also be used to as a "naturalistic" explanation as to why the thoughts we have are indeed "accurate" or "valid" in the specific sense that these thoughts reflect, at least approximately, "what is true in the world".
 
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expos4ever

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Hi Quid,

It is clear that post 117, and in particular the stuff you quoted, is directly relevant to the question of my last post. I have to say, though, I find the quoted material to be cryptic, I don't suppose you can distill out and present the essence of the argument in those lengthy quotes in post 117?
 
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expos4ever

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As C. S. Lewis pointed out, there's a difference between making an association and making an inference, which requires reason. If I ring a bell every time I put down food for my dog, the dog can make an association between the two things which will be useful, as with your caveman Og. But that does not lead to deducing an inference that the two things are actually related in truth, which they may or may not be. Based on brain chemistry alone, neither Og nor the dog can ever become philosophers or scientists or artists or religious.
Why not?

I guess I think you and others (e.g. Quid) seem to assume there exists this thing called "reason" which is something fundamentally different from the association a dog makes when you ring a bell. Are you saying that while we can imagine how evolution would produce brains capable of thinking "useful" thoughts (e.g. the thought "run" when a saber-tooth tiger is seen) but that evolution cannot explain how a caveman could develop a mental model of the world that embodies thoughts like "I need to run away because the tiger wants to eat me and death is a bad thing"?

I certainly agree that such thoughts are of a different type than the mere thought "I must run if I see a saber-tooth tiger". So I can at least see that the "higher" order thought (last sentence of preceding para) indeed is not immediately obviously understandable as being something evolution could produce.

My gut tells me that evolution probably can explain such a thought, but I have to (irony of ironies) think about this some more.
 
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KCfromNC

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I explained the position in my earlier posts, most notably where I made formal propositions in response to Frumious Bandersnatch.

I'm still not sure how the idea that reason can't come from unreason has anything to do with the impossibility of natural processes producing thought.

Nope, which is why I don't think the earlier argument made by others of 'learning machines' is valid. The closest perhaps is a Turing test which again does not really prove or show anything.

Sounds like a really fuzzy and pointless objection to whatever it was supposed to be objecting to.

Nope, irrelevant what the mental health of the person is for my argument.
I'd be more convinced if you did more than assert you were right here.


Nor am I mixing up inputs or origins of a system, for if the argument is that our reasoning runs on brain physiology, then the input and origin are essentially the same

I'd be more convinced if you did more than assert you were right here.

Really? What? For we cannot prove rationality unequivocally without examing all propositions from the axiomatic upwards.

We can't prove anything unequivocally in any case. At least people who think that brains are natural don't have to worry about magical all-powerful beings changing the rules on a whim.

If a divine being poofed in a computer, it would change nothing whatsoever to the argument. I believe I am failing miserably to try and explain this to you if you think this.

Yeah. You might have more luck if you actually tried to do something other than just asserting that I'm wrong.
 
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KCfromNC

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There is no conclusive evidence that thought, rational or otherwise, is due to depolarisation of nerve membranes or axonal firing. It is clearly associated with it, but it has never been shown how or if it even is, due to nerve function in and of itself.

Conclusive evidence? Seems like weasel words to me. Has there every been a case of thought without an associated physical brain? Don't physical changes in that brain lead to changes in the ability to and quality of thought? Is there anything non-physical which has ever been observed to cause thought?

Sure, you can play hyper-skeptic all you want. But at some point you end up like a person claiming that digestion is just correlated with the digestive tract rather than being a product of it.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Reason must be rationally inferred or it is no longer valid.
That seems somewhat tautological - reasoning is how rational arguments are made.

A system of information processing can be based on irrational statements, such as a madman interpreting a streetlamp as an alien spaceship or a computer programme interpreting on or off circuits. These do not necessarily infer consequent propositions, although the latter can certainly be used in a representational method to facilitate reasoning, the information processing is not Reason per se.
It seems to me that reasoning is effectively making conclusions from a valid argument; regardless of the truth of the premises, if the conclusion is reached through valid argument, it has been reasoned. If the premises are true, the argument will be sound and the reasoned conclusion will be true. If one or more premises are false, the argument will not be sound and the reasoned conclusion will be false although correctly reasoned. In other words, in both cases, reason is used to argue correctly given the premises, but the conclusion will only certainly be true if the premises are true.

I tried to explain it earlier with formal propositions to you, if you wouldn't mind taking a gander at that post again?
Yes, I don't agree with your first (compound) premise. I agree that reasoning requires insight or understanding of the logical relations between the premises - that's how a valid argument is constructed; but I don't agree that neurons firing in the head cannot be the underlying cause of insight or understanding. It may turn on how one defines insight or understanding, and/or what kind of information processor can achieve them. But I also think there's an implicit appeal to incredulity in phrases like, "neurons firing in the head". But then, who would believe transistors switching in microchips could beat the world's best human competitors at the verbal quiz game 'Jeopardy'? Who would imagine that a simple static grid of cells that can be black or white ('on' or 'off') depending on the on/off states of neighboring cells (i.e. Conway's Game of Life cellular automaton) could emulate a computer (universal Turing machine), or make a self-replicating structure, or emulate itself? The interactions of simple parts can give rise to exceedingly complex behaviours.

'Neurons firing in the head' produce a range of informational structures, from content-addressable storage (memory) and associative mapping of that storage, to inductive and deductive logic processing, that can be used to facilitate understanding and insight. High-level systems such as those involving the self and language understanding, are composed of subsystems, and those of smaller subsystems, and so-on to the neuronal level. In the brain the hierarchy is not rigid - subsystems are shared and cross-connected, and there are competing 'opponent' systems down to the individual neurons.

...someone being scared of a tiger is logical. But if he is scared of a tiger ultimately because he believes alien souls inhabit it, then it is not logical..
No, it's quite logical to be scared of a tiger if you think it's inhabited by alien souls and you're afraid of alien souls; it's the premises that are false. It's also quite rational to scared, given that premise (i.e. that belief). It's the belief that's irrational, not the reasoning based on it.

... but taken to be logical if his full reasoning, the full panoply of propositions, was not investigated.
It's not the truth or falsity of the premises that make an argument logical (valid). When true, they make a valid argument sound.

We cannot even show how neuronal activity in Wernicke's area can make us understand the written word. We assume it does, but we cannot point to a mechanism whereby neuron depolarisation bequeths us understanding. It is clear that language processing lies here, for it disappears if damaged, but we cannot say it is due to neural networks depolarising in a certain way or not.
Last I heard, Wernicke's area is mainly involved in the phonetic and syntactic aspects of language, recognition and parsing; the full understanding of meaning is distributed across the cortex, as one might expect.

The brain requires quite a lot of comprehensive explanation.
A lot of work has already been done - parts of some systems have been comprehensively explained (e.g. parts of the visual system), and others functionally mapped in considerable detail. Sure, there's a lot more to do than has yet been done, but with in excess of 80 billion components, it's a complex system.

The cases are not as clear cut as you present in anyway. Maybe one or two case studies exist, but you will see these have not been repeatable in most cases. If I am wrong and you have access to such studies, please supply them, as I would be very interested.
I don't have links for them, although they're probably online - I learned of them from books (e.g. by V.S. Ramachandran) and conferences. One example of a very specific deficit was a man who had a stroke and ceased to be able to recognise items. He couldn't recognise himself or anyone he knew, and he couldn't recognise objects, although he knew what type of objects they were and could describe them in detail. For example, when shown a carrot, he knew it was a vegetable, and described it accurately, but he didn't know what vegetable it was; on the other hand he could also tell you all about carrots, their appearance, growth, use, etc. When asked to draw a selection of flowers, he made drawings labelled 'rose', 'tulip', 'daffodil', etc, but he drew imaginary flower shapes, nothing like the real thing, and yet he could accurately describe the features of the real flowers. Then there's Capgras' syndrome, where someone thinks their partner has been replaced by an identical imposter; believed to be due to damage to communication between the recognition & discrimination centre in the fusiform gyrus and the emotional limbic system (the amygdala). Another oddly specific one is 'Telephone syndrome', where individuals are in an apparently minimally conscious state, showing sleep/wake cycles and eye tracking, but unresponsive and uncommunicative - until they're given a phone call, when they suddenly become fully conscious, alert, and normally communicative, only to subside back to unresponsiveness afterwards, even to the same person that called them. Another is paralysis denial, where the individual is paralysed in some way, but denies it and attempts tasks requiring the paralysed limb, claiming success, or making unrelated excuses, when they fail dismally; there's a disconnect between their physical state and their brain's body map, making them unaware of the paralysis and unable to learn of it. Similarly, there's hemispherical neglect, where the left or right half of the person's perceptual experience is absent (i.e. half their perceptual world), although all the perceptual pathways are intact.
 
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expos4ever

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I was just reading from what I am confident is a credible source: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Apparently one of the biggest "over-steps" in thinking of the mind as a computing system (I intentionally avoid the phrase "computer" for a reason that will become clear in about a second) is the assumption that if the mind is a computing system it must be programmable like a computer is programmable. Apparently this is not the case and least some experts conceive of the mind as a computing system that is not "programmable". I suspect that at least some of you in this discussion can elaborate how "mind as computing system" can be "tuned" by purely naturalistic means other than those that would be defined as "programming". If any of you think you can do this, please take a shot (or point me to a post where you believe you have addressed this question). I also do not have a nuanced understanding of the concept of "programming" - what this notion really cashes out to. Again, if anyone has thoughts.....

For myself: While I cannot immediately intuit how a computing system's behaviour can be tuned - solely by natural processes - without being "programmed", I suspect that it can. In this respect, I suspect many of us are, as the article implies, default to the programmable computer as our model for the mind and, in so doing, go one step "too far" in assuming that the mind must be programmable.

Of course, and to return to the topic, I assume that resolution of the question I am raising in this post is relevant to the larger topic of this thread.
 
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