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The Soul - is there proof?

Quid est Veritas?

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I can see that we're still talking about this. I'm not focusing on the mind-reading fallacy of his argument to distract from his main point, it's entirely central to his main point. He's making assumptions about the way people think and then claiming that "you should think this way...not that way." Had he made his point without the assumptions of mind reading...I wouldn't be bringing it up.

You're the one who quoted him, I'm sure that you can go back and see all the points in which he's basically mind reading...as well as time-traveling and mind reading...the thoughts of people whom he doesn't understand the thought processes of. It's extremely apparent in his discussion of people who lived in Jesus's time, he's assuming their entire thought process without even an inkling to justify his assumptions.

Had he simply said, "you shouldn't just rule out the supernatural because it defies the laws of the natural world" we would have something to discuss...but instead he chose to dress it up in a myriad of fallacies so that he can give his audience a verbal pat on the head as if they've done well for not being skeptical.
As I showed you, this type of thinking, of assuming another's thought process, is central to western thought. As this is a popular piece, Lewis did it in a popular manner instead of formally, but it is well within the standard intellectual tradition of western civilisation.
So either you are ignorant of Western intellectual tradition and somehow missed all the examples I offered, or you are trying to obfuscate the argument.


As for thinking and reason...by what process did you arrive at the position that Reason itself isn't valid or correct?
I have literally explained this ad nauseam in multiple posts. I do think Reason is valid, that's my whole point.
It is up to those who think a rational belief can be inferred from non-rational causes to show how reason can thus be valid, ie why chemical interactions would result in rational thought.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Ya I don't, chaos theories man. Now that's scary.

You finding things "scary" or "comfortable", has no relevance to the true nature of reality.

It's reasonable to those that seek.

You can go on making empty statements like this, but it won't change the fact that not having a shred of evidence, is a good reason to not accept the claim as correct.

Scientific theories.

Huh? Still not getting it. How does saying "scientific theories" relate to the statement "There's many things we don't know even though we have evidence to show we know"???


KNOWN BROTHER :)

And again with the empty and meaningless one liners....
No, if something is unkown, then it isn't known. Derp.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Please read my posts, already discussed.



Never said it was completely random. This is your frankly ludicrous inference as I repeatedly was talking of reasoning, which by nature can't be random. I can only take it that you are attempting your habitual obfuscation.



Please read my posts. I have given multiple reasons. I see no reason to repeat myself because of feigned ignorance.



There is a difference between Reason, Inference, Deduction, Inductive reasoning etc. but as you are obviously not even seriously considering anything, I am not going to waste my effort explaining this.



Now please stop using terms you have no idea what they mean. You continually embarrass yourself. You did it before with Occam's razor and now you are repeating it with a priori.

A priori does not mean a preconceived notion or idea held prior to an argument.
A priori beliefs are beliefs held on account of reasoning and independant of experience. So mathematics is an a priori belief system, tautologies like all unemployed persons have no job, ontological proofs or deductions from reason are all a priori.
The idea that there is no soul for instance, is an a priori belief derived from the assumption of Naturalistic Materialism as it cannot be proven that no soul exists definitively.

So please in future stick to concepts which you know the meaning of or if you think you want to use a term, please look it up.

When you are done complaining about my lack of complete mastery of english, wich isn't my primary language, and are ready to actually address the points being raised, of which I am absolutely certain that you understood them, I'll be read to respond.

Until that time, don't waste your time.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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When you are done complaining about my lack of complete mastery of english, wich isn't my primary language, and are ready to actually address the points being raised, of which I am absolutely certain that you understood them, I'll be read to respond.

Until that time, don't waste your time.
I was not complaining of your lack of mastery of English, but your use of a Latin philosophy term incorrectly, as you did with Occam's razor previously.
Besides, English isn't my first language either.

All I saw were sentences pulled out of context and the complete feigned ignorance of the context out of which I was writing as well as my other posts.

So I will address your points when you actually raise one. I see no reason to respond to disingenuous ones.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I most certainly did not and I showed you how I did not.

Your reluctance to admit when you are in error is not flattering.
? Are you serious? You did nothing of the sort.

Let me show you from the wikipedia article you erroneously referenced last time, without it seems reading it.

The principle can be interpreted as stating Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

In science, Occam's razor is used as a heuristic technique (discovery tool) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models, rather than as an arbiter between published models.[1][2] In the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle oflogic or a scientific result; the preference for simplicity in the scientific method is based on the falsifiabilitycriterion. For each accepted explanation of a phenomenon, there may be an extremely large, perhaps even incomprehensible, number of possible and more complex alternatives, because one can always burden failing explanations with ad hoc hypotheses to prevent them from being falsified; therefore, simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more testable

Occam's razor is not an embargo against the positing of any kind of entity, or a recommendation of the simplest theory come what may.
Do you understand now? Please look up any philosophic concept you aren't familiar with before you attempt to use it. I hope you will use Occam's razor and a priori correctly in future at least.
 
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KCfromNC

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The implication is that no body of knowledge as such would exist. Mathematics, Physics, Biology etc. would therefore all fall in this category as well.

Who is claiming philosophy or theology has a body of knowledge about reality? And why would that impact areas of study which do correlate with reality?

What? One of the weirdest non-sequitors I have ever come accross.

How? You'd think that if the author really believed that he had a more reliable way to access truth he'd be using it to communicate rather than relying on something he's claiming is unreliable.

You miss the point entirely.
In what way? Being pragmatic sidesteps a lot of non-problems manufactured by bored philosophers.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Who is claiming philosophy or theology has a body of knowledge about reality? And why would that impact areas of study which do correlate with reality?



How? You'd think that if the author really believed that he had a more reliable way to access truth he'd be using it to communicate rather than relying on something he's claiming is unreliable.


In what way? Being pragmatic sidesteps a lot of non-problems manufactured by bored philosophers.
You clearly did not read or grossly misunderstood what he had said. But to be fair, you never quoted the first part if the piece:

"The Naturalist might say, ‘Well, perhaps we cannot exactly see — not yet — how natural selection would turn sub-rational mental behaviour into inferences that reach truth. But we are certain that this in fact has happened. For natural selection is bound to preserve and increase useful behaviour. And we also find that our habits of inference are in fact useful. And if they are useful they must reach truth’. But notice what we are doing. Inference itself is on trial: that is, the Naturalist has given an account of what we thought to be our inferences which suggests that they are not real insights at all. We, and he, want to be reassured. And the reassurance turns out to be one more inference (if useful, then true) — as if this inference were not, once we accept his evolutionary picture, under the same suspicion as all the rest. If the value of our reasoning is in doubt, you cannot try to establish it by reasoning. If, as I said above, a proof that there are no proofs is nonsensical, so is a proof that there are proofs. Reason is our starting point. There can be no question either of attacking or defending it. If by treating it as a mere phenomenon you put yourself outside it, there is then no way, except by begging the question, of getting inside again
By accepting the Naturalistic position, all proofs are in doubt, for all reason is in doubt, so therefore no study correlates with reality.

What Lewis says though is that our Reason IS reliable, just that Naturalistic Materialism therefore isn't, so your weird non-sequitor of using other 'forms of communication?' doesn't follow anything he said.

Lastly, Lewis himself suggested the pragmatic approach could be adopted, but the thing is that this isn't what people are doing, but trying to craft theories of knowledge such as 'all mental faculties are solely based on physiology' etc. which aren't consistent. If you wish to avoid non-problems as you call them, by all means, but then you can't make far reaching claims such as saying physics or biology etc. have any correlation to actual reality, for this actually raises the problem of validity itself. As he says: "The old, high pretensions of reason must be given up. It is a behaviour evolved entirely as an aid to practice " in such cases. So you would be voiding any idea that one can reason through a problem at all and that your result would necessarily be accurate.
 
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Eudaimonist

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In my eyes that's not grasping.

Not agreeing =/= not grasping.

There's always a good reason to believe in a soul.

Such as arguments from ignorance?

Stand for something or fall for anything, I guess.

I agree. I stand for many things.

However, I will not stand for just anything, such as claims that have poor evidence or even contrary evidence, or indeed I would fall for anything.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Papias

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Ha, I don't believe there is a test to see if we have a soul. I guess it goes along with faith.

It sounds like there is no way to know if souls exist, and no evidence suggesting that they exist.

Boy I heard Catholicism was cooky but.. Just Joking brother. The age of anything can be speculation, I for one don't trust carbon dating methods.

If you think that the age of the earth is at all related to carbon dating, you are completely ignorant of the ways we know how old the earth is. You didn't answer my question - why do you think that you weren't created last Thursday?


Im just on the side that believes 6000-10'000 year old earth.

You hold a position while having no knowledge of the relevant evidence, or even understanding the different types of evidence that could answer that question? Imagine if I used that same approach anywhere else. "I firmly believe that synaptic signal transmission in humans is completely due to the action of dolomite fibrils! That's my answer even though I have no idea what has been found regarding nerve function."

Crazy, isn't it? Of course it is. Why do you consider that a reasonable approach for the age of the earth?

In Christ-

Papias
 
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DogmaHunter

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? Are you serious? You did nothing of the sort.

Let me show you from the wikipedia article you erroneously referenced last time, without it seems reading it.


Do you understand now? Please look up any philosophic concept you aren't familiar with before you attempt to use it. I hope you will use Occam's razor and a priori correctly in future at least.

Your condescension is noted.

And no, I most definatly used occam's razor correctly.

But whatever man... It's clear you are some kind of know-it-all who's not interested in discussion, but just in feeling superior.

Whatever makes you sleep at night, I guess.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Your condescension is noted.

And no, I most definatly used occam's razor correctly.

But whatever man... It's clear you are some kind of know-it-all who's not interested in discussion, but just in feeling superior.

Whatever makes you sleep at night, I guess.
I have gone out of my way to try and explain to you how Occam's Razor works, but you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. There's no accounting for wilful ignorance.

You can believe whatever you want of me, of course. The very fact that I posted here shows I am interested in discussion, but I see no reason to respond to specious arguments designed merely to bait me.
 
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KCfromNC

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You clearly did not read or grossly misunderstood what he had said.

If that's what you have to tell yourself...

By accepting the Naturalistic position, all proofs are in doubt, for all reason is in doubt, so therefore no study correlates with reality.

We can conclude studies correlate with reality while still maintaining some reasonable level of doubt about the conclusion. I don't see the issue. Sounds like a routine day in the lab to me.

What Lewis says though is that our Reason IS reliable

Why would he think that? Why does adding an unknowable omnipotent magical being to naturalism suddenly remove the doubts he was so sure exist without it?

Lastly, Lewis himself suggested the pragmatic approach could be adopted, but the thing is that this isn't what people are doing, but trying to craft theories of knowledge such as 'all mental faculties are solely based on physiology' etc. which aren't consistent.

You'll have to take that up with whoever you think is saying whatever it is you think they're saying.

So you would be voiding any idea that one can reason through a problem at all and that your result would necessarily be accurate.

Seems like a problem everyone has, gods or not. At least naturalism doesn't have to account for the possibility that a mysterious all-powerful being changing the nature of reality on a whim.
 
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expos4ever

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Our reasoning is reliable enough to get us by because we've learnt simple logic from observing consistencies in the world around us, making predictions and seeing if they're borne out, learning language, social interaction, simple arithmetic, etc.
Let me begin by saying I have not been following this thread for a few days so perhaps the issue I am about to raise has been treated by someone.

I think Quid raises a compelling question (at least as I understand his question): if the thoughts we think are nothing more than the high level product of the complex interplay between all sorts of basic chemical / physical processes in the brain that follow strict deterministic "laws" (plus some quantum uncertainty tossed in as well if you like), it seems a miraculous coincidence that such thoughts correctly characterize the world. There seems to be no a priori reason to believe that the consequence of bazillions of "simple" low-level interactions (neurons firing when some chemical level rises above a threshold) will lead us to conclude "I should run away from that sabre-tooth tiger" any more than to cause us to conclude "I should sit down and twiddle my thumbs in the presence of a sabre-tooth tiger".

It would seem that there must be a dynamic feedback mechanism that "tunes" the brain so that all the myriad "mindless, un-directed, slavishly-obedient-to-the-basic-laws-of-physics" low level processes produce the "right" response to a particular situation in the real world.

You talk about "learning". But how does this work, since we presumably agree that the fundamental laws of chemistry and physics do not change? The only solution I can think of that does not require a radical re-working of our understanding of nature is evolution by natural selection: If, when my eyes present my brain with the image of a sabre-tooth tiger and, by pure luck only, the complex web of stimulated chemical / physical processes triggered by the sight of that tiger happen to generate the thought "run!", I live to reproduce other humans with the same kind of brain. While the poor sod whose brain processes, again by pure chance, generate the thought "I think I will sit down and twiddle my thumbs" gets eaten and does not reproduce.

But I get the impression you think there is a "faster", more-efficient means (than evolution) for the brain to get "re-wired" to produce thoughts that correctly characterize the world. But what is the mechanism, given that the basic laws of nature - the "rules" that "compute" the results of low-level interactions in the brain do not change?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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...The problem is though that Naturalistic Materialism undermines the validity of Reason though...
...
1: No belief is rationally inferred if it can be fully explained in terms of nonrational causes - Reasoning requires insight into logical relations.

2: If naturalism is true, then all beliefs can be fully explained in terms of nonrational causes...

Therefore, if naturalism is true, then no belief is rationally inferred (from 1 and 2).

But Naturalism can only be accepted based on inference from reason.
OK; I think this discussion hinges on a complex issue, the meaning of reason, insight, and understanding, and how they arise. If I understand you correctly, you don't believe they can arise from relatively simple logical operations, such as those governing the signalling of neurons, however complex the arrangement; and I think they can. Is that a fair summary of the relevant positions?

I agree that it seems unlikely that a system of logic gates, however complex, can be programmed directly to reason and understand in a human-like way; I think such hard-coding lacks the degrees of freedom (flexibility) to manage high-level generic information processing of that kind (it might be theoretically possible, but I doubt it).

However, it seems to me that when a large system of logic gates is itself configured as a generic processing system, e.g. a learning system, such as a neural network, higher levels of abstraction in processing information are possible that are not available at a lower level. In other words, novel informational structures and processes are possible - a phenomenon often called 'emergence'. I see this as analogous to the emergent behaviour of the patterns of activity in Conway's Game of Life, where a static grid of binary cells whose on/off state is trivially determined by those of its neighbors, can give rise to patterns with novel rules of movement and interaction, resulting in complex behaviours (complex enough to compute, replicate, or emulate Game of Life itself), dependent solely on the initial grid state.

The fact that specific deficits in reason and understanding are associated with specific damage to or interference with the patterns of firing of neurons in specific areas of the brain suggests to me that reason, insight, and understanding are terms we apply to complex information processing in the patterns of the firing of neurons. YMMV.
 
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expos4ever

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But I get the impression you think there is a "faster", more-efficient means (than evolution) for the brain to get "re-wired" to produce thoughts that correctly characterize the world. But what is the mechanism, given that the basic laws of nature - the "rules" that "compute" the results of low-level interactions in the brain do not change?
I think I got it.

While evolution by natural selection is the only "naturalistic" means by which a flipper can become an arm, brains are different.

1. We can use the computer as an analogy if we are assuming the brain is simply a "machine";
2. Computers can be programmed to 'learn on the fly' to manifest "correct" behaviour (I believe this is indisputable);
3. Therefore, by appeal to (1), brains can be programmed to learn on the fly to manifest correct behaviour;
4. While it is the human being who programs the computer to do this, we need to identify an analogous "programmer" (I very intentionally put that in quotes) for the brain.
5. Answer: Evolution - evolution produces the kind of "on the fly re-structuring" capability that we need to have in order to maximize the degree to which our thoughts accurately reflect what is true about the world.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... if the thoughts we think are nothing more than the high level product of the complex interplay between all sorts of basic chemical / physical processes in the brain that follow strict deterministic "laws" (plus some quantum uncertainty tossed in as well if you like), it seems a miraculous coincidence that such thoughts correctly characterize the world.
They don't; unaided, they make rough approximations that are 'good enough' where it really counts. Over the last couple of thousand years, particularly the last 300 years or so, we've been able to accumulate knowledge and techniques to be able to characterize the world far more accurately, and we find it's nothing like our naive understanding.

It would seem that there must be a dynamic feedback mechanism that "tunes" the brain so that all the myriad "mindless, un-directed, slavishly-obedient-to-the-basic-laws-of-physics" low level processes produce the "right" response to a particular situation in the real world.
There is; even single-cell organisms can vary their responses to the same environmental stimulus over time, in ways ranging from simple chemical 'exhaustion' (e.g. a molecule used in mediating the response is used up, so the response ceases until the molecule accumulates again, or a membrane depolarizes and no longer responds until an ionic gradient is re-established; both of which occur in neurons too), to complex cascades of molecular interactions and complex sequences of changes in the expression of genes.

You talk about "learning". But how does this work, since we presumably agree that the fundamental laws of chemistry and physics do not change? The only solution I can think of that does not require a radical re-working of our understanding of nature is evolution by natural selection: If, when my eyes present my brain with the image of a sabre-tooth tiger and, by pure luck only, the complex web of stimulated chemical / physical processes triggered by the sight of that tiger happen to generate the thought "run!", I live to reproduce other humans with the same kind of brain. While the poor sod whose brain processes, again by pure chance, generate the thought "I think I will sit down and twiddle my thumbs" gets eaten and does not reproduce.

But I get the impression you think there is a "faster", more-efficient means (than evolution) for the brain to get "re-wired" to produce thoughts that correctly characterize the world. But what is the mechanism, given that the basic laws of nature - the "rules" that "compute" the results of low-level interactions in the brain do not change?
For creatures with brains, the high-level learning systems are biological neural networks in the brain. That link explains what they are and how they work. Most artificial neural networks are grossly simplified (up to perhaps a few tens of millions of artificial neurons) compared with the networks in the brain (around 80 billion neurons with their 'helper' cells). In the brain, neurons can make new connections to other neurons or prune away connections depending on a variety of causes (e.g. the amount of stimulation they are getting), and in some parts of the brain, new neurons can be produced. The net result of changes in the connectivity and numbers of neurons is called 'neural plasticity', and not only enhances learning but allows a degree of flexibility if there is damage (e.g. stroke) when adjacent parts of the brain may be able to partly compensate.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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OK; I think this discussion hinges on a complex issue, the meaning of reason, insight, and understanding, and how they arise. If I understand you correctly, you don't believe they can arise from relatively simple logical operations, such as those governing the signalling of neurons, however complex the arrangement; and I think they can. Is that a fair summary of the relevant positions?

I agree that it seems unlikely that a system of logic gates, however complex, can be programmed directly to reason and understand in a human-like way; I think such hard-coding lacks the degrees of freedom (flexibility) to manage high-level generic information processing of that kind (it might be theoretically possible, but I doubt it).

However, it seems to me that when a large system of logic gates is itself configured as a generic processing system, e.g. a learning system, such as a neural network, higher levels of abstraction in processing information are possible that are not available at a lower level. In other words, novel informational structures and processes are possible - a phenomenon often called 'emergence'. I see this as analogous to the emergent behaviour of the patterns of activity in Conway's Game of Life, where a static grid of binary cells whose on/off state is trivially determined by those of its neighbors, can give rise to patterns with novel rules of movement and interaction, resulting in complex behaviours (complex enough to compute, replicate, or emulate Game of Life itself), dependent solely on the initial grid state.

The fact that specific deficits in reason and understanding are associated with specific damage to or interference with the patterns of firing of neurons in specific areas of the brain suggests to me that reason, insight, and understanding are terms we apply to complex information processing in the patterns of the firing of neurons. YMMV.
No, it is not that reason can't arise from simple logical operations, it is that Reason cannot arise from unreason. Adding complexicity changes nothing to this. That high level data processing occurs, does not mean Reason does.

As the example of programmes that learn human language points to, the programme learns by mimickry and pattern recognision. In this way it can respond in kind, but it is not making logical deductions but following patterns and nor can it be said it truly 'understands language'.
Similarly a process of emergence, still has Reason arising from Unreason. So while it appears to be reasoning, the fact is that this cannot be shown to be the case and in fact logically cannot be - for a rational inferred belief cannot be rational if due to non-rational causes. If I believe a tiger to be dangerous because of a bump to the head which made me convinced of the fact, while my belief appears logical, it isn't as it isn't based on logical deduction. Even if I add a whole cascade between headbump and tiger of additional propositions that are logical, if the whole edifice is based on a headbump then it all is illogical construct.

So in the example of emergent systems, the system creates ideas that appear logical but as they are derived from non-logical propositions, they aren't.

The question of specific deficits associated with specific injuries changes nothing to this. It in fact argues that Reason does not exist, not that it does - as all would therefore be based on non-logical neuronal depolarisation. I did mention that this remains a possibility, but if true it invalidates all human knowledge and thus also our logical thought construct which made us reach this conclusion in the first place.

But I don't think it really is a problem, since for instance in certain Aphasias it appears as if we don't understand or can't read when really we can, we merely cannot express it or vice-versa. Specific deficits associated with specific traumas does not mean it is the trauma that caused the deficit, perhaps merely its expression, and no trauma is associated with loss of logical deduction in entirety, it usually just slows the process down and sometimes introduces delusion and misapprehension into the mix. I agree the brain has a significant and important part to play in our thoughts and reasoning, I never said otherwise, I just don't think it is fully sufficient in and off itself to account for it. As Modern Neuroscience has not been able to demonstrate this either, to think thus is neither illogical nor unscientific nor does it conflict with current medical knowledge.
 
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