Women Pastors?

[SnowyMacie]

Our minister is on fleek & she's a lady. Gender is a non-issue. Whoever does the job the best should do it.

There's a phrase I'd never though I'd see on CF.

 

[timewerx]

Yes, time to put the foot down for the ladies, with some footwear, of course!

 

[Socktastic]

I have seen amazing clergywomen, those who seem genuinely have that core I assume all called to the clergy would have. I have seen poor excuses for clergywomen who were appointed to show how liberal and forward thinking the church is.

Gender is, for me, less of an issue than perhaps the core is. Considering how many clergy can be absolutely vile when outside of the spotlight, I think I am thankful to meet those who genuinely try to love by example, rather than viewing their calling as a job with set hours.

But then I guess female clergy with female parishioners is not such an issue? My theology is poor, but wasn't the issue with women who were teaching men or something along those lines?

I am glad for those on fire for the Lord, rather than on fire for the guaranteed pension and generally bill free housing ...

 

[Cearbhall]

but since your thought process led you away from Christ, I think there was/is a serious flaw in your thought process

It's the peak of irony to accuse someone of having a serious flaw in their thought process using the logic that you have a predetermined conclusion.

(is it fair to say outside of Christianity? even though we do not agree on the topic on the ordination of women I do not want to be rude and put words in your mouth)

No, that would not be fair, nor logical. Why on Earth would supporting female ministers have led me out of Christianity? There are plenty of denominations that encourage that.

 

[Tull]

Since that wasn't my argument your question is invalid.

-CryptoLutheran

Since you attempt to substitute Catholicism for biblical truth it is you who are invalid.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Since you attempt to substitute Catholicism for biblical truth it is you who are invalid.

When you decide you want to engage in an adult conversation let me know.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tull]

When you decide you want to engage in an adult conversation let me know.

-CryptoLutheran

Not interested in your heresy

 

[Ubuntu]

Yes, I believe women can, and should, be pastors. In my experience, the women who feel called to go against the norm and decide to become ministers, usually are exceptionally gifted and Spirit-driven.

I know two women here at christianforums who have worked in the ministry, and I also know female pastors in real-life. On the other hand I’ve seen way too many male pastors who are unfitted for their job, but strangely enough the female pastors that I’ve been acquainted with, have all been very gifted and qualified.

I think the reason for this is because it still is quite unusual with female pastors. So the women who decide to become pastors, often tend to feel a strong call to join the ministry. In contrast to this, my gut feeling is that many men think that becoming a pastor simply is a career opportunity, a vocation they think would be okay.

So yeah, I think women can be pastors! But more importantly a person, male or female, shouldn’t become a pastor without being completely sure that God is calling them to join the ministry.

 

[Paulie079]

Yes, I believe women can, and should, be pastors. In my experience, the women who feel called to go against the norm and decide to become ministers, usually are exceptionally gifted and Spirit-driven.

I know two women here at christianforums who have worked in the ministry, and I also know female pastors in real-life. On the other hand I’ve seen way too many male pastors who are unfitted for their job, but strangely enough the female pastors that I’ve been acquainted with, have all been very gifted and qualified.

I think the reason for this is because it still is quite unusual with female pastors. So the women who decide to become pastors, often tend to feel a strong call to join the ministry. In contrast to this, my gut feeling is that many men think that becoming a pastor simply is a career opportunity, a vocation they think would be okay.

So yeah, I think women can be pastors! But more importantly a person, male or female, shouldn’t become a pastor without being completely sure that God is calling them to join the ministry.

I was resisting the temptation to go on the offensive, but....I just couldn't anymore haha.

So I completely understand how it is much easier to believe or "feel" that women should be pastors. My question to you (or others that generally agree with this) would be how do you deal with the multiple passages that say that elders should be the husband of one wife?

The other thing I will point out is that in this discussion, one of the single greatest misconceptions people have is that they think that people like me believe that women shouldn't be pastors because they are unfit or incapable. That is absolutely not the case. It has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with God's good design for His people. (And as a side not, I agree with you that there are a lot of people, men included, who are pastors who shouldn't be.)

 

[Rhamiel]

When you decide you want to engage in an adult conversation let me know.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't think he knows you are a Lutheran

if only there was a subtle hint

like, if your faith is listed a "Lutheran"
or if you sign your posts "CryptoLutheran"
or if you had a big Lutheran pic in your avatar

I mean come on ViaCrucis if you only ONE of these things he might know where you are coming from

oh wait.... you do all three...

well never mind then

 

[ViaCrucis]

I was resisting the temptation to go on the offensive, but....I just couldn't anymore haha.

So I completely understand how it is much easier to believe or "feel" that women should be pastors. My question to you (or others that generally agree with this) would be how do you deal with the multiple passages that say that elders should be the husband of one wife?

Speaking personally, as the Church historically has understood it: No polygamy and no serial marriages (seeing as polygamy was forbidden under Roman law, the latter was most likely what the author has in mind). Within the context it says that a presbyter (or deacon, or bishop) should have his own house in order. Someone who, for example, has been remarried multiple times could indicate a lack of discipline on their own part, while situational and individual circumstances ought to be observed, as a rule of thumb someone who has had multiple marriages probably has something they might need to deal with, and thus probably isn't fit to serve as a spiritual father over the congregation. Recognizing female clergy would understand this as well. If we understand the purpose of the Pastoral Epistles--as pastoral guidance from one pastor to another--then we can more readily understand how the passage ought to be read and how it ought to be applied.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ubuntu]

I was resisting the temptation to go on the offensive, but....I just couldn't anymore haha.

So I completely understand how it is much easier to believe or "feel" that women should be pastors. My question to you (or others that generally agree with this) would be how do you deal with the multiple passages that say that elders should be the husband of one wife?

The other thing I will point out is that in this discussion, one of the single greatest misconceptions people have is that they think that people like me believe that women shouldn't be pastors because they are unfit or incapable. That is absolutely not the case. It has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with God's good design for His people. (And as a side not, I agree with you that there are a lot of people, men included, who are pastors who shouldn't be.)

Good question! Don't worry, I don't think you are too offensive here, I understand your concerns!

Here is my take on this… The thing is, if you look at the way the modern church is organized, it differs in many ways from Church back in Biblical times. The reason for this is obviously because our modern society is very different from society during the time of the apostles. A different society means that the church necessarily will be organized differently too.

You know, Paul has admonitions about how Christian slave owners should treat their slaves, but this is obviously an advice that is given in a special cultural context, right?

There are no deep, spiritual reasons in the Bible why women cannot be teachers, but it is true that society back then was different, that there were different norms and expectations when it comes to gender. Males and females were largely separated, women had to wear veils in public and so on… Is this really what we want?

To sum things up... Not everything in the Bible have a direct, modern, equivalent. We cannot always construct a general theology out of advice that were given in a specific, historic setting.

 

[Rhamiel]

Speaking personally, as the Church historically has understood it: No polygamy and no serial marriages (seeing as polygamy was forbidden under Roman law, the latter was most likely what the author has in mind). Within the context it says that a presbyter (or deacon, or bishop) should have his own house in order. Someone who, for example, has been remarried multiple times could indicate a lack of discipline on their own part, while situational and individual circumstances ought to be observed, as a rule of thumb someone who has had multiple marriages probably has something they might need to deal with, and thus probably isn't fit to serve as a spiritual father over the congregation. Recognizing female clergy would understand this as well. If we understand the purpose of the Pastoral Epistles--as pastoral guidance from one pastor to another--then we can more readily understand how the passage ought to be read and how it ought to be applied.

-CryptoLutheran

no serial marriages?
so no divorce and remarried people as pastors?

 

[Cearbhall]

So I completely understand how it is much easier to believe or "feel" that women should be pastors. My question to you (or others that generally agree with this) would be how do you deal with the multiple passages that say that elders should be the husband of one wife?

Well, I was raised Roman Catholic, and I can't speak for all Catholics, but there wasn't this constant anxiety of "But the Bible says right here!!!" that I see on this website. Frankly, my response would have been "So what? A human wrote down their best interpretation of what God told them. I'm another human who has a relationship with God, and I have my own ideas abut what he wants."

The Bible was a nice launching point for discussion and a useful source of the history of Judaism and early Christianity in my theological education, but it was just a fraction of the reading material that I was given in my 18 years in Catholic schooling.

The other thing I will point out is that in this discussion, one of the single greatest misconceptions people have is that they think that people like me believe that women shouldn't be pastors because they are unfit or incapable. That is absolutely not the case. It has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with God's good design for His people.

To me personally, this is where it becomes obvious that the authors were just writing down their culture, rather than something God told them. Even when I was Christian, I wasn't going to agree with something if I couldn't see the reasoning, even if it's in the Bible.

 

[James of Arc]

I guess it boils down to anybody can be a preacher but in reality they can not be my preacher.

 

[Cearbhall]

I guess it boils down to anybody can be a preacher but in reality they can not be my preacher.

I fully respect every person's right to choose what church they attend based on whatever criteria they like.

 

[SnowyMacie]

If I had a dollar for every time I've seen this debate, I could retire.

 

[ViaCrucis]

no serial marriages?
so no divorce and remarried people as pastors?

I suspect that, given the time and culture, that would be one of the more likely readings of the text. Polygamy was illegal under Roman law, so it seems highly unlikely (to me anyway) that polygamy would have been of much concern. This is also of ancient and historic opinion within the Church, for example:

"We have already said, that a bishop, a presbyter, and a deacon, when they are constituted, must be but once married, whether their wives be alive or whether they be dead; and that it is not lawful for them, if they are unmarried when they are ordained, to be married afterwards; or if they be then married, to marry a second time, but to be content with that wife. which they had when they came to ordination." - Apostolic Constitutions, Book VI, 17

"Therefore the perfect signification of the sacrament requires the husband to have only one wife, and the wife to have but one husband; and consequently bigamy, which does away with this, causes irregularity. And there are four kinds of bigamy: the first is when a man has several lawful wives successively; the second is when a man has several wives at once, one in law, the other in fact; the third, when he has several successively, one in law, the other in fact; the fourth, when a man marries a widow. Accordingly irregularity attaches to all of these." - Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Q. 66, Article I

I'm not saying this doesn't restrict polygamy for prospective clergy, my point is that within the context of the ancient Roman world the "husband of one wife" is more likely to refer not to the hypothetical polygamist, but to the more likely serial monogamist.

I also pointed out, in my earlier post, that I believe situation and circumstances ought to be regarded. I don't believe being remarried is itself grounds to dismiss someone from the pastorate--good pastoral wisdom would recognize the complexities of real life and that not everything is always black and white, clean, or simple. But, yes, I do think that the author of 1 Timothy is speaking of a person of good character in regard to their own family life as demonstrative of their ability to, then, be a competent minister of Christ's Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Rhamiel]

Not my thought process on this topic. As I've said many times, this is how I was raised. Catholic and egalitarian. My classmates thought women should be priests, my teachers at my Catholic school thought women should be priests, my parents would have supported me in anything...my views on this have absolutely nothing to do with me leaving. I was content to stay in the RCC since I didn't feel a calling to be a priest. It's not like there are many Catholics who think the Church is right about everything.

I did not say this particular belief led you out of Christianity

I said your thought process
you lack of respect for the truths of the Faith, your lack of just.... faith...

 

[Rhamiel]

good pastoral wisdom would recognize the complexities of real life and that not everything is always black and white, clean, or simple

so maybe even have polygamy as an option?
since we can not be so black and white about everything
and depending on the culture?

you basically add quantifiers until that bible verse is meaningless
saying it is not about men, that it is not even really about divorce and remarriage either
you just water it down till the words are meaningless