How does one come to believe something?

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You are doing it wrong, totally wrong.

It is proof! Rock-solid, undeniable, perfect proof. Never admit anything else.

And it is him who cannot prove that there is no God... you can prove that there is no God - he just cannot perceive it.

Because you prove it by using RUPA-Logic! Rock-solid, Undeniable, Perfect Atheistic Logic!

You don't have to describe the rules or axioms of RUPA-Logic. You don't need to... he wouldn't accept or understand it if you did. RUPA-Logic is based on only one thing: Rock-solid Undeniable Perfect Atheistic Truth! Which he cannot have as long as he isn't all four if it.

The Perfect Analogy for this is a Glass of Water. It is neither half-full nor half-empty, but both Glass and Water. Which makes no sense... if you use common "physical world logic" or common "spiritual logic". But when you use RUPA-Logic, it makes perfect sense and shows that I am right!

I am right. Atheists would never use something they made up.

Wise words, Freodin, how right you are; truly I had forgotten the undeniable strength and power of Making Stuff Up - particularly stuff that they can't perceive, with rules they wouldn't understand...

<sigh>

 

[Freodin]

Wise words, Freodin, how right you are; truly I had forgotten the undeniable strength and power of Making Stuff Up - particularly stuff that they can't perceive, with rules they wouldn't understand...

<sigh>

I would have thought the "Source of all knowledge" would at least have provided the knowledge of how to convince someone who doubts your claims... but this "knowledge" seems to be limited exclusively to non-verifiable things.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... this "knowledge" seems to be limited exclusively to non-verifiable things.

No, here you're going wrong - because you can't see that it's all independently verifiable by each individual, personally & subjectively. Take it from one who knows, I've been there.

 

[Freodin]

No, here you're going wrong - because you can't see that it's all independently verifiable by each individual, personally & subjectively. Take it from one who knows, I've been there.

Correction then... "limited exclusively to non-inter-personally-verifiable things."

 

[Colter]

"The certainties of science proceed entirely from the intellect; the certitudes of religion spring from the very foundations of the entire personality. Science appeals to the understanding of the mind; religion appeals to the loyalty and devotion of the body, mind, and spirit, even to the whole personality.

God is so all real and absolute that no material sign of proof or no demonstration of so-called miracle may be offered in testimony of his reality. Always will we know him because we trust him, and our belief in him is wholly based on our personal participation in the divine manifestations of his infinite reality.

The indwelling Thought Adjuster unfailingly arouses in man's soul a true and searching hunger for perfection together with a far-reaching curiosity which can be adequately satisfied only by communion with God, the divine source of that Adjuster. The hungry soul of man refuses to be satisfied with anything less than the personal realization of the living God. Whatever more God may be than a high and perfect moral personality, he cannot, in our hungry and finite concept, be anything less." UB 1955

 

[Colter]

"Do you not comprehend that God dwells within you, that he has become what you are that he may make you what he is!"
Jesus of the UB

 

[Geralt]

"believing" is less of an issue than "desiring"

people believe something or anything not just because of the facts, but before that is the desire to believe. even if you believe in God but have no desire or need, it remains passive and the person remains unengaged.

There was a thread a while back entitled "Belief not a choice?" and several atheists in that thread insisted that people only come to believe things by evaluating evidence. So I thought I'd extend that into a syllogism and see if it floats.

1. People only come to believe something by evaluating evidence.
2. People who are Christians believe that God exists.
3. Therefore, People who are Christians only came to believe that God exists by evaluating evidence.

Is the above a sound argument? If not, why not?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...God is so all real and absolute that no material sign of proof or no demonstration of so-called miracle may be offered in testimony of his reality.

That's great; the reason there's no evidence is because God is so all real and absolute...

Speaks for itself, really.

 

[Colter]

That's great; the reason there's no evidence is because God is so all real and absolute...

Speaks for itself, really.

What evidence could an absolute really provide a finite that wouldn't lead to more demands for more evidence? And if there was some sort of evidence you would still be confronted with a great deal of unknowns. The demands for proof is a cop out.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What evidence could an absolute really provide a finite that wouldn't lead to more demands for more evidence? And if there was some sort of evidence you would still be confronted with a great deal of unknowns. The demands for proof is a cop out.

Straw man. Don't want proof, want evidence, any evidence.

 

[Colter]

Straw man. Don't want proof, want evidence, any evidence.

Your pessimism is evidence that the universe is not entirely material, mechanical, mathematical. Your consciousness transcends the purely mathematical while demanding evidence of transcendent realities. You are yourself a child of God however you have complete freedom to deny the very gift of transcendence that you demand evidence for.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Your pessimism is evidence that the universe is not entirely material, mechanical, mathematical.

My opinions are evidence only of my world view - which is, overall, optimistic.

 

[quatona]

Your pessimism is evidence that the universe is not entirely material, mechanical, mathematical.

Looks like you just shifted the goalposts quite a bit.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Your pessimism is evidence that the universe is not entirely material, mechanical, mathematical. Your consciousness transcends the purely mathematical while demanding evidence of transcendent realities. You are yourself a child of God however you have complete freedom to deny the very gift of transcendence that you demand evidence for.

How does one go from...

Pessimism=evidence of thought

Evidence of thought=evidence of something non-material

Evidence of something non-material=evidence for god lol

???

Even if we accepted the premise that "non-material" is a real thing/category/state of being...that in no way at all even comes close to being evidence of a god of some kind, or a soul, or anything you would call "spiritual".

 

[Colter]

How does one go from...

Pessimism=evidence of thought

Evidence of thought=evidence of something non-material

Evidence of something non-material=evidence for god lol

???

Even if we accepted the premise that "non-material" is a real thing/category/state of being...that in no way at all even comes close to being evidence of a god of some kind, or a soul, or anything you would call "spiritual".

Atheist who have spiritual conversion experiences don't usually claim that it was based on an intellectual discovery, the result of so called human reasoning. From the outside looking in, the material universe looks purely mechanical, devoid of spiritual influences. From within the mind of the spirit born child of God the same universe looks spiritual. I see the world that you see but I see it in an entirely different way.

 

[Colter]

How does one go from...

Pessimism=evidence of thought

Evidence of thought=evidence of something non-material

Evidence of something non-material=evidence for god lol

???

Even if we accepted the premise that "non-material" is a real thing/category/state of being...that in no way at all even comes close to being evidence of a god of some kind, or a soul, or anything you would call "spiritual".

The point I was trying to make if that in a universe governed by precise, testable, repeatable laws, the fact that 2 people can have opposite views should be proof enough to you that the universe is not entirely material/mechanical. Consciousness transcends the platform of the material, electrochemical currants that sustains it.

All of the material universe is gravity responsive to the Great Attractor, even the galaxies and clusters of galaxies are in the grasp of this force. But while our material bodies on this material world are in it's grasp, consciousness isn't. Mind is mind made, the universe is mind made and mind managed.

We still can't prove it but assuming we are correct, that God created the finite economy for his children to begin their training ascent in, we would still be confronted with this world of uncertainty exactly as it is.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

All of the material universe is gravity responsive to the Great Attractor, even the galaxies and clusters of galaxies are in the grasp of this force.

It's debatable, but current astronomy suggests that the Great attractor isn't anywhere near as large or massive as was once thought, and even our own galaxy isn't moving towards it...

[Mind is mind made...

That's a neat trick!

 

[Colter]

It's debatable, but current astronomy suggests that the Great attractor isn't anywhere near as large or massive as was once thought, and even our own galaxy isn't moving towards it...

That's a neat trick!

Can you direct me to the current astronomy which shrinks the Great attractor?

 

[ScottA]

Safeguarded from what? Other Christians here have said it is available to all.

From abuse...from those who are against God...from the enemy.

This morbid focus on death, death sentences, and life imprisonment is unhealthy, and coupling it with unsubstantiated promises of paradise is too reminiscent of the motivations for fundamentalist martyrdom for my taste.

But that's not the case. This is real life; and as you admit we have to die, we're clearly not giving up death; what you're calling 'real life' is an unsubstantiated promise of an undefined 'something better', an emotional appeal to elective elitist escapism through morbid thanatophobia...

You are not listening...we have seen something you have not, and this is our report. It is not unsubstantiated except to those like yourself who have not seen. You are simply in the dark. If it has been told by one portion of the population to another portion all throughout the history of the world - it cannot be said that it is unsubstantiated. That is simply not true.

What you're telling me sounds messed up because it is messed up. I don't think life is 'messed up' - individual lives can be messed up, but the vast majority of humanity is surprisingly happy with its lot. Life is what it is; escapist fantasies may be a comfort in hard times, but living a whole life in anticipation is a waste.

If a lifetime ends in death...and you take away time...what you end up with is "death."

Study the reality of time. Do the math.

 

[ScottA]

So, can you describe the rules and axioms of 'spiritual logic' or is it just something you made up?

Lol, it's not proof if it can't be perceived.

Physical logic pertains to physical things...spiritual logic pertains to spiritual things.

If you only live in the physical world, you are like a fish that cannot relate to or appreciate the air and the land. But even a fish does not deny what he does not know.

The proof is on land - evolve, or die.