LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[mmksparbud]

This was on another thread, couldn't figure out how to provide a link to it. I find this quite interesting.

We can be quite sure that Joseph Smith was very creative in incorporating quotes from various sources, and therefore, the Angel Moroni may just be part of his creative mind.
What evidence?

In the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 19:1 reads:

Nevertheless, the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun, and the land of Naphtali, and afterwards did more grievously afflict by the way of the Red Sea beyond Jordan in Galilee of the nations.

This verse is a quotation of Isaiah 9:1, which reads in the latest KJV as follows:

Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

Why would Joseph Smith insert the 'Red Sea' instead of just 'the sea'?
Because there was an error in the 1769 KJV version that he was copying from which included the words 'Red Sea'.


How do we know that 'Red Sea' is an error?

During the Kingdom Age (about 1000 BC and onwards), the land of Naphtali bordered the Sea of Galilee to the West. The land of Zabulun bordered Naphtali to the West and South. It is within this region that we find many names from Jesus' ministry - Capernaum, Cana, Genneserat, Bethsaida and, of couse, Galilee. The quotation from Isaiah thus neatly pinpoints the area of the Messiah's future ministry.

The Red Sea, however, is over 250 miles to the South of Galilee, near the Egyptian border. There is no way that Isaiah could at any stage have contained the geographical qualifier "Red".

There is further proof of this assertion. Firstly, the quotation also mentions that "the sea" is beyond Jordan, in Galilee. The Jordan River, of course, empties into the Dead Sea, and never reaches the Red Sea at all. Further, the Red Sea is definitely nowhere near Galilee.

Secondly, this verse from Isaiah was quoted by Matthew in Matthew 4:12-16, specifically with reference to Galilee and Capernaum. The quotation in Matthew is also missing the reference to the Red Sea.

 

[tickingclocker]

They didn't lift them with their minds eye. They didn't turn the leafs with their minds eye. NONE of them ever denied it even though some were excommunicated. We don't need the archeology or proof the way you want. Don't you get it. It is no different than your faith in the bible. There is no proof.

Con men usually don't rat each other out. It makes them look bad, especially when they have moved on to other cons, as did every one of those men. So how did they all end up?

Three witnesses:
* Martin Harris had been known as superstitious since boyhood, telling wild tales and believing in ghosts. JS told Harris he could not look at the plates or he and his family would be cursed. After Lucy Harris, Martins wife, refused to give back the 116 pages of copy, Smith claimed to have received a revelation re: Harris, calling him wicked and boastful. But JS still took Harris's money. Harris gave false prophecies in 1830 re: Jackson being the last US president if everyone didn't become Mormon within a year, Palmyra NY would become the New Jerusalem, and its streets would be paved with gold. After Lucy's death, 53 year old Harris married BY's 22-year-old niece, who eventually left him like Lucy. Harris left the LDS after finding out the Kirtland Bank was a fraud, and was excommed. He reversed his claim of ever physically seeing the plates, except in imagination, then claimed no one had ever seen them either. He called JS an imposter and a knave. Harris rejoined the LDS shortly before his death, pennyless and alone. He had been the member of more than 12 different churches.

* Oliver Cowdery: Cowdery hunted for buried treasure using a divining rod when young. Later he lodged with his Smith cousins, where JS "told him about the plates". Cowdery married David Whitmer's sister. Cowdery and his family attended the Congregational Church in VT when its minister was the Rev. Ethan Smith, author of View of the Hebrews. Cowdery was named president of JS's Kirtland Bank branch of Monroe Bank in MI, in which the LDS held the controlling interest. Both banks failed. He later joined the Tiffin Methodist Church which would have made him renounce the BoM before joining. In 1839 he published a tract rejecting the LDS. He rejoined the LDS shortly before his death---alone, destitute and sick. He didn't testify to the BoM's authentication UNTIL he had rejoined and was being supported by the LDS. Before they would take him in, BY ordered him to sign a testimony re: the BoM's "authentication" and that he had no designs upon "authority" within the LDS, thus eliminating any threat against BY's presidency. He signed. If he hadn't? They would have tossed him out on his ear. He died before he could reach Salt Lake City, Utah.

* David Whitmer, lifelong friend of Cowdery, founded his own con, cashing in on the BoM, the Whitmerite Church of Christ, defunct since the 1960's. He denounced all other Mormon branches but his own. He, like Harris, resigned from the LDS over the Kirtland Bank fiasco. He once said, "As to the High Priesthood, Jesus Christ himself is the last Great High Priest, this too after the order of Melchisedec, as I understand the Holy Scriptures". How interesting.

The eight witnesses were all members of either the Whitmer family, or the Smith family---red flag #1:
* Christian, Jacob, Peter, John Jr. were all Whitmers.
* Hiram Page (Smith cousin), Joseph Smith Sr. (JS's father), Hyrum and Samuel Smith (JS's brothers).

As one instance of such people, Hiram Page started his own rival church in 1830 while living with the Whitmer family, using a seerstone he claimed to receive revelations from. Cowdery and Whitmer believed these "revelations" were just as true as JS's. However, JS convinced Page his "revelations" were evil and Page destroyed his seerstone. Later, in 1832, Page moved his family to Ohio where he had bought a considerable amount of land, and the Whitmer's followed along with JS's family. They tried to found a town called the "Whitmer Settlement", but were tossed out of the area. He eventually became a member of David Whitmer's church. NOT the LDS.

As a side note, JS's family were early members of a weird radical Congregationalist sect called the New Israelites in VT, along with some of their Cowdery relatives. They believed that they were "modern Jews", and were destined to build a temple in the USA. They did attempt to, but the project was eventually abandoned. Like most religious cults, they eventually dispersed.

 

[fatboys]

Con men usually don't rat each other out. It makes them look bad, especially when they have moved on to other cons, as did every one of those men. So how did they all end up?

Three witnesses:
* Martin Harris had been known as superstitious since boyhood, telling wild tales and believing in ghosts. JS told Harris he could not look at the plates or he and his family would be cursed. After Lucy Harris, Martins wife, refused to give back the 116 pages of copy, Smith claimed to have received a revelation re: Harris, calling him wicked and boastful. But JS still took Harris's money. Harris gave false prophecies in 1830 re: Jackson being the last US president if everyone didn't become Mormon within a year, Palmyra NY would become the New Jerusalem, and its streets would be paved with gold. After Lucy's death, 53 year old Harris married BY's 22-year-old niece, who eventually left him like Lucy. Harris left the LDS after finding out the Kirtland Bank was a fraud, and was excommed. He reversed his claim of ever physically seeing the plates, except in imagination, then claimed no one had ever seen them either. He called JS an imposter and a knave. Harris rejoined the LDS shortly before his death, pennyless and alone. He had been the member of more than 12 different churches.

* Oliver Cowdery: Cowdery hunted for buried treasure using a divining rod when young. Later he lodged with his Smith cousins, where JS "told him about the plates". Cowdery married David Whitmer's sister. Cowdery and his family attended the Congregational Church in VT when its minister was the Rev. Ethan Smith, author of View of the Hebrews. Cowdery was named president of JS's Kirtland Bank branch of Monroe Bank in MI, in which the LDS held the controlling interest. Both banks failed. He later joined the Tiffin Methodist Church which would have made him renounce the BoM before joining. In 1839 he published a tract rejecting the LDS. He rejoined the LDS shortly before his death---alone, destitute and sick. He didn't testify to the BoM's authentication UNTIL he had rejoined and was being supported by the LDS. Before they would take him in, BY ordered him to sign a testimony re: the BoM's "authentication" and that he had no designs upon "authority" within the LDS, thus eliminating any threat against BY's presidency. He signed. If he hadn't? They would have tossed him out on his ear. He died before he could reach Salt Lake City, Utah.

* David Whitmer, lifelong friend of Cowdery, founded his own con, cashing in on the BoM, the Whitmerite Church of Christ, defunct since the 1960's. He denounced all other Mormon branches but his own. He, like Harris, resigned from the LDS over the Kirtland Bank fiasco. He once said, "As to the High Priesthood, Jesus Christ himself is the last Great High Priest, this too after the order of Melchisedec, as I understand the Holy Scriptures". How interesting.

The eight witnesses were all members of either the Whitmer family, or the Smith family---red flag #1:
* Christian, Jacob, Peter, John Jr. were all Whitmers.
* Hiram Page (Smith cousin), Joseph Smith Sr. (JS's father), Hyrum and Samuel Smith (JS's brothers).

As one instance of such people, Hiram Page started his own rival church in 1830 while living with the Whitmer family, using a seerstone he claimed to receive revelations from. Cowdery and Whitmer believed these "revelations" were just as true as JS's. However, JS convinced Page his "revelations" were evil and Page destroyed his seerstone. Later, in 1832, Page moved his family to Ohio where he had bought a considerable amount of land, and the Whitmer's followed along with JS's family. They tried to found a town called the "Whitmer Settlement", but were tossed out of the area. He eventually became a member of David Whitmer's church. NOT the LDS.

As a side note, JS's family were early members of a weird radical Congregationalist sect called the New Israelites in VT, along with some of their Cowdery relatives. They believed that they were "modern Jews", and were destined to build a temple in the USA. They did attempt to, but the project was eventually abandoned. Like most religious cults, they eventually dispersed.

Critics talk about Mormons rewriting history. I think you have done an excellent job of doing what critics are accusing the LDS doing. Have you ever read Ethan book?

 

[Myrtle Stics]

JS's original "translated" handwritten manuscript has never been revealed to the world to examine either. How utterly convenient for them to have "lost" that, too. LOST IT??? The "most important, most pure book in the world", and they.... LOSE it??? JS didn't think much of his "treasure", did he? Sounds more like he hid the damning evidence--against him.

If you have trouble believing in things you can't see then how do you believe in God?

 

[fatboys]

Con men usually don't rat each other out. It makes them look bad, especially when they have moved on to other cons, as did every one of those men. So how did they all end up?

Three witnesses:
* Martin Harris had been known as superstitious since boyhood, telling wild tales and believing in ghosts. JS told Harris he could not look at the plates or he and his family would be cursed. After Lucy Harris, Martins wife, refused to give back the 116 pages of copy, Smith claimed to have received a revelation re: Harris, calling him wicked and boastful. But JS still took Harris's money. Harris gave false prophecies in 1830 re: Jackson being the last US president if everyone didn't become Mormon within a year, Palmyra NY would become the New Jerusalem, and its streets would be paved with gold. After Lucy's death, 53 year old Harris married BY's 22-year-old niece, who eventually left him like Lucy. Harris left the LDS after finding out the Kirtland Bank was a fraud, and was excommed. He reversed his claim of ever physically seeing the plates, except in imagination, then claimed no one had ever seen them either. He called JS an imposter and a knave. Harris rejoined the LDS shortly before his death, pennyless and alone. He had been the member of more than 12 different churches.

* Oliver Cowdery: Cowdery hunted for buried treasure using a divining rod when young. Later he lodged with his Smith cousins, where JS "told him about the plates". Cowdery married David Whitmer's sister. Cowdery and his family attended the Congregational Church in VT when its minister was the Rev. Ethan Smith, author of View of the Hebrews. Cowdery was named president of JS's Kirtland Bank branch of Monroe Bank in MI, in which the LDS held the controlling interest. Both banks failed. He later joined the Tiffin Methodist Church which would have made him renounce the BoM before joining. In 1839 he published a tract rejecting the LDS. He rejoined the LDS shortly before his death---alone, destitute and sick. He didn't testify to the BoM's authentication UNTIL he had rejoined and was being supported by the LDS. Before they would take him in, BY ordered him to sign a testimony re: the BoM's "authentication" and that he had no designs upon "authority" within the LDS, thus eliminating any threat against BY's presidency. He signed. If he hadn't? They would have tossed him out on his ear. He died before he could reach Salt Lake City, Utah.

* David Whitmer, lifelong friend of Cowdery, founded his own con, cashing in on the BoM, the Whitmerite Church of Christ, defunct since the 1960's. He denounced all other Mormon branches but his own. He, like Harris, resigned from the LDS over the Kirtland Bank fiasco. He once said, "As to the High Priesthood, Jesus Christ himself is the last Great High Priest, this too after the order of Melchisedec, as I understand the Holy Scriptures". How interesting.

The eight witnesses were all members of either the Whitmer family, or the Smith family---red flag #1:
* Christian, Jacob, Peter, John Jr. were all Whitmers.
* Hiram Page (Smith cousin), Joseph Smith Sr. (JS's father), Hyrum and Samuel Smith (JS's brothers).

As one instance of such people, Hiram Page started his own rival church in 1830 while living with the Whitmer family, using a seerstone he claimed to receive revelations from. Cowdery and Whitmer believed these "revelations" were just as true as JS's. However, JS convinced Page his "revelations" were evil and Page destroyed his seerstone. Later, in 1832, Page moved his family to Ohio where he had bought a considerable amount of land, and the Whitmer's followed along with JS's family. They tried to found a town called the "Whitmer Settlement", but were tossed out of the area. He eventually became a member of David Whitmer's church. NOT the LDS.

As a side note, JS's family were early members of a weird radical Congregationalist sect called the New Israelites in VT, along with some of their Cowdery relatives. They believed that they were "modern Jews", and were destined to build a temple in the USA. They did attempt to, but the project was eventually abandoned. Like most religious cults, they eventually dispersed.

Who ever you got your information from didn't have any sources to back up this claim. I'm sure if someone wanted to find negative things about you they could make things up just as well. I did hear that you clip your toenails in bed.

 

[tickingclocker]

Critics talk about Mormons rewriting history. I think you have done an excellent job of doing what critics are accusing the LDS doing. Have you ever read Ethan book?

Most of the info re: witnesses lives was taken from The History of the [LDS] Church. FYI. Almost verbatim, I might add.

No, I have not read it. Why should I? I merely report the fact that he was their pastor in VT -- a VERY interesting "coincidence".

 

[tickingclocker]

If you have trouble believing in things you can't see then how do you believe in God?

I don't have any trouble believing in God. He's all around us, in living color and action. You have to know where to look, and how. The BoM doesn't follow within the guidelines of those two established rules.

 

[tickingclocker]

Who ever you got your information from didn't have any sources to back up this claim. I'm sure if someone wanted to find negative things about you they could make things up just as well. I did hear that you clip your toenails in bed.

What makes you assume that your church history is squeaky clean? Those men were just that. Human MEN, fallible human beings, just like you, just like me. They didn't have any shady deals going on behind the scenes? History has proof they did. They didn't leave the LDS over Kirtland Bank and call JS those things? Then why did the LDS have to "reinstate" two of them, when they went crawling back to them when they had nothing and no one? David Whitmer was the only one who didn't die a pauper, because he found a way to make a living off his own BoM cash cow, the [Whitmerite] Church of Christ. They didn't believe in ghosts, in revelation, in seerstones? Then neither did JS, because he, too, believed in all those things right along with them.

There are no secrets. Unless your church has kept them from.... you. Or, maybe its you who refuses to face the realities of them? IDK. You tell me.

Your attempt at sarcasm essentially invalidates your weak defense. You have no sources which invalidate my sources.

 

[fatboys]

Most of the info re: witnesses lives was taken from The History of the [LDS] Church. FYI. Almost verbatim, I might add.

No, I have not read it. Why should I? I merely report the fact that he was their pastor in VT -- a VERY interesting "coincidence".

then you came to your own conclusions and made it up

 

[mmksparbud]

then you came to your own conclusions and made it up

If she made it up---then your church made it up???

Most of the info re: witnesses lives was taken from The History of the [LDS] Church. FYI. Almost verbatim, I might add.

 

[tickingclocker]

then you came to your own conclusions and made it up

What conclusions? Made what up?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Critics talk about Mormons rewriting history. I think you have done an excellent job of doing what critics are accusing the LDS doing. Have you ever read Ethan book?

B. Overview of the three witnesses:

1. Most of the witnesses are related by blood.
2. The three witnesses were all of questionable character
3. Joseph Smith said Dec 16, 1838, "Such characters as McLellin, John Witmer, David Witmer, Oliver Cowdry, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." History of the Church, Vol 3, p232
4. Brigham Young said, "Some of the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel." (Journal of Discourses, Vol 7, page 164, 1859, Brigham Young.)
5. All three witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the Mormon church.
6. Two of the three witnesses who were excommunicated from the Mormon church later returned to the church after denying their testimony. Imagine if any one of the apostles denied their witness that Jesus rose from the dead, were kicked out of the early church, then returned again. Their testimony would be of no value. Remember that all three denied the Mormon faith at one point, and one never came back to the Mormon church going to his grave denying his testimony, yet Mormons still use his testimony for the book of Mormon. In fact, David Whitmer never returned to the LDS church that he was a witness for, but joined splinter groups that denied the original LDS church he was first a member of.

C. Specific details of the three witnesses:

False Witness #1: Martin Harris:

1. Was known for being very unstable religiously. Over his whole life he changed his affiliation over 13 times.
2. Martin Harris was first a Quaker, then a Universalist, next a Restorationist, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon.(Mormonism Unveiled, E. D. Howe, 1834, pp. 260-261)
3. After Martin Harris' excommunication in 1837, he changed his religion eight more times, going from the Shakers to one Mormon splinter group to the next, and back to the main group in 1842.(Improvement Era, March 1969, p. 63 and Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 164, Brigham Young)
4. In 1846, (after his excommunication in 1837) Martin Harris was preaching among the Saints in England for the Apostate James J. Strang. (Church Chronology, Andrew Jensen, 1899, p. 31; Millennial Star, vol. 8, Nov. 15, 1846, pp. 124-128.)
5. He signed his name to a statement: "Testimony of three witnesses: We Cheerfully certify...The Lord has made it known to me that David Witmer is the man. David was then called forward, and Joseph and his counselors laid hands upon him, and ordained him to his station, to succeed him...He will be prophet, seer, Revelator and Translator before God." Signed Martin Harris, Leonard Rich, Calvin Beebe. Of course this never came to pass as Brigham young became Joseph Smith's successor.
6. The Mormons stated of Martin Harris and a few other men within the pages of the church's official newspaper at the time, "a lying deceptive spirit attend them...they are of their father, the devil...The very countenance of Harris will show to every spiritual-minded person who sees him, that the wrath of God is upon him." Latter-Day Saint's, Millennial Star, Vol 8 pp124-128.
7. Phineas Young wrote to his older brother Brigham Young on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio: "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the Book of Mormon" (Martin Harris - Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52)
8. Martin Harris testified that his testimony for Shakerism was greater than it was for Mormonism. The Shaker's "Sacred Roll and Book" was also delivered by an angel. (Case Against Mormonism, Tanner, Vol. 2, pp. 50-58; Martin Harris-Witness & Benefactor, BYU 1955 Thesis, Wayne C. Gunnell, p.52.)
9. In the Elder's Journal for August, 1838, Joseph Smith denounces Martin Harris as "so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a gentleman to make. The Church exerted some restraint on him, but now he has given loose to all kinds of abominations, lying, cheating, swindling, and all kinds of debauchery."(Gleanings by the Way, J. A. Clark, pp. 256-257)
10. Like David Whitmer, Martin Harris later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates with "the eyes of faith and not with the natural eyes". This we believe is the truth but it should eliminate him automatically as a witness none the less. This of course proves Mormonism is a fraud and that the Nephi Plates never existed and no one actually saw them. (The Braden & Kelly Debate, p. 173)

False Witness #2: David Whitmer:

1. David Whitmer said in 1887: "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints...'" Address to all believers in Christ, p27, 1887
2. David Whitmer belonged to at least three Mormon splinter groups at different times, but he died still rejecting the LDS Church and its priesthood.
3. Like Martin Harris, David Whitmer later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates "by the eye of faith" handled by an angel.(Palmyra Reflector, March 19, 1831)
4. David Whitmer changed his story about seeing the plates and later told of finding them lying in a field and later still, told Orson Pratt that they were on a table with all sorts of brass plates, gold plates, the Sword of Laban, the 'Director' and the Urim and Thumim. (Millennial Star, vol. XL, pp. 771-772)
5. During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, David Whitmer pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess (as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into 'trances.'(Biographical Sketches, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213)
6. It was the start of the finish for him. It ended in 1847 in his declaration to Oliver that he (Whitmer) was to be the Prophet of the New Church of Christ and Oliver a counsellor.(Letter to Oliver Cowdery, by David Whitmer, Sept. 8, 1847, printed in the "Ensign of Liberty," 5/1848, p. 93; also see 'Ensign of Liberty,' 8/1849, pp. 101-104)
7. In the meantime, he was excommunicated and roughly put out. His and Oliver's families were, in fact, driven into the streets and robbed by the Mormons while Whitmer and Cowdery were away trying to arrange a place to flee.(John Whitmer's History of the Church, Modern Microfilm, SLC, p. 22)
8. Cursed by leaders such as Sidney Rigdon, David Whitmer was denounced by the Prophet Joseph Smith as a "dumb beast to ride" and "an ass to bray out cursings instead of blessings." (History of the Church, vol. 3, p 228)

False Witness #3: Oliver Cowdery:

1. Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated from the Mormon church and joined the Methodist church.
2. In 1841 the Mormons published a poem which stated "Or Book of Mormon not his word, because denied by Oliver". Seasons and Times, Vol 2, p482
3. The Mormon church accused Oliver Cowdery of Adultery and claimed he had joined "a gang of counterfeiters, thieves, liars, and blacklegs".
4. Oliver Cowdery was the Church's second Elder, often called the "Second President." The early day companion of Joseph Smith, he was scribe for the Book of Mormon, present at the "Restoration of the Priesthood,' and as close to the real truth as any man.(Pearl of Great Price, JS 2:72-76)
5. However, in 1838 in Kirtland, Oliver confronted Joseph Smith with the charge of adultery with Fanny Alger, and with lying and teaching false doctrines.(Private Letter to Brother, Warren Cowdery, by Oliver Cowdery, Jan. 21, 1838)
6. Joseph Smith denied this and charged Cowdery with being a liar.(History of the Church, vol. 3 pp. 16-18 and Elder's Journal, Joseph Smith, July 1838.)
7. Church records now show Miss Alger was Smith's first "spiritual wife." Oliver was telling the truth!(Historical Record, 1886, vol. 5, p. 233)
8. Cowdery was excommunicated for this and other "crimes."(History of the Church, vol. 3, pp. 16-18) Later, as a Methodist, he denied the Book of Mormon (Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 482 and Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, p 56 and "Oliver Cowdery-The Man Outstanding," Joseph Greehalgh, 1965, p. 28)
9. Cowdery publicly confessed his sorrow and shame for his connection with Mormonism.(The True Origin of The Book of Mormon, Charles Shook, 1914, pp. 58-59)
10. While the Mormon church claims he rejoined them in the fall of 1848, (Historical Record, 1886, vol. 5, p. 201) they also accused him later that year, with trying to "raise up the Kingdom again" with the Apostate, William E. McLellin.(The Mormon frontier, Diary of Hosea Stout, vol. 2, p. 336)
11. Oliver Cowdery was publicly charged by Joseph Smith and leading Mormons with stealing, lying, perjury, counterfeiting, adultery, and being the leader of a gang of "scoundrels of the deepest degree!"(Senate Document 189, Feb. 15, 1841, pp. 6-9 and Comprehensive History of the Church, B. H. Roberts, vol. 1, pp. 438-439)
12. Joseph Smith listed Oliver Cowdery as among those, "too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." (History of the Church, vol. 3:232)
13. Oliver Cowdery died claiming that the book of Doctrines & Covenants must be discarded.

Conclusion:

1. All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.
2. Modern Mormon "spin doctors" write all kinds of articles claiming that the witnesses may have denied the Mormon church but they never the book of Mormon. Now you know that is a lie.
3. Some Mormons will agree that all three witnesses denied the book of Mormon but came back to deny their denial. Imagine the twelve apostles suddenly denying Jesus rose from the dead in public, only to ask people to ignore their denials and accept their testimony once again. This the apostles of Christ never did.
4. Only the deluded could possibly believe the outrageous fairytale called Mormonism.

 

[tickingclocker]

B. Overview of the three witnesses:

1. Most of the witnesses are related by blood.
2. The three witnesses were all of questionable character
3. Joseph Smith said Dec 16, 1838, "Such characters as McLellin, John Witmer, David Witmer, Oliver Cowdry, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." History of the Church, Vol 3, p232
4. Brigham Young said, "Some of the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel." (Journal of Discourses, Vol 7, page 164, 1859, Brigham Young.)
5. All three witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the Mormon church.
6. Two of the three witnesses who were excommunicated from the Mormon church later returned to the church after denying their testimony. Imagine if any one of the apostles denied their witness that Jesus rose from the dead, were kicked out of the early church, then returned again. Their testimony would be of no value. Remember that all three denied the Mormon faith at one point, and one never came back to the Mormon church going to his grave denying his testimony, yet Mormons still use his testimony for the book of Mormon. In fact, David Whitmer never returned to the LDS church that he was a witness for, but joined splinter groups that denied the original LDS church he was first a member of.

C. Specific details of the three witnesses:

False Witness #1: Martin Harris:

1. Was known for being very unstable religiously. Over his whole life he changed his affiliation over 13 times.
2. Martin Harris was first a Quaker, then a Universalist, next a Restorationist, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon.(Mormonism Unveiled, E. D. Howe, 1834, pp. 260-261)
3. After Martin Harris' excommunication in 1837, he changed his religion eight more times, going from the Shakers to one Mormon splinter group to the next, and back to the main group in 1842.(Improvement Era, March 1969, p. 63 and Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 164, Brigham Young)
4. In 1846, (after his excommunication in 1837) Martin Harris was preaching among the Saints in England for the Apostate James J. Strang. (Church Chronology, Andrew Jensen, 1899, p. 31; Millennial Star, vol. 8, Nov. 15, 1846, pp. 124-128.)
5. He signed his name to a statement: "Testimony of three witnesses: We Cheerfully certify...The Lord has made it known to me that David Witmer is the man. David was then called forward, and Joseph and his counselors laid hands upon him, and ordained him to his station, to succeed him...He will be prophet, seer, Revelator and Translator before God." Signed Martin Harris, Leonard Rich, Calvin Beebe. Of course this never came to pass as Brigham young became Joseph Smith's successor.
6. The Mormons stated of Martin Harris and a few other men within the pages of the church's official newspaper at the time, "a lying deceptive spirit attend them...they are of their father, the devil...The very countenance of Harris will show to every spiritual-minded person who sees him, that the wrath of God is upon him." Latter-Day Saint's, Millennial Star, Vol 8 pp124-128.
7. Phineas Young wrote to his older brother Brigham Young on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio: "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the Book of Mormon" (Martin Harris - Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52)
8. Martin Harris testified that his testimony for Shakerism was greater than it was for Mormonism. The Shaker's "Sacred Roll and Book" was also delivered by an angel. (Case Against Mormonism, Tanner, Vol. 2, pp. 50-58; Martin Harris-Witness & Benefactor, BYU 1955 Thesis, Wayne C. Gunnell, p.52.)
9. In the Elder's Journal for August, 1838, Joseph Smith denounces Martin Harris as "so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a gentleman to make. The Church exerted some restraint on him, but now he has given loose to all kinds of abominations, lying, cheating, swindling, and all kinds of debauchery."(Gleanings by the Way, J. A. Clark, pp. 256-257)
10. Like David Whitmer, Martin Harris later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates with "the eyes of faith and not with the natural eyes". This we believe is the truth but it should eliminate him automatically as a witness none the less. This of course proves Mormonism is a fraud and that the Nephi Plates never existed and no one actually saw them. (The Braden & Kelly Debate, p. 173)

False Witness #2: David Whitmer:

1. David Whitmer said in 1887: "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints...'" Address to all believers in Christ, p27, 1887
2. David Whitmer belonged to at least three Mormon splinter groups at different times, but he died still rejecting the LDS Church and its priesthood.
3. Like Martin Harris, David Whitmer later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates "by the eye of faith" handled by an angel.(Palmyra Reflector, March 19, 1831)
4. David Whitmer changed his story about seeing the plates and later told of finding them lying in a field and later still, told Orson Pratt that they were on a table with all sorts of brass plates, gold plates, the Sword of Laban, the 'Director' and the Urim and Thumim. (Millennial Star, vol. XL, pp. 771-772)
5. During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, David Whitmer pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess (as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into 'trances.'(Biographical Sketches, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213)
6. It was the start of the finish for him. It ended in 1847 in his declaration to Oliver that he (Whitmer) was to be the Prophet of the New Church of Christ and Oliver a counsellor.(Letter to Oliver Cowdery, by David Whitmer, Sept. 8, 1847, printed in the "Ensign of Liberty," 5/1848, p. 93; also see 'Ensign of Liberty,' 8/1849, pp. 101-104)
7. In the meantime, he was excommunicated and roughly put out. His and Oliver's families were, in fact, driven into the streets and robbed by the Mormons while Whitmer and Cowdery were away trying to arrange a place to flee.(John Whitmer's History of the Church, Modern Microfilm, SLC, p. 22)
8. Cursed by leaders such as Sidney Rigdon, David Whitmer was denounced by the Prophet Joseph Smith as a "dumb beast to ride" and "an ass to bray out cursings instead of blessings." (History of the Church, vol. 3, p 228)

False Witness #3: Oliver Cowdery:

1. Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated from the Mormon church and joined the Methodist church.
2. In 1841 the Mormons published a poem which stated "Or Book of Mormon not his word, because denied by Oliver". Seasons and Times, Vol 2, p482
3. The Mormon church accused Oliver Cowdery of Adultery and claimed he had joined "a gang of counterfeiters, thieves, liars, and blacklegs".
4. Oliver Cowdery was the Church's second Elder, often called the "Second President." The early day companion of Joseph Smith, he was scribe for the Book of Mormon, present at the "Restoration of the Priesthood,' and as close to the real truth as any man.(Pearl of Great Price, JS 2:72-76)
5. However, in 1838 in Kirtland, Oliver confronted Joseph Smith with the charge of adultery with Fanny Alger, and with lying and teaching false doctrines.(Private Letter to Brother, Warren Cowdery, by Oliver Cowdery, Jan. 21, 1838)
6. Joseph Smith denied this and charged Cowdery with being a liar.(History of the Church, vol. 3 pp. 16-18 and Elder's Journal, Joseph Smith, July 1838.)
7. Church records now show Miss Alger was Smith's first "spiritual wife." Oliver was telling the truth!(Historical Record, 1886, vol. 5, p. 233)
8. Cowdery was excommunicated for this and other "crimes."(History of the Church, vol. 3, pp. 16-18) Later, as a Methodist, he denied the Book of Mormon (Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 482 and Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, p 56 and "Oliver Cowdery-The Man Outstanding," Joseph Greehalgh, 1965, p. 28)
9. Cowdery publicly confessed his sorrow and shame for his connection with Mormonism.(The True Origin of The Book of Mormon, Charles Shook, 1914, pp. 58-59)
10. While the Mormon church claims he rejoined them in the fall of 1848, (Historical Record, 1886, vol. 5, p. 201) they also accused him later that year, with trying to "raise up the Kingdom again" with the Apostate, William E. McLellin.(The Mormon frontier, Diary of Hosea Stout, vol. 2, p. 336)
11. Oliver Cowdery was publicly charged by Joseph Smith and leading Mormons with stealing, lying, perjury, counterfeiting, adultery, and being the leader of a gang of "scoundrels of the deepest degree!"(Senate Document 189, Feb. 15, 1841, pp. 6-9 and Comprehensive History of the Church, B. H. Roberts, vol. 1, pp. 438-439)
12. Joseph Smith listed Oliver Cowdery as among those, "too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." (History of the Church, vol. 3:232)
13. Oliver Cowdery died claiming that the book of Doctrines & Covenants must be discarded.

Conclusion:

1. All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.
2. Modern Mormon "spin doctors" write all kinds of articles claiming that the witnesses may have denied the Mormon church but they never the book of Mormon. Now you know that is a lie.
3. Some Mormons will agree that all three witnesses denied the book of Mormon but came back to deny their denial. Imagine the twelve apostles suddenly denying Jesus rose from the dead in public, only to ask people to ignore their denials and accept their testimony once again. This the apostles of Christ never did.
4. Only the deluded could possibly believe the outrageous fairytale called Mormonism.

But, but... those are ALL DAMNABLE LIES. Just DAMNABLE!!! There isn't any proof for a SINGLE ONE OF THOSE FACTS!

Umm.... Right? You mean.... they could possibly be true? (More like a faint.) You mean... there IS proof for these facts, and much of it taken from.... actual Mormon writings and legal documents?? Say it ain't so, Ethel!

Mormonism isn't the squeaky clean shiny religion its members are taught to believe in then portray to the public. It's pretty sad that they don't know this stuff, when its available to them in their original historical records. Actually, its pretty darn nasty how all those "shining examples of 'High priesthoodism'" fought so viciously amongst themselves for a piece of the BoM quickie cash pie.

Christianity doesn't bother to hide its dirty laundry. Mormonism has to.

Excellent job on the list. Impressive. Especially when seen all in one place, instead of bits and pieces spread all over the place. Forewarning: it may be much too much for Mormons to absorb.

 

[fatboys]

B. Overview of the three witnesses:

1. Most of the witnesses are related by blood.
2. The three witnesses were all of questionable character
3. Joseph Smith said Dec 16, 1838, "Such characters as McLellin, John Witmer, David Witmer, Oliver Cowdry, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." History of the Church, Vol 3, p232
4. Brigham Young said, "Some of the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel." (Journal of Discourses, Vol 7, page 164, 1859, Brigham Young.)
5. All three witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the Mormon church.
6. Two of the three witnesses who were excommunicated from the Mormon church later returned to the church after denying their testimony. Imagine if any one of the apostles denied their witness that Jesus rose from the dead, were kicked out of the early church, then returned again. Their testimony would be of no value. Remember that all three denied the Mormon faith at one point, and one never came back to the Mormon church going to his grave denying his testimony, yet Mormons still use his testimony for the book of Mormon. In fact, David Whitmer never returned to the LDS church that he was a witness for, but joined splinter groups that denied the original LDS church he was first a member of.

C. Specific details of the three witnesses:

False Witness #1: Martin Harris:

1. Was known for being very unstable religiously. Over his whole life he changed his affiliation over 13 times.
2. Martin Harris was first a Quaker, then a Universalist, next a Restorationist, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon.(Mormonism Unveiled, E. D. Howe, 1834, pp. 260-261)
3. After Martin Harris' excommunication in 1837, he changed his religion eight more times, going from the Shakers to one Mormon splinter group to the next, and back to the main group in 1842.(Improvement Era, March 1969, p. 63 and Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 164, Brigham Young)
4. In 1846, (after his excommunication in 1837) Martin Harris was preaching among the Saints in England for the Apostate James J. Strang. (Church Chronology, Andrew Jensen, 1899, p. 31; Millennial Star, vol. 8, Nov. 15, 1846, pp. 124-128.)
5. He signed his name to a statement: "Testimony of three witnesses: We Cheerfully certify...The Lord has made it known to me that David Witmer is the man. David was then called forward, and Joseph and his counselors laid hands upon him, and ordained him to his station, to succeed him...He will be prophet, seer, Revelator and Translator before God." Signed Martin Harris, Leonard Rich, Calvin Beebe. Of course this never came to pass as Brigham young became Joseph Smith's successor.
6. The Mormons stated of Martin Harris and a few other men within the pages of the church's official newspaper at the time, "a lying deceptive spirit attend them...they are of their father, the devil...The very countenance of Harris will show to every spiritual-minded person who sees him, that the wrath of God is upon him." Latter-Day Saint's, Millennial Star, Vol 8 pp124-128.
7. Phineas Young wrote to his older brother Brigham Young on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio: "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the Book of Mormon" (Martin Harris - Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52)
8. Martin Harris testified that his testimony for Shakerism was greater than it was for Mormonism. The Shaker's "Sacred Roll and Book" was also delivered by an angel. (Case Against Mormonism, Tanner, Vol. 2, pp. 50-58; Martin Harris-Witness & Benefactor, BYU 1955 Thesis, Wayne C. Gunnell, p.52.)
9. In the Elder's Journal for August, 1838, Joseph Smith denounces Martin Harris as "so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a gentleman to make. The Church exerted some restraint on him, but now he has given loose to all kinds of abominations, lying, cheating, swindling, and all kinds of debauchery."(Gleanings by the Way, J. A. Clark, pp. 256-257)
10. Like David Whitmer, Martin Harris later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates with "the eyes of faith and not with the natural eyes". This we believe is the truth but it should eliminate him automatically as a witness none the less. This of course proves Mormonism is a fraud and that the Nephi Plates never existed and no one actually saw them. (The Braden & Kelly Debate, p. 173)

False Witness #2: David Whitmer:

1. David Whitmer said in 1887: "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints...'" Address to all believers in Christ, p27, 1887
2. David Whitmer belonged to at least three Mormon splinter groups at different times, but he died still rejecting the LDS Church and its priesthood.
3. Like Martin Harris, David Whitmer later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates "by the eye of faith" handled by an angel.(Palmyra Reflector, March 19, 1831)
4. David Whitmer changed his story about seeing the plates and later told of finding them lying in a field and later still, told Orson Pratt that they were on a table with all sorts of brass plates, gold plates, the Sword of Laban, the 'Director' and the Urim and Thumim. (Millennial Star, vol. XL, pp. 771-772)
5. During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, David Whitmer pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess (as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into 'trances.'(Biographical Sketches, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213)
6. It was the start of the finish for him. It ended in 1847 in his declaration to Oliver that he (Whitmer) was to be the Prophet of the New Church of Christ and Oliver a counsellor.(Letter to Oliver Cowdery, by David Whitmer, Sept. 8, 1847, printed in the "Ensign of Liberty," 5/1848, p. 93; also see 'Ensign of Liberty,' 8/1849, pp. 101-104)
7. In the meantime, he was excommunicated and roughly put out. His and Oliver's families were, in fact, driven into the streets and robbed by the Mormons while Whitmer and Cowdery were away trying to arrange a place to flee.(John Whitmer's History of the Church, Modern Microfilm, SLC, p. 22)
8. Cursed by leaders such as Sidney Rigdon, David Whitmer was denounced by the Prophet Joseph Smith as a "dumb beast to ride" and "an ass to bray out cursings instead of blessings." (History of the Church, vol. 3, p 228)

False Witness #3: Oliver Cowdery:

1. Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated from the Mormon church and joined the Methodist church.
2. In 1841 the Mormons published a poem which stated "Or Book of Mormon not his word, because denied by Oliver". Seasons and Times, Vol 2, p482
3. The Mormon church accused Oliver Cowdery of Adultery and claimed he had joined "a gang of counterfeiters, thieves, liars, and blacklegs".
4. Oliver Cowdery was the Church's second Elder, often called the "Second President." The early day companion of Joseph Smith, he was scribe for the Book of Mormon, present at the "Restoration of the Priesthood,' and as close to the real truth as any man.(Pearl of Great Price, JS 2:72-76)
5. However, in 1838 in Kirtland, Oliver confronted Joseph Smith with the charge of adultery with Fanny Alger, and with lying and teaching false doctrines.(Private Letter to Brother, Warren Cowdery, by Oliver Cowdery, Jan. 21, 1838)
6. Joseph Smith denied this and charged Cowdery with being a liar.(History of the Church, vol. 3 pp. 16-18 and Elder's Journal, Joseph Smith, July 1838.)
7. Church records now show Miss Alger was Smith's first "spiritual wife." Oliver was telling the truth!(Historical Record, 1886, vol. 5, p. 233)
8. Cowdery was excommunicated for this and other "crimes."(History of the Church, vol. 3, pp. 16-18) Later, as a Methodist, he denied the Book of Mormon (Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 482 and Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, p 56 and "Oliver Cowdery-The Man Outstanding," Joseph Greehalgh, 1965, p. 28)
9. Cowdery publicly confessed his sorrow and shame for his connection with Mormonism.(The True Origin of The Book of Mormon, Charles Shook, 1914, pp. 58-59)
10. While the Mormon church claims he rejoined them in the fall of 1848, (Historical Record, 1886, vol. 5, p. 201) they also accused him later that year, with trying to "raise up the Kingdom again" with the Apostate, William E. McLellin.(The Mormon frontier, Diary of Hosea Stout, vol. 2, p. 336)
11. Oliver Cowdery was publicly charged by Joseph Smith and leading Mormons with stealing, lying, perjury, counterfeiting, adultery, and being the leader of a gang of "scoundrels of the deepest degree!"(Senate Document 189, Feb. 15, 1841, pp. 6-9 and Comprehensive History of the Church, B. H. Roberts, vol. 1, pp. 438-439)
12. Joseph Smith listed Oliver Cowdery as among those, "too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." (History of the Church, vol. 3:232)
13. Oliver Cowdery died claiming that the book of Doctrines & Covenants must be discarded.

Conclusion:

1. All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.
2. Modern Mormon "spin doctors" write all kinds of articles claiming that the witnesses may have denied the Mormon church but they never the book of Mormon. Now you know that is a lie.
3. Some Mormons will agree that all three witnesses denied the book of Mormon but came back to deny their denial. Imagine the twelve apostles suddenly denying Jesus rose from the dead in public, only to ask people to ignore their denials and accept their testimony once again. This the apostles of Christ never did.
4. Only the deluded could possibly believe the outrageous fairytale called Mormonism.

You have got to be kidding.i was listening to the radio yesterday about conspiracy theory's. They said the number one conspiracy is the John f Kennedy assassination. They even have a conspir-at-sea cruise where there is a conference about all the conspiracy there are presented. I think you guys would fit right in

 

[tickingclocker]

You have got to be kidding.

What could Dan possibly be kidding about? Have you assumed all Mormon history is/should be written by (read sanitized) and for Mormons? Would that really be such a good idea? Do you believe there should only be one perspective on mormonism in this world, where the vast majority of humanity has never even heard of mormonism? Unlike Christianity, where most people have heard of it and know what it stands for?

The Message of the Cross is indeed mere folly to those who are in the path to Ruin, but to us who are in the path of Salvation it is the very power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

 

[mmksparbud]

You have got to be kidding.i was listening to the radio yesterday about conspiracy theory's. They said the number one conspiracy is the John f Kennedy assassination. They even have a conspir-at-sea cruise where there is a conference about all the conspiracy there are presented. I think you guys would fit right in

No rebuttal with facts--just a "you've got to be kidding." Is that because you have none? After all, it all comes from your own historical records. Maybe you need a little more time to check it out.

 

[fatboys]

What could Dan possibly be kidding about? Have you assumed all Mormon history is/should be written by (read sanitized) and for Mormons? Would that really be such a good idea? Do you believe there should only be one perspective on mormonism in this world, where the vast majority of humanity has never even heard of mormonism? Unlike Christianity, where most people have heard of it and know what it stands for?

The Message of the Cross is indeed mere folly to those who are in the path to Ruin, but to us who are in the path of Salvation it is the very power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

If he had any substance at all in what he presented it would be interesting but he present a big amount of nothing and most of it was opinion. You sit and say the church has sanitized our history. You guys are worse than what you claim we do. You in vent our history with nothing more than your own opinions and expect us to say "oh wow that makes sense". I have studied church history on both sides for many years. Of course the church is going to try and present itself in the best light possible. That is human nature. So I take that for what it is worth. But I also find that those who are critical of the church want to pant the church in the worse possible light. Those that were part of church history and were or became critical of the church will present the imperfections of man as there reasons for their critical view. This is a easy attack because we know there has only been one perfect person. Joseph Smith was not that one perfect person. Wasn't even close. To compound them perfections the members were far from perfect as well. Your and all critics problem you think that if Joseph Smith was a prophet he should have not made mistakes. That is a double standard because we know tha not one single prophet in biblical history was perfect and you do not hold them to the same standard as you hold Joseph Smith to. I have studied and read a lot of histories from church members of that time. You haven't. I have a better understanding of the history than you're opinion and conspiracy theories.
I bet that you have read very little of positive history about church. Your sole purpose here is to present what you think is the truth about Joseph Smith and the church even if you know that it is not true or half true mixed in with your mind reading abilities and and your priceless opinions. This does not make what you have to say much credibility. What is funny to me is when critics do these things they expect me to say "the church is false because you said it was false. This is no different than being at a Mormon event and you guys yelling we are going to hell.
I have told this story before but I drive school bus and I was on a extra run taking a church group down to temple square. There were two buses and me and this other driver were walking around when we were approached by a young man handing out anti Mormon. Of course I love to engage him. We talked for a couple of hours and then I asked him where he was from. He said he was from Virginia or someplace back east. Anyway I asked him why he was out here. He said that he was on a mission of a sorts. I said explain. He said that the members of his church hired him to come out here to save souls. I said save us from what. He said hell. I asked him how do you know we need saving. He said because you don't believe in just the bible. You believe in a different Jesus. You know the usual dribble. Then I asked him how do you know you believe in the right Jesus. He said because it is the one from the bible. I asked him how do you know that the Jesus you say you believe in us the one in the bible. I then said instead of trying to tear down my church present to me your truth as you understand it. If it is something that is more than what I have I will change in a second. He wasn't prepared to present anything but tearing down my beliefs. So I left him. You guys are no different. Present your truth. Stop with the stupid attacks. Present to me what you value as truth. If it is more than what I have then I will change.

 

[mmksparbud]

So no sources that state these things are false. Just a bunch of opinions and philosophical believes but no facts yet. Facts from your own writings were presented and you have nothing to counter with? So these facts stand then?

 

[tickingclocker]

If he had any substance at all in what he presented it would be interesting but he present a big amount of nothing and most of it was opinion. You sit and say the church has sanitized our history. You guys are worse than what you claim we do. You in vent our history with nothing more than your own opinions and expect us to say "oh wow that makes sense". I have studied church history on both sides for many years. Of course the church is going to try and present itself in the best light possible. That is human nature. So I take that for what it is worth. But I also find that those who are critical of the church want to pant the church in the worse possible light. Those that were part of church history and were or became critical of the church will present the imperfections of man as there reasons for their critical view. This is a easy attack because we know there has only been one perfect person. Joseph Smith was not that one perfect person. Wasn't even close. To compound them perfections the members were far from perfect as well. Your and all critics problem you think that if Joseph Smith was a prophet he should have not made mistakes. That is a double standard because we know tha not one single prophet in biblical history was perfect and you do not hold them to the same standard as you hold Joseph Smith to. I have studied and read a lot of histories from church members of that time. You haven't. I have a better understanding of the history than you're opinion and conspiracy theories.
I bet that you have read very little of positive history about church. Your sole purpose here is to present what you think is the truth about Joseph Smith and the church even if you know that it is not true or half true mixed in with your mind reading abilities and and your priceless opinions. This does not make what you have to say much credibility. What is funny to me is when critics do these things they expect me to say "the church is false because you said it was false. This is no different than being at a Mormon event and you guys yelling we are going to hell.
I have told this story before but I drive school bus and I was on a extra run taking a church group down to temple square. There were two buses and me and this other driver were walking around when we were approached by a young man handing out anti Mormon. Of course I love to engage him. We talked for a couple of hours and then I asked him where he was from. He said he was from Virginia or someplace back east. Anyway I asked him why he was out here. He said that he was on a mission of a sorts. I said explain. He said that the members of his church hired him to come out here to save souls. I said save us from what. He said hell. I asked him how do you know we need saving. He said because you don't believe in just the bible. You believe in a different Jesus. You know the usual dribble. Then I asked him how do you know you believe in the right Jesus. He said because it is the one from the bible. I asked him how do you know that the Jesus you say you believe in us the one in the bible. I then said instead of trying to tear down my church present to me your truth as you understand it. If it is something that is more than what I have I will change in a second. He wasn't prepared to present anything but tearing down my beliefs. So I left him. You guys are no different. Present your truth. Stop with the stupid attacks. Present to me what you value as truth. If it is more than what I have then I will change.

And what, pray tell, do you assume you are doing here, FB? NOT presenting your opinion as fact? How can we possibly "invent" your history, when so much of what Dan and I both listed was taken FROM Mormon sources, at times verbatim? Conclusions, of course, are opinion. But not the historical facts taken directly from Mormon history itself! We cannot help it if we know your history more than you have been allowed to learn. Even your own church has admitted it sanitized much its own history to its members and the public, through the Essays! Or they wouldn't exist. Try not avoiding the truth as instant "anti" poison, and you might be able to look your own religion in the face someday. I had to with Christianity. The facts are the facts. It's messy here on earth, dealing in humanity. Face it.

It's so odd that the LDS saved so much of JS's writings and dealings, yet they failed to remember where they last put down his original, handwritten manuscript of a book that they claim knocked all Christianity on its head?? Did they learn their lesson? If so, then why does that lesson tend to bite them back so very often with revealing facts that they failed to teach their own membership? So odd. Why would a church which bills itself "the most perfect church on earth" not teach genuine, unvarnished truth about itself? Who respects anyone who smooths over their every fault then pretends they are perfect? NOBODY.

Yes, it IS "human nature" to promote itself in the best possible light. You got that right. But, why? Because its the inherent sin of pride which encourages such a thing. But that is still not believing in the TRUTH, which only the Spirit of the Lord can operate in. The Spirit unvarnishes the truth in human lies, and makes no apology for it. Why should it?

These historical facts are neither negative nor positive. The truth is neither, being the TRUTH. It just... IS. Like God. We cannot help it if the LDS tends toward hiding these historical facts from its members, and to their ultimate detriment (as naturally turns out to be the case). Stop sounding like its OUR fault that your church did this to you! It's not our fault, but yours for not looking at your faith from all sides except the, yes, sanitized one you wish to accept! That would be like me resenting Christianity for hiding its horrors of the Crusades. Oh, wait. It doesn't. And I still trust Christianity, despite all the horrors done "in Christ's name".

Stop trying to suborn this into being about whether JS was a perfect person or not. Prophets were not perfect, but the Word of God they proclaimed through the Holy Spirit IS PERFECT, being divine. Jeremiah constantly whined over his circumstances. Look what happened to him for doing so? He was banished to Egypt by the Lord, despite God fore-knowing he would become His voice to the Jews. God uses humans, fully knowing humans are not perfect. Not yet. So its not about JS being "perfect" or not. His prophecies are FAULTY. That's the key to dismissing mormonism. Not JS's personality or dealings with other humans. It's not about him. Not at all. It's about the truthful history of the entire LDS movement. People will continually bring these truths up to Mormons faces until THEY start facing them. For your own good! Shouldn't you examine your faith to see if its real or not? Only a stubborn sinner refuses to examine their own faith to see if it will withstand the test of truthfulness.

Scrutinize yourselves as to whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed you are reprobates? (2 Cor 13:5)

For I am persuaded that––neither death nor life, nor messengers nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38, 39)

Don't you have this complete and utter assurance in examining your faith---from ALL angles? Or why are you here on a Christian forum in the first place if you refuse to truly and honestly confront your own religious history? A friend of mine once told me, without telling him she put every test possible before her fiance to see if he really meant what he said about loving her, and wanting to marry her. She knew she loved him, but didn't quite trust if he did her. (Her own parents said the same thing but they divorced.) He passed every test with flying colors and then some. I literally cringed when hearing what she put that poor man through! Now? Even HE knows he loves her without any doubt as well!! It's a win-win situation whenever you determine to face the whole truth and nothing but. Shouldn't you want to, when here its such a critical part of eternity?

You really don't want the truth if anything else is the case. You essentially deny your own religious heritage because it simply doesn't fit with what you wish to believe about it. That's not faith. That's belief in your belief---no "God" in it except your own idol. You. Because that is essentially what you just revealed when you said "present to me what you value as truth". Don't you get it by now?? It's never going to be about what we think or believe, or even what you think or believe. It's ALL about what IS, according to GOD, who we all WILL face someday. No one will be facing each other, but Him alone. I'd want to be absolute sure about what I place faith in, from every angle out there. Wouldn't you?

 

[fatboys]

And what, pray tell, do you assume you are doing here, FB? NOT presenting your opinion as fact? How can we possibly "invent" your history, when so much of what Dan and I both listed was taken FROM Mormon sources, at times verbatim? Conclusions, of course, are opinion. But not the historical facts taken directly from Mormon history itself! We cannot help it if we know your history more than you have been allowed to learn. Even your own church has admitted it sanitized much its own history to its members and the public, through the Essays! Or they wouldn't exist. Try not avoiding the truth as instant "anti" poison, and you might be able to look your own religion in the face someday. I had to with Christianity. The facts are the facts. It's messy here on earth, dealing in humanity. Face it.

It's so odd that the LDS saved so much of JS's writings and dealings, yet they failed to remember where they last put down his original, handwritten manuscript of a book that they claim knocked all Christianity on its head?? Did they learn their lesson? If so, then why does that lesson tend to bite them back so very often with revealing facts that they failed to teach their own membership? So odd. Why would a church which bills itself "the most perfect church on earth" not teach genuine, unvarnished truth about itself? Who respects anyone who smooths over their every fault then pretends they are perfect? NOBODY.

Yes, it IS "human nature" to promote itself in the best possible light. You got that right. But, why? Because its the inherent sin of pride which encourages such a thing. But that is still not believing in the TRUTH, which only the Spirit of the Lord can operate in. The Spirit unvarnishes the truth in human lies, and makes no apology for it. Why should it?

These historical facts are neither negative nor positive. The truth is neither, being the TRUTH. It just... IS. Like God. We cannot help it if the LDS tends toward hiding these historical facts from its members, and to their ultimate detriment (as naturally turns out to be the case). Stop sounding like its OUR fault that your church did this to you! It's not our fault, but yours for not looking at your faith from all sides except the, yes, sanitized one you wish to accept! That would be like me resenting Christianity for hiding its horrors of the Crusades. Oh, wait. It doesn't. And I still trust Christianity, despite all the horrors done "in Christ's name".

Stop trying to suborn this into being about whether JS was a perfect person or not. Prophets were not perfect, but the Word of God they proclaimed through the Holy Spirit IS PERFECT, being divine. Jeremiah constantly whined over his circumstances. Look what happened to him for doing so? He was banished to Egypt by the Lord, despite God fore-knowing he would become His voice to the Jews. God uses humans, fully knowing humans are not perfect. Not yet. So its not about JS being "perfect" or not. His prophecies are FAULTY. That's the key to dismissing mormonism. Not JS's personality or dealings with other humans. It's not about him. Not at all. It's about the truthful history of the entire LDS movement. People will continually bring these truths up to Mormons faces until THEY start facing them. For your own good! Shouldn't you examine your faith to see if its real or not? Only a stubborn sinner refuses to examine their own faith to see if it will withstand the test of truthfulness.

Scrutinize yourselves as to whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed you are reprobates? (2 Cor 13:5)

For I am persuaded that––neither death nor life, nor messengers nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38, 39)

Don't you have this complete and utter assurance in examining your faith---from ALL angles? Or why are you here on a Christian forum in the first place if you refuse to truly and honestly confront your own religious history? A friend of mine once told me, without telling him she put every test possible before her fiance to see if he really meant what he said about loving her, and wanting to marry her. She knew she loved him, but didn't quite trust if he did her. (Her own parents said the same thing but they divorced.) He passed every test with flying colors and then some. I literally cringed when hearing what she put that poor man through! Now? Even HE knows he loves her without any doubt as well!! It's a win-win situation whenever you determine to face the whole truth and nothing but. Shouldn't you want to, when here its such a critical part of eternity?

You really don't want the truth if anything else is the case. You essentially deny your own religious heritage because it simply doesn't fit with what you wish to believe about it. That's not faith. That's belief in your belief---no "God" in it except your own idol. You. Because that is essentially what you just revealed when you said "present to me what you value as truth". Don't you get it by now?? It's never going to be about what we think or believe, or even what you think or believe. It's ALL about what IS, according to GOD, who we all WILL face someday. No one will be facing each other, but Him alone. I'd want to be absolute sure about what I place faith in, from every angle out there. Wouldn't you?

You guys make me laugh. You think the way you interpret scriptures is the only way. You think that the only way you look at our history is right. Everything you post about our church is what you think is right about the church. You present some facts and then I interject you own opinion with no facts. It's a bunch of garbage her you think you have it right and it just makes me laugh as to how deluded you have become since you have been on this forum. How bitter you sound. Again present your truth. That is what Jesus did