How does one come to believe something?

[Arsenios]

But because your distinction between what is "carnal" and what is "spiritual" is based on "because I say so"... there is no way to determine any "not carnally attributable" encounters.

You deny the existence of spiritual events, and attribute their accounts as imaginary, yes?

So you simply do not have a basis for an opinion...

And the rebuttal will be found in the fact that spiritual men and women know well the difference between a spiritual event and imagination, and their inter-relatedness...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Or, open your eyes and see things for what they are.

Those dues are paid...

Whoever dies with the most THINGS...

Dies...

Are you ever gonna tell me about your moniker?

Arsenios

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Reasoned argument led to the labor camp deaths of millions in Siberia under the atheists...

Yes, you're right; we should never use it again

It occurs to me that dreadful crimes against humanity have also been committed in the name of religion... should we therefore forbid that too?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The study I was referring to is old now - Perhaps new ones are not repeating the earlier results...

Reducing prayer to scientific methodology has its own hazards...

Oh noes, we've broken prayer!

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, you're right; we should never use it again

You are arguing from objects to subjects, and then insisting that subjects function only as objects...

Where a thought is the soap-suds of mixing soap and water... eg A biophysical consequence of the materiality of the brain...

It occurs to me that dreadful crimes against humanity have also been committed in the name of religion... should we therefore forbid that too?

That is another clue... For the need to discern the spirits...

You want object-constricted rationality to determine mental cognition...

'Tain't necessarily so!

Reason is not the absolute you insist it is...

A changed life from a frying pan upside the head does not argue against a changed life from an encounter with a demon, or with God... There is plenty of evidence of all three...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Oh noes, we've broken prayer!

I tell the truth that I am unfamiliar with your recent experiments
and you are rejoicing in thinking you have won the argument?

OK... But...

Ya gotta admit you are merely splashing toddlers in the wading pool...

Think O-C-E-A-N ...

The issues are way bigger than the latest sociological test-tube testings...

Arsenios

 

[HitchSlap]

You deny the existence of spiritual events, and attribute their accounts as imaginary, yes?

So you simply do not have a basis for an opinion...

And the rebuttal will be found in the fact that spiritual men and women know well the difference between a spiritual event and imagination, and their inter-relatedness...

Arsenios

So only those who believe in garden fairies are able to see them?

 

[quatona]

Reasoned argument led to the labor camp deaths of millions in Siberia under the atheists...

Which reasoned argument was that?

 

[Ana the Ist]

So I did mean yes, because any life-changing encounter that is not attributable to our carnal and oh so very physical world will thereby io-ipso have to be attributed to non-carnal and non-physical cause...

The thing is, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], while I'm sure you believe this is true...your beliefs aren't "evidence".

Moreover, you're never going to show/demonstrate that any "life-changing experience" did not originate from something "carnal" as you like to put it....so this makes your claims of evidence just that-empty claims. I could just as easily say that all of your experiences are caused by something "carnal" and I'd actually have more evidence because I can point to experiences and their "carnal" causes. That's not something that you can do for your "non-carnal" experiences.

You deny such a cause exists, either holy or demonic... And this because you have no first hand experience on which to empirically base such a claim...

It's not just that I have no firsthand experiences with the "holy" or "demonic"....it's also that you cannot provide evidence for them either.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The study I was referring to is old now - Perhaps new ones are not repeating the earlier results...

I'm always interested in studies...new or old...so if you have one you'd like to talk about, link it up.

Reducing prayer to scientific methodology has its own hazards...

Arsenios

The only hazard I see is the possibility of emotional distress from trying to cling to a belief that's proven untrue. Since those struggles can lead to personal growth and a better understanding of the truth...I tend to think it's worth the risk.

 

[Arsenios]

Which reasoned argument was that?

The one(s) the atheists in Russia believed...

It might have been the one that said: IF you don't put others in the labor camps to die, then YOU will be put in them to die... Atheists do not have a stellar human rights record in the 20th century...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So only those who believe in garden fairies are able to see them?

I dunno...

Are YOU a garden fairy???

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The thing is, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], while I'm sure you believe this is true...your beliefs aren't "evidence".

Kinda counter-intuitive, huh?

I could just as easily say that all of your experiences are caused by something "carnal" and I'd actually have more evidence because I can point to experiences and their "carnal" causes.

Such as the thoughts you have concerning carnal causes?

It's not just that I have no firsthand experiences with the "holy" or "demonic"....it's also that you cannot provide evidence for them either.

You have to be patient...

I sometimes think experience is the ONLY teacher...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I'm always interested in studies...new or old...so if you have one you'd like to talk about, link it up.

Sorry - It was some years ago, and I did not keep track of it...

The only hazard I see is the possibility of emotional distress from trying to cling to a belief that's proven untrue. Since those struggles can lead to personal growth and a better understanding of the truth...I tend to think it's worth the risk.

That is the only frame of reference you have, so of course you will think so...

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You deny the existence of spiritual events, and attribute their accounts as imaginary, yes?

I don't. I do say that there's currently no reason to believe any of that without good evidence. Evidence that you so far haven't provided.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Kinda counter-intuitive, huh?

No...not really. It's something that seems so obvious that sometimes I'm disappointed by how often I have to point it out. Beliefs aren't evidence.

Such as the thoughts you have concerning carnal causes?

Not sure what you're asking me there....

My point was all this "carnal knowledge" as you call it is quite often based upon what actually exists in reality. Your spiritual knowledge on the other hand, appears to only exist in your mind...like imaginary things and daydreams.

You have to be patient...

I sometimes think experience is the ONLY teacher...

Arsenios

Thankfully, it's not...or else each generation would have to slowly relearn what each generation before it knew.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sorry - It was some years ago, and I did not keep track of it...

Believe me when I say I'm not surprised.

That is the only frame of reference you have, so of course you will think so...

Arsenios

If you disagree....and have some other hazard in mind....let's hear it.


Would you at least agree that you've got no means of demonstrating that prayer works?

 

[Ana the Ist]

You deny the existence of spiritual events, and attribute their accounts as imaginary, yes?

Why don't we make this simple?

Let's pretend for a moment that you have some spiritual knowledge....and you share it with me. Then someone else makes the claim that they too have "spiritual knowledge" and they share it with me....and it completely contradicts everything you said.

How does someone go about determining which set of spiritual knowledge is true and which isn't?

 

[quatona]

The one(s) the atheists in Russia believed...

I meant to ask what the "reasoned argument" said.

It might have been the one that said: IF you don't put others in the labor camps to die, then YOU will be put in them to die...[/quote]
Ah, in your previous post you made it almost sound like you knew what the reasoned argument.

Atheists do not have a stellar human rights record in the 20th century...

The same is true for people with moustaches and shepherd dogs.

 

[Freodin]

You deny the existence of spiritual events, and attribute their accounts as imaginary, yes?

No.
See, it is statements like this that makes me doubt the claims of "spiritual" people like you.

I'd assume that a "spiritual" person - one with a connection to an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent deity that cares about you as well as me - would at least be able to talk from a position of wisdom and understanding, of "truth".
Not even necessarily from a position of higher "knowledge" (though that would be nice), but at least correct.

So when you make a statement that I can identify as obviously incorrect, I wonder: why do you do that? Is this your "carnal" self speaking here? Where is your "spiritual" self here?

Do you ever pray before posting here? Ask your God for understanding? For insight into the position of your opposite?
Perhaps you should do that.

And it is not even that you need a special divine revelation into my though process to understand. I have expressed my concerns regarding these "spiritual encounters" right here on this forum in other threads. It would take just a little spiritual nudge from God to point you in the right direction.

These are the spiritual events that, surprisingly, never happen.

But go on, show me wrong!

So you simply do not have a basis for an opinion...

But I do. Even if I were to categorically deny the existence of "spiritual events"... if you could demonstrate a distinction between "carnal" and "spiritual" that is not based on your "because I say so as a spiritual person who knows the difference"... I would be refuted.

But you cannot. This inablity is the basis for my opinion.

And the rebuttal will be found in the fact that spiritual men and women know well the difference between a spiritual event and imagination, and their inter-relatedness...

Arsenios

Whereas "spiritial men and women" are those who agree with you when you say "because I say so".

See... you don't know me. You don't know what kind of "experiences" I had, what conclusions (or questions) arose from these experiences. But you assume that you can analyze my conclusions and ignore my questions... without even knowing them.

I once had an "experience" that I cannot identify as "spiritual" or "carnal". I am lacking the means to do so. Maybe it is because I am not "spiritual". Maybe it is just the personal integrity that demands "outside" corrobation before accepting "feelings" or "faith" as way to the truth.

But here you are, a "spiritual" person. One who knows the difference between a spiritual event and imagination.

So I ask you, sincerely, because I really want to solve this puzzle that concerns me for, oh, 35 years now: use your capability of distinction to tell me what happened. Ask God for insight... I don't care what he reveals to you about me.