LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[ToBeLoved]

If was a lie then God is lying as well?

We are not changing the topic.

Is that the lie that Satan told Eve? That they would become like God?

 

[fatboys]

We are not changing the topic.

​

Is that the lie that Satan told Eve? That they would become like God?

After Adam and Eve ate the fruit what did God say to them?22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

[ToBeLoved]

After Adam and Eve ate the fruit what did God say to them?22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What was the lie Satan told Adam & Eve?

 

[fatboys]

What was the lie Satan told Adam & Eve?

That the fruit wouldn't kill them

 

[ToBeLoved]

That the fruit wouldn't kill them

You seem to not want to discuss this and are avoiding answering because the answer doesn't agree with your religious group. Maybe this discussion should end for today unless your willing to conversate.

 

[fatboys]

You seem to not want to discuss this and are avoiding answering because the answer doesn't agree with your religious group. Maybe this discussion should end for today unless your willing to conversate.

God told who was with him that Adam and Eve had become a God knowing good and evil. That was the truth that Satan told them and then mixed in the truth as the lie hat they would not die.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God told who was with him that Adam and Eve had become a God knowing good and evil. That was the truth that Satan told them and then mixed in the truth as the lie hat they would not die.

However, since human beings are not God and perfect, knowing the knowledge of good and evil was a curse becuase knowing what was evil would cause us to desire things that were evil.

So we are not like God able to avoid evilness. We only got the knowledge of evil which with us being human caused us to desire those things that are not good.

Does that make sense to you?

Us doing evil does NOT make us like God. It gives us an attribute that God has that He can handle and we can not.

 

[fatboys]

However, since human beings are not God and perfect, knowing the knowledge of good and evil was a curse becuase knowing what was evil would cause us to desire things that were evil.

So we are not like God able to avoid evilness. We only got the knowledge of evil which with us being human caused us to desire those things that are not good.

Does that make sense to you?

Us doing evil does NOT make us like God. It gives us an attribute that God has that He can handle and we can not.

Not even a little. Yes we are not perfect. Yes evil is bad. Did evil exist before the fall? It had to have existed or the tree wouldn't have been knowledge of good and evil. If it didn't exist it would have been the tree of knowledge of good.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not even a little. Yes we are not perfect. Yes evil is bad. Did evil exist before the fall? It had to have existed or the tree wouldn't have been knowledge of good and evil. If it didn't exist it would have been the tree of knowledge of good.

Of course it existed because Lucifer rebelled against God and his angels and him were cast out of heaven.

But it did not exist to human beings.

Isn't that what we are and have been talking about is Adam and Eve?

Unlike Mormon doctrine, the Bible clearly describes why Lucifer and his following angels got the boot out of heaven. Satan wanted to be God. See, we know from the OT that God is a jealous God and will have NO OTHER Gods but Him.

Mormon doctrine does not believe that God does not want millions of gods of their own planets. Which if that was true, why wouldn't God just have given Lucifer some small planet like Pluto to play with 1000 wives and a body to make little Satan's with.

 

[tickingclocker]

You know for a fact that Mormons do not demolish His Word and replace it with their own. You know that I read a study and believe in the bible, but yet you make this absurd statement. After all these months and you still make this absurd statement.

If God wants HP's in this day, He has the right to have them. He has chosen to have them and you and all your bible scholars can not stop it. Your tradition is shown to be short sighted. Besides it says no where in the bible that Jesus is the only HP. It says no where in the bible that Jesus could not have another HP on the earth.

So it boils down again to: it doesn't matter what you or your bible scholars think what God should or should not do. God is revealing things to the Mormon leaders to guide and direct His church on this earth today. I believe that, and you don't, but you will see as the days move into years that the Mormon church will just continue to grow and continue to be a wonderful influence in the world.

We do know "for a fact" that mormonism "demolishes God's Word", and therefore His bond. Mormonism depends upon claiming God is so weak and humans are so strong, He allowed His Word and what His plan toward humanity to be corrupted.... yet JS's word is somehow not? And both statements come from JS?? Is JS above God in the honesty category? Should he be?? And to top it off everyone is just supposed to dispense with over 12,000 years of rock-solid PROVEN faith to swallow whole what one man declares as truth like Mormons do, without any examination??? We are supposed to fall back upon our changable feelings, instead of standing upon solid divine fact?? What do you take us for? UTTER FOOLS?? OF course Mormons believe JS instead of God. If they didn't, they wouldn't be "Mormons".

Of course we cannot stop anyone from believing in theirs or anyone else's belief system. Neither does God for that matter. But don't expect us to leave you in the dark, when YOU are the one coming onto a Christian website which clearly states its "outreach".

And by such an emotionally heated defense as yours indicates you are basing your beliefs on a "hoping against hope" outlook. You know its not true, but you cannot say so openly--or don't dare or the whole house of cards would come tumbling down, and then what would you do and who would you be? Jesus Christ is the only High Priest:

Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in the things pertaining to God, in order to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Heb 2:17)

That's what the High Priest office was supposed to represent to the people. The coming Messiah. Not the ongoing "importance of human office". The Messiah has now come. The human office is no longer necessary because the "perfect" has come. Peter, who else can truly make propitiation for the sins of the people, except Jesus Christ? HE alone is the SAVIOR. No Mormon high priest ever died to save all humanity, because no Mormon high priest has ever been Jesus Christ. What exactly do you think the entire message of the bible is, anyway? Is it about humanity's view of God? Or about God's view of humanity? Because it cannot be both. It's either God's divine WORDS spoken through humanity to us, or its humanity's words "about" God to ourselves. God isn't in it then.

 

[mmksparbud]

Lol okay you got me. I had a desire to know if God was real and if he was real then why did he create this earth and the billions and billions of people that have lived died and gone back to the dust. Why did he create me and what is my purpose here? If God has a purpose for me then am I fulfilling that purpose? If God is real how do I contact him? Can God truely hear my voice out of all others who are communicating at the same time. So having this desire to know I knelt down I prayer and asked "O God if you are real I beg you to let me know". When I asked this in a secluded place where I wouldn't be interrupted I was enveloped in what seemed like loving arms and felt a great peace. I knew then that God was real because before this happened I had an experience with the other side who could see that I wanted to change my life from the path I was heading. I came to find out that it was similar experience to what Joseph Smith had when he went to pray to know what church he should join. So I had had knowledge of the power of Satan before I knew God was real. And even though I had been baptized at the age of eight I really didn't know that God was real. I knew my mom believed but my dad not so sure. They rarely went to church although we had to go when I was young. When I was eleven I said that I was not going to church. My dad said if I didn't go then we would work. And that is what we did. The very first spiritual experience was when I was right after I was baptized. They gave me the gift of the Holy Ghost and while I was under the hands of that bestowel a feel I got of peace and comfort came upon me like I had never felt before or after until I was praying if God was real. I know God is real. I know that he has called prophets to guide us both in ancient and modern times. People can make fun of the burning in my chest or I like to say my heart. It is a peaceful feeling that isn't heart burn.
Surely in order for you to have faith in what you believe you had had to have similar feelings. Surely you have felt an assurance that Jesus is then Christ. The Holy Ghost testifies of truth and even though we do not agree on many things the Holy Ghost would not deny you the feeling that he is God and that he sent his Son not not why follow anything at all because your saying that you know because of words in a book. People at the time of Christ didn't have a book saying that Jesus was the Christ. The followed him because they felt he was. Any way that is what I mean by spiritual evidence. Since that time I have had many more experiences that have continued to reafirm my path.

OK---So your spiritual evidence that the BOM is real is because you got a feeling that it is. That was the question, how do we, or you, know that what we believe is the truth. TBL stated several reasons for the bible being true--:
"ToBeLoved said: ↑
Well the Bible is very different from the BOM. It is proven that places in the Bible exist and certain facts are cooperated by other sources. Such as the Egyptians recording Israelite slave captivity at the time of Moses and Josephus a famous Roman historian documenting part of the life of Christ and His followers.

Old maps confirm town and peoples names and places as correct, as well as the 2000 year old Dead Sea Scrolls.

So the Bible is at a higher level than JS writings


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"----




Your reply to that is that you know BOM is true because you have a feeling it is. That is what you call spiritual evidence?


ev·i·dence
[ˈevədəns]
proof · confirmation · verification · substantiation ·
corroboration · affirmation · attestation

• law
  information given personally, drawn from a document, or in the form of material objects, tending or used to establish facts in a legal investigation or admissible as testimony in court:
  "without evidence, they can't bring a charge"
  synonyms: proof · confirmation · verification · substantiation ·
  corroboration · affirmation · attestation · testimony · statement · attestation · declaration · avowal · submission · claim · contention · allegation · deposition · representation · affidavit
• signs; indications:
  "there was no obvious evidence of a break-in"
  synonyms: signs · indications · pointers · marks · traces ·
  suggestions · hints · manifestation

VERB

1. (be evidenced)
   be or show evidence of:
   "that it has been populated from prehistoric times is evidenced by the remains of Neolithic buildings"
   synonyms: indicate · show · reveal · display · exhibit · manifest ·
   [more]

We have actual physical evidence of the truth of the bible--but you say we are deluded because our information is corrupted---you have a feeling you're right and that is why you know we are wrong.

You have no physical evidence for the BOM being true--no confirmation by any accepted scientific field---you have a warm, fuzzy feeling that it is true----and we're the deluded ones---OK----

In none of what you said, did you state that you asked if JS was real, if the books he wrote were real, if the things he taught were truth---I read that you asked if God was real----well heck yes He's real! I get the same warm, fuzzy feeling knowing He is real!! Yes, God is real---You can not prove it to an atheist--but He is real to all believers. Our physical evidence of His reality, they do not accept as evidence of anything but evolution. They and us share the same physical evidence, but we see it differently. It is the same evidence. A butterfly, an elephant, an ant, our own bodies, the immense number of varieties of everything--everything we point to is seen differently. But there is evidence. n You have no evidence---you have a feeling. Feelings are easy to manipulate--Eve felt for sure that Satan was telling her the truth, otherwise she wouldn't have done what she did. She felt he was saying the truth.
Well, I get no warm, fuzzy feeling when I asked if JS and his writings were truth---I am convicted to the bone that they are not. I know my bible, I know my God, I know what goes against it is not of Him. I didn't really even need to ask. Eve didn't need to ask if Satan was telling the truth---she knew God, she could see all of His creation in front of her, she could see that He said just of this one tree, do not eat--she had all the rest. But she listened to a lie instead of seeing the physical truth around her. She heard you will be like God, she heard, you will not die--she overrode the physical evidence all around her and relied on feelings-----not a good thing to do.

 

[mmksparbud]

Me too.

Six months ago they were going to reveal some big truth to us corrupt Christians. What if I die before the big reveal?

Oh, Yah!! I forgot! When is this supposed to happen???

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not even a little. Yes we are not perfect. Yes evil is bad. Did evil exist before the fall? It had to have existed or the tree wouldn't have been knowledge of good and evil. If it didn't exist it would have been the tree of knowledge of good.

Now I think your finally getting it.

Is 'sin' what separated Adam & Eve from communing with God?

 

[ToBeLoved]

We do know "for a fact" that mormonism "demolishes God's Word", and therefore His bond. Mormonism depends upon claiming God is so weak and humans are so strong, He allowed His Word and what His plan toward humanity to be corrupted.... yet JS's word is somehow not? And both statements come from JS?? Is JS above God in the honesty category? Should he be?? And to top it off everyone is just supposed to dispense with over 12,000 years of rock-solid PROVEN faith to swallow whole what one man declares as truth like Mormons do, without any examination??? We are supposed to fall back upon our changable feelings, instead of standing upon solid divine fact?? What do you take us for? UTTER FOOLS?? OF course Mormons believe JS instead of God. If they didn't, they wouldn't be "Mormons".

Of course we cannot stop anyone from believing in theirs or anyone else's belief system. Neither does God for that matter. But don't expect us to leave you in the dark, when YOU are the one coming onto a Christian website which clearly states its "outreach".

And by such an emotionally heated defense as yours indicates you are basing your beliefs on a "hoping against hope" outlook. You know its not true, but you cannot say so openly--or don't dare or the whole house of cards would come tumbling down, and then what would you do and who would you be? Jesus Christ is the only High Priest:

Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in the things pertaining to God, in order to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Heb 2:17)

That's what the High Priest office was supposed to represent to the people. The coming Messiah. Not the ongoing "importance of human office". The Messiah has now come. The human office is no longer necessary because the "perfect" has come. Peter, who else can truly make propitiation for the sins of the people, except Jesus Christ? HE alone is the SAVIOR. No Mormon high priest ever died to save all humanity, because no Mormon high priest has ever been Jesus Christ. What exactly do you think the entire message of the bible is, anyway? Is it about humanity's view of God? Or about God's view of humanity? Because it cannot be both. It's either God's divine WORDS spoken through humanity to us, or its humanity's words "about" God to ourselves. God isn't in it then.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not even a little. Yes we are not perfect. Yes evil is bad. Did evil exist before the fall? It had to have existed or the tree wouldn't have been knowledge of good and evil. If it didn't exist it would have been the tree of knowledge of good.

I guess you need to explain or expand this post much more to even describe why you are against what I said completely. Will you? Probably not because I don't believe that you have any sort of logic in Mormonism that explains why God would let no one else become God, yet He will let you Mormons become Gods.

You will need to do better.

 

[fatboys]

Now I think your finally getting it.

Is 'sin' what separated Adam & Eve from communing with God?

Their transgression did separate them from God

 

[fatboys]

I guess you need to explain or expand this post much more to even describe why you are against what I said completely. Will you? Probably not because I don't believe that you have any sort of logic in Mormonism that explains why God would let no one else become God, yet He will let you Mormons become Gods.

You will need to do better.

In order for a person to reach the highest of eternal opportunities they make covenants with God to follow and obey the laws of God which covenant with God is part of it. It has to be done with one holding the priesthood which is the authority given t

 

[ToBeLoved]

Their transgression did separate them from God

And did their transgression separate every human being after them from God?

 

[ToBeLoved]

In order for a person to reach the highest of eternal opportunities they make covenants with God to follow and obey the laws of God which covenant with God is part of it. It has to be done with one holding the priesthood which is the authority given t

So God would not let Lucifer become God because he didn't have the priesthood? He was an arch-angel. Now why would God let a Mormon become God and not an arch-angel? And kick the arch-angel out of heaven and curse him for all eternity, yet let you become God.

Does not God say there will be NO OTHER GODS BUT ME?

Your priesthood cannot thwart God's will if your priesthood is God's will. So you see that there is no sense in that statement you made.

 

[Peter1000]

No, it very emphatically was not "lost to the world". Lost to monolingual Americans perhaps, but so what? The USA is not the center of the world, either academically or in any other way.

Diego de Landa's history of the Yucatan was written in 1566 and contained information on the alphabet and language of the natives, as well as many other aspects of their culture. I believe it is available in English under the title "Yucatan Before and After the Conquest", though I don't know when it was first published in that language. I'm going to assume it was after Joseph Smith's day, or else he would not have been able to get away with claiming the sort of things he did about the ancient inhabitants of the Americas.



It really wasn't, though. "Joseph Smith or other monolingual Americans didn't know about it" is not the definition of "secret". I guarantee you that the various monuments at, e.g., Palenque, were there during all of Joseph's lifetime and long before, even if he personally never saw them. Also, apparently de Landa's book was popular enough in its day to provide enough copies to work from such that multiple editions now exist in English, French, and other major European languages despite the fact that the original was lost a long time ago.



Things are not true just because you say they are. Please be a little bit more mature in how you approach the world, and posting on this message board. This is quite frankly beneath you, and your religion and its community deserve better. (And I say that despite the fact that I strenuously disagree with Mormonism in several major areas, on both religious and secular grounds.)

OK, it was not lost to the entire world.

But, I believe I can say that 99% of monolingual Americans did not know, and 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% of normal, non-academic, monolingual Americans knew nothing of the people of the Yucatan pennisula, reguardless of de Landa's book (the earliest time I found published in English was 1937, I can't be sure, but at least way after JS).

So sorry to disappoint you for my immaturity, but one day the evidence will be piled up so high that it will be conclusive that Jesus did visit the America's just after his resurrection. There is some evidence today, but tommorrow is another day for discovery.

Just like it took such an immense pile of evidence that the Smithsonian Institute finally had to begrudgingly, kicking and screaming, let go of their out-dated notion that all peoples that inhabited the America's came from over the Bering Straight chasing the wooley mammoth. Finally with a bitter, bitter taste in their mouths they admitted that people came here from over the seas also, just like JS said back in 1829, 30 years before the Smithsonian was even started. And from 1829 until around 2000, JS was laughed at by the scientific community for saying that people came here by ship.

So, the question is: when it happens, and the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus did visit the Americas, will that give you any reason to re-evaluate the BOM? Since it is only in the BOM that we read with confidence that Jesus came to the Americas?