How does one come to believe something?

[ScottA]

Being "in the process of dying" isn´t "being dead".

Must we discuss the tenets of time?

Time agrees with the equation I gave you.

 

[HitchSlap]

I understand that it would be nice to view the burden as mine...but my burden is lifted. No, the burden is on you - not to prove the matter as if we were in a competition, but because it is you who seek a prove you do not have.

Ok, then.

Carry on.

 

[bhsmte]

I understand that it would be nice to view the burden as mine...but my burden is lifted. No, the burden is on you - not to prove the matter as if we were in a competition, but because it is you who seek a prove you do not have.

LOL

 

[ScottA]

Ok, then.

Carry on.

Even hypothetically (if you prefer), humanity is either more than organic...or it is not. It is our witness, that it is more. But it is a truth that is only true after this, i.e., here after. Your proof, if you need it, is humanity itself - but why be diverted by an equal mystery?

If we can accept that humanity is more than organic - don't take my word for it - you explain it! Otherwise, either bear with me, or go your way.

If you are still with me then, what we are not talking about, is something you know about - a place and realm that is not of this world (His kingdom is not of this world). Not of this world, meaning the natural, organic person cannot even exist there. To properly understand, there are two worlds and two bodies, the one natural and the other spiritual. If a person is born into the natural world, it is because he has died in spirit - he has been cast down to the lower life form we now exist in: a finite realm created for the purpose of carrying out our sentence - hard time, and the death penalty. From which one cannot see the other spiritual realm, until his sentence is carried out.

That was the order of the day - until Christ.

Christ then, came and confirmed what had been written regarding the other spiritual realm and the promises that had been made to those who would turn back from their crime of rebellion against God, and then He prescribed the final steps of the process. So, before Christ, no one saw God or the spiritual kingdom, until they died. But since Christ, He has told us that by turning back to God and away from the nature that we had been stricken with, He would send the spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) to us, to give us new spiritual rebirth. Within our natural bodies we can (and do) host the spirit of God, and can be born again back into His kingdom. When that time occurs, it is considered spiritual rebirth, and also the death of our natural body - but because we were not alive spiritually, the time of being alive only naturally, is not even considered life, but death. Having been dead to the spirit and sent to our death within a merely contrived realm of time...life in the world = death. And now, those of us who have done so, like Christ, have the spirit of God within us, by whom we testify and also confirm that what is written is true.

But, now, that time of God choosing those who would see Him again after death, has past. Now we live in a time when the spirit of God is poured out upon all people, and we are either internally drawn to Him, or we are not. If not, the gift of organic and natural life in the world is without haunt of loss - enjoy it! But if you are haunted - we have no need to convince you of anything - you will convince yourself - just try and stop it...you will see.

Blessings to you!

 

[quatona]

Must we discuss the tenets of time?

Time agrees with the equation I gave you.

Now you have conversations with time, also?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I understand that it would be nice to view the burden as mine...but my burden is lifted. No, the burden is on you - not to prove the matter as if we were in a competition, but because it is you who seek a prove you do not have.

You'd think that someone posting in the Philosophy section would understand the concept of "burden of proof". And avoid using equivocation.

 

[StTruth]

Even hypothetically (if you prefer), humanity is either more than organic...or it is not. It is our witness, that it is more. But it is a truth that is only true after this, i.e., here after. Your proof, if you need it, is humanity itself - but why be diverted by an equal mystery?

If we can accept that humanity is more than organic - don't take my word for it - you explain it! Otherwise, either bear with me, or go your way.

If you are still with me then, what we are not talking about, is something you know about - a place and realm that is not of this world (His kingdom is not of this world). Not of this world, meaning the natural, organic person cannot even exist there. To properly understand, there are two worlds and two bodies, the one natural and the other spiritual. If a person is born into the natural world, it is because he has died in spirit - he has been cast down to the lower life form we now exist in: a finite realm created for the purpose of carrying out our sentence - hard time, and the death penalty. From which one cannot see the other spiritual realm, until his sentence is carried out.

That was the order of the day - until Christ.

Christ then, came and confirmed what had been written regarding the other spiritual realm and the promises that had been made to those who would turn back from their crime of rebellion against God, and then He prescribed the final steps of the process. So, before Christ, no one saw God or the spiritual kingdom, until they died. But since Christ, He has told us that by turning back to God and away from the nature that we had been stricken with, He would send the spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) to us, to give us new spiritual rebirth. Within our natural bodies we can (and do) host the spirit of God, and can be born again back into His kingdom. When that time occurs, it is considered spiritual rebirth, and also the death of our natural body - but because we were not alive spiritually, the time of being alive only naturally, is not even considered life, but death. Having been dead to the spirit and sent to our death within a merely contrived realm of time...life in the world = death. And now, those of us who have done so, like Christ, have the spirit of God within us, by whom we testify and also confirm that what is written is true.

But, now, that time of God choosing those who would see Him again after death, has past. Now we live in a time when the spirit of God is poured out upon all people, and we are either internally drawn to Him, or we are not. If not, the gift of organic and natural life in the world is without haunt of loss - enjoy it! But if you are haunted - we have no need to convince you of anything - you will convince yourself - just try and stop it...you will see.

Blessings to you!

Hi ScottA,

Thanks for your very lengthy post and I'm sure it's full of meat. But if you will bear with me, what does it mean when you say that humanity is more than organic? This seems a bit like what woomeister Deepak Chopra talks about which I heard once on youtube. Are you referring to the consciousness and therefore humanity is more than organic? I always thought that the consciousness was the product of the brain and so it's still organic. What is the non-organic part of a human being? I really don't get it.

By the way, I'm a Christian too (like you) but I don't understand what you mean.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[HitchSlap]

Even hypothetically (if you prefer), humanity is either more than organic...or it is not. It is our witness, that it is more. But it is a truth that is only true after this, i.e., here after. Your proof, if you need it, is humanity itself - but why be diverted by an equal mystery?

If we can accept that humanity is more than organic - don't take my word for it - you explain it! Otherwise, either bear with me, or go your way.

If you are still with me then, what we are not talking about, is something you know about - a place and realm that is not of this world (His kingdom is not of this world). Not of this world, meaning the natural, organic person cannot even exist there. To properly understand, there are two worlds and two bodies, the one natural and the other spiritual. If a person is born into the natural world, it is because he has died in spirit - he has been cast down to the lower life form we now exist in: a finite realm created for the purpose of carrying out our sentence - hard time, and the death penalty. From which one cannot see the other spiritual realm, until his sentence is carried out.

That was the order of the day - until Christ.

Christ then, came and confirmed what had been written regarding the other spiritual realm and the promises that had been made to those who would turn back from their crime of rebellion against God, and then He prescribed the final steps of the process. So, before Christ, no one saw God or the spiritual kingdom, until they died. But since Christ, He has told us that by turning back to God and away from the nature that we had been stricken with, He would send the spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) to us, to give us new spiritual rebirth. Within our natural bodies we can (and do) host the spirit of God, and can be born again back into His kingdom. When that time occurs, it is considered spiritual rebirth, and also the death of our natural body - but because we were not alive spiritually, the time of being alive only naturally, is not even considered life, but death. Having been dead to the spirit and sent to our death within a merely contrived realm of time...life in the world = death. And now, those of us who have done so, like Christ, have the spirit of God within us, by whom we testify and also confirm that what is written is true.

But, now, that time of God choosing those who would see Him again after death, has past. Now we live in a time when the spirit of God is poured out upon all people, and we are either internally drawn to Him, or we are not. If not, the gift of organic and natural life in the world is without haunt of loss - enjoy it! But if you are haunted - we have no need to convince you of anything - you will convince yourself - just try and stop it...you will see.

Blessings to you!

I understand that you believe this. Is there a way I might be able to verify if you're telling me the truth or not?

 

[Freodin]

"Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willnae be fooled again!"

I have no idea why I said that.

 

[Arsenios]

So let's say I observe a person running into a burning building...
Is your question now: "What then?"

Take any one of your examples,
and please explain how you would determine if [it is] true, or not.

OK - I will reverse it here for you:

Let's say that you tell me you observed a person running into a burning building...

And let's take it another step:

Let's say your grandson is telling me, after your death, that you told him that you observed a person running into a burning building. Did you see someone running into a burning building, or did you not?? What to do?? Believe your grand-son? Or tell him he has to prove it?

So let's say your grand-son finds your diary where you wrote about getting pulled out of a burning building? Is it even the same fire??? How would you know?

And the simple truth is that even in such a simple case, you cannot KNOW what another person SAW...

As for me, I say: "I believe you saw a person running into a burning building through the account of your grandson."

Christianity is not this kind of knowledge...
Even though it does include an almost infinite amount of it...

Philosophically, we do not begin with the distinction between existence and non-existence...
We begin with our Creator and His ongoing creation...
We do this because we have encountered Him...
OR...
Because we believe those who have encountered Him...
AND...
Because we see this earthly walk ending in death...
SO THAT...
Life is not found in creation...
But only in the Creator of creation...
Whom we KNOW by EXPERIENCE or by FAITH...

Just as you know creation by both...

Christian Dogmatics are Empirical...

Christian empiricism is not materialistic...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

"Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willnae be fooled again!"

I have no idea why I said that.

You were lied to...

That is why you said that...

And you rightly called BS on the whole thing...

I did too...

The danger is that there is a Baby in that bath water...

Remember the old Spanish Christian medieval adage:

"The best revenge...
Is to live well..."

Which is no revenge at all...

Loving wholeheartedly those who wrong you...
Is no small matter!

Arsenios

 

[HitchSlap]

And what if my grandson told you that not only I ran into the building, but was burned beyond recognition, and that three days after my funeral, I dropped by for coffee?

 

[StTruth]

Sigh! This is getting tiresome. How does one sign out of a thread so there won't be notifications? This is what happens whenever we people of religion try to have some semblance of reason. As I always maintain, there is no law against believing in anything. But when we do believe in something that has zilch evidence and zero reasoning, the decent thing for us to do is to lie low and not take on those who don't believe in these things. But there will always be among us those who honestly believe that our faith is reasonable or even rational and we take on the atheist. The result is we have no choice but to spew nonsense and the atheist does the same and the thread spirals into something exhaustingly wacko.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[HitchSlap]

Even hypothetically (if you prefer), humanity is either more than organic...or it is not. It is our witness, that it is more. But it is a truth that is only true after this, i.e., here after. Your proof, if you need it, is humanity itself - but why be diverted by an equal mystery?

If we can accept that humanity is more than organic - don't take my word for it - you explain it! Otherwise, either bear with me, or go your way.

If you are still with me then, what we are not talking about, is something you know about - a place and realm that is not of this world (His kingdom is not of this world). Not of this world, meaning the natural, organic person cannot even exist there. To properly understand, there are two worlds and two bodies, the one natural and the other spiritual. If a person is born into the natural world, it is because he has died in spirit - he has been cast down to the lower life form we now exist in: a finite realm created for the purpose of carrying out our sentence - hard time, and the death penalty. From which one cannot see the other spiritual realm, until his sentence is carried out.

That was the order of the day - until Christ.

Christ then, came and confirmed what had been written regarding the other spiritual realm and the promises that had been made to those who would turn back from their crime of rebellion against God, and then He prescribed the final steps of the process. So, before Christ, no one saw God or the spiritual kingdom, until they died. But since Christ, He has told us that by turning back to God and away from the nature that we had been stricken with, He would send the spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) to us, to give us new spiritual rebirth. Within our natural bodies we can (and do) host the spirit of God, and can be born again back into His kingdom. When that time occurs, it is considered spiritual rebirth, and also the death of our natural body - but because we were not alive spiritually, the time of being alive only naturally, is not even considered life, but death. Having been dead to the spirit and sent to our death within a merely contrived realm of time...life in the world = death. And now, those of us who have done so, like Christ, have the spirit of God within us, by whom we testify and also confirm that what is written is true.

But, now, that time of God choosing those who would see Him again after death, has past. Now we live in a time when the spirit of God is poured out upon all people, and we are either internally drawn to Him, or we are not. If not, the gift of organic and natural life in the world is without haunt of loss - enjoy it! But if you are haunted - we have no need to convince you of anything - you will convince yourself - just try and stop it...you will see.

Blessings to you!

I'm not convinced.

 

[ScottA]

You'd think that someone posting in the Philosophy section would understand the concept of "burden of proof". And avoid using equivocation.

You would think that in the Philosophy section one would have no problem conveying the idea the up is possibly down. And avoid using semantics.

 

[Freodin]

You were lied to...

That is why you said that...

And you rightly called BS on the whole thing...

I did too...

The danger is that there is a Baby in that bath water...

Remember the old Spanish Christian medieval adage:

"The best revenge...
Is to live well..."

Which is no revenge at all...

Loving wholeheartedly those who wrong you...
Is no small matter!

Arsenios

Your mind reading skills are a little lacking.

No, this not why I said that. Contrary to what I said earlier, I do know why I cited this quote. The winky smiley should have been a hint - I was being a teensy bit ironical.

If you can identify the origin of this quote (which should not be too difficult on the internet) you might also find that the, erm, "persons" that made this exclamation do also hold a rather peculiar belief about life, death and life after death.

Considering their also rather anachistic approach to authority, I found it a fitting response to Scott's assertions.


No worries, mate. You win some, you lose some.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You would think that in the Philosophy section one would have no problem conveying the idea the up is possibly down. And avoid using semantics.

What on earth are you talking about now...

 

[ScottA]

Hi ScottA,

Thanks for your very lengthy post and I'm sure it's full of meat. But if you will bear with me, what does it mean when you say that humanity is more than organic? This seems a bit like what woomeister Deepak Chopra talks about which I heard once on youtube. Are you referring to the consciousness and therefore humanity is more than organic? I always thought that the consciousness was the product of the brain and so it's still organic. What is the non-organic part of a human being? I really don't get it.

By the way, I'm a Christian too (like you) but I don't understand what you mean.

Cheers,

StTruth

I am referring, in contemporary terms, to "the natural body" vs. "the spiritual body." So...I am not referring to "a non-organic part of a human being" at all - but to the "new creation" born of the spirit of God, rather than of the fallen lineage of man.

 

[HitchSlap]

You would think that in the Philosophy section one would have no problem conveying the idea the up is possibly down. And avoid using semantics.

Ah, you've been engaging in hypotheticals the entire time.

Why?

 

[ScottA]

I understand that you believe this. Is there a way I might be able to verify if you're telling me the truth or not?

There are only two ways:

1. Appeal to God with a repentant heart, that you would like to turn away from the ways of fallen humanity and be made new in His spirit, i.e. trade-in your natural being and existence for a new spiritual existence.
2. Die, and find out too late that you let the opportunity expire.

...I did number one. But it was easy for me...or perhaps I should say, more difficult...because life had spiraled downward until I had nothing left to hold onto. I did so not even knowing there was a God...and He answered.