Der Alte

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You deny any wrongdoing, but you continue to put me down, even though you know little about me. I do pick up your elitist attitude, however.
It is not elitist to have knowledge and rely on that knowledge when discussing something. To say that someone probably could not locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it refers to a statement of perceived fact. If one is going to discuss the meaning Greek or Hebrew words or points of Hebrew or Greek grammar then one should have the requisite knowledge of the languages.
I am a layman writing for laymen, and I have used just enough tools to cast serious doubt on just one rather wobbly doctrine. It was not difficult as an intellectual exercise, as Hell is an unworthy opponent.
This made me laugh out loud. There have been many people at this forum in the past 15+ years making the same claim but alas I have not seen any peer reviewed books by credible scholars casting serious doubt on any supposedly wobbly doctrines. As I have shown via the documented history of the Jews, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of fiery eternal, unending punishment which they called both sheol and Gehinnom which are interpreted as hades and Gehenna in the 225 BC LXX.
 
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Lazarus Short

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As I have shown via the documented history of the Jews, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of fiery eternal, unending punishment which they called both sheol and Gehinnom which are interpreted as hades and Gehenna in the 225 BC LXX.

This seems to be your one-note theology.
 
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Der Alte

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Der Alte said:
As I have shown via the documented history of the Jews, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of fiery eternal, unending punishment which they called both sheol and Gehinnom which are interpreted as hades and Gehenna in the 225 BC LXX.

This seems to be your one-note theology.

Wrong, as usual! No more one note that all the Hell, no! posters continually repeating "The doctrine of hell was copied from pagans!""The doctrine of hell was copied from pagans!" with no, zero, none evidence. They seem to know a lot about pagan myths but suddenly get 0/0 vision when authentic, documented historical evidence is provided. I was restating documented historical facts which have never been addressed in any meaningful way and have certainly not been refuted.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Wrong, as usual! No more one note that all the Hell, no! posters continually repeating "The doctrine of hell was copied from pagans!""The doctrine of hell was copied from pagans!" with no, zero, none evidence. They seem to know a lot about pagan myths but suddenly get 0/0 vision when authentic, documented historical evidence is provided. I was restating documented historical facts which have never been addressed in any meaningful way and have certainly not been refuted.

Now, I confess that I was already a Universalist when I began my survey of the KJV, but I tried my best to do it with an open mind. Even though I found a few texts more agreeable to the Hell Theory or the Annihilation Theory, on the whole I failed to find enough textual evidence to establish Hell as a doctrine, in my considered opinion. Now, since I could not find Hell in the Bible, my next step will be to search for its origins elsewhere. Thanks for shining a light in the right direction. You must understand that I don't dispute your sources - however, I find them suspect due to the long, ongoing and repeated backsliding of Israel/Judah, and their worship of other gods. Perhaps you have forgotten the vast amount of ink in the Bible devoted to God's pleadings and denunciations. In one place, He asks "What more could I have done in my garden, than I have done?" He did not hint at sending His people to Hell as a solution. For every proof text a damnationist can show me, I can dig up several places where God could have mentioned Hell, but did not. Given what I have seen and read so far, I know I am not wrong, and your insistence only tells me that you are probably having cognitive dissonance on this issue.
 
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Gabriel Anton

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Peace be with you.

Stories about Hell:

Someone's, thoughts on Hell:
  • Hell exists, and it is not empty.
  • Multitudes of people fall into hell every day.
  • The horror of hell includes the pain of fire and the torments of demons.
  • Most of the damned are there because of sins of the flesh.
  • Many people go to hell because NOBODY IS WILLING TO PRAY AND DO PENANCE FOR THEM.

Hell
July 13, 1917.

Sister Lucia:

The only important thing...will I save my soul?

She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me).

The demons were distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.

We then looked up at Our Lady, who said to us so kindly and so sadly: “You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.”

God bless you.
 
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Der Alte

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Now, I confess that I was already a Universalist when I began my survey of the KJV, but I tried my best to do it with an open mind. Even though I found a few texts more agreeable to the Hell Theory or the Annihilation Theory, on the whole I failed to find enough textual evidence to establish Hell as a doctrine, in my considered opinion. Now, since I could not find Hell in the Bible, my next step will be to search for its origins elsewhere.
You did not find it because you were not looking for it and as an admitted Universalist you were predisposed to dismiss any scripture which didn't fit your preconceptions. You claim to have searched for the "origins of hell" but evidently you did not consider looking in Judaism and since I have brought it to your attention you have not interacted with it but blew it off as "one note theology."
Thanks for shining a light in the right direction. You must understand that I don't dispute your sources - however, I find them suspect due to the long, ongoing and repeated backsliding of Israel/Judah, and their worship of other gods. Perhaps you have forgotten the vast amount of ink in the Bible devoted to God's pleadings and denunciations. In one place, He asks "What more could I have done in my garden, than I have done?" He did not hint at sending His people to Hell as a solution.
What you find suspect is irrelevant to me. In first century Israel, among Jews, there was a belief in a place of fiery unending punishment and they called it both sheol and Gehinnom, in Greek hades and Gehenna. When Jesus taught about "eternal punishment,""hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die,""furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" and punishment worse than death, that supported the existing belief. Why didn't Jesus say everyone will be saved no matter what?
For every proof text a damnationist can show me, I can dig up several places where God could have mentioned Hell, but did not. Given what I have seen and read so far, I know I am not wrong, and your insistence only tells me that you are probably having cognitive dissonance on this issue.
There is a difference between a "proof text" and scriptural evidence. Your opinion of times when God should have said something about hell and didn't are irrelevant to me. I know that I am right and your insistence only tells me that I'm not the one having cognitive dissonance on this issue.
 
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Butch5

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The disciples who were Jews continued to observe the Jewish feasts and festivals but there is no scriptural record that former pagan gentile Christians did so. In fact Acts of the Apostles 15:20, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Acts of the Apostles 15:29 and Acts of the Apostles 21:24-25 states that gentiles were not required to circumcise and keep the law. Not one verse in the NT commands gentile Christians to observe Passover or any other festival or feast.


I didn't say Christians had to keep the festivals, I said they did. Paul said this to the Colossians .

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Col. 2:16-17 KJV)


An extremely flimsy reason to condemn Christians. Pagans also prayed to their gods do we condemn Christians for praying? Do we also condemn the Jews? Pagans had priests, temples, sacrifices etc. so did the Jews.

I didn't condemn anyone. I simply said that Christmas isn't Biblical. The Jews were expressly told not to worship God the way the pagans worshiped their gods. We find those things in Christmas celebrations.
 
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Lazarus Short

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You did not find it because you were not looking for it and as an admitted Universalist you were predisposed to dismiss any scripture which didn't fit your preconceptions. You claim to have searched for the "origins of hell" but evidently you did not consider looking in Judaism and since I have brought it to your attention you have not interacted with it but blew it off as "one note theology."

What you find suspect is irrelevant to me. In first century Israel, among Jews, there was a belief in a place of fiery unending punishment and they called it both sheol and Gehinnom, in Greek hades and Gehenna. When Jesus taught about "eternal punishment,""hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die,""furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" and punishment worse than death, that supported the existing belief. Why didn't Jesus say everyone will be saved no matter what?

There is a difference between a "proof text" and scriptural evidence. Your opinion of times when God should have said something about hell and didn't are irrelevant to me. I know that I am right and your insistence only tells me that I'm not the one having cognitive dissonance on this issue.

In my life I have found that things not looked for are rarely found. Sometimes you can look right at something, not knowing what it is, and not really "see" it. So it is with Hell - or the lack of it. With my Question (Where did our ideas of Hell come from?) hanging over me, clues jumped out at me, beginning with Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Hell seems to have been left out, and that bias held through the rest of the document, even though YOUR preconceptions deny it. With the Holy Bible, the only source I respect in such matters, proving itself to be NOT the "Where did..." of my Question, I really have no more reason to look to Jewish beliefs than to those of any pagan group. Do you see where I am coming from? No, I'm sure you don't. As to what Jesus said, He did give us some broad hints, and the cumulative witness of John the Baptist and His Apostles settles the matter. For instance, I found that Paul never wrote of Hell in any of his epistles. No cognitive dissonance here. I have not fleshed out the History of Hell yet, but I have the answer to my Question. Remember, Hell does not exist merely because we think it does.
 
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Anvil

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As far as Hell "the place of eternal torment" is concerned. What would that say about God if in fact he did send people to a place such as that. Gen 2:17 states that the sentence for disobeying God is death,
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die

Is God a liar? Is God sadistic?
If God does in fact send people to a place that they suffer in forever than he is both of those things. He certainly is not a just God with balanced scales that he commands his children to have.
If God sends us to this Evil place than the scriptures can't be trusted either. So what is truth and what is a lie?



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Der Alte

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Der Alte said:
The disciples who were Jews continued to observe the Jewish feasts and festivals but there is no scriptural record that former pagan gentile Christians did so. In fact Acts of the Apostles 15:20, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Acts of the Apostles 15:29
and Acts of the Apostles 21:24-25 states that gentiles were not required to circumcise and keep the law. Not one verse in the NT commands gentile Christians to observe Passover or any other festival or feast.
I didn't say Christians had to keep the festivals, I said they did. Paul said this to the Colossians .
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Col. 2:16-17 KJV)
I didn't condemn anyone. I simply said that Christmas isn't Biblical. The Jews were expressly told not to worship God the way the pagans worshiped their gods. We find those things in Christmas celebrations
.
Typical internet copy/paste. "It must be true it's on the internet." There are no pagan anything in the Christian observance of the Lord's birth." Christians are not responsible for society co-opting and commercializing Christmas or any other Christian observance.
.....I ask my question again, where is the scripture which tells gentile Christians to observe Passover and other feast and festivals? Col 2:16-17 is not it. That verse says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" Who would Christians in Colossae be concerned about judging them? Certainly not the Jewish leaders 100s of miles away in Jerusalem but Christian leaders in Colossae. If they were observing all these things why would anyone judge them? These vss. are not a command to observe all these things read what Paul said about this in Gal 4:9-11.

Galatians 4:9-11 But now that you know God, or rather have been known by God, how can you turn back again to those powerless and bankrupt basic principles? Why do you want to become their slaves all over again?
(10) You are observing days, months, seasons, and years.
(11) I am afraid for you! I don't want my work for you to have been wasted!
He said that after knowing God the Galatian Christians were turning back to observing days, months, seasons, and years which are powerless and bankrupt basic principles and in Col 2:16-17 Paul calls those a shadow of things to come. We have the reality Jesus Christ why should we continue to observe rituals and ceremonies which were all prophecies of Jesus. Jesus is our Passover lamb. should we still roast a lamb every year at Passover?
1 Corinthians 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast so that you may be a new batch of dough, since you are to be free from yeast. For the Messiah, our Passover, has been sacrificed.
When Paul, James and all the elders were deciding the requirements for gentiles Christians, they decided on only four rules. Those four rules are repeated three times.
Acts 15:10 So why do you test God by putting on the disciples' neck a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we could carry?
Acts 15:20 Instead, we should write to them to keep away from [1] things polluted by idols, [2] from sexual immorality, [3] from anything strangled, and [4] from blood.

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to place on you any burden but these essential requirements:
Acts 15:29 to [1] keep away from food sacrificed to idols, [2] from blood, [3] from anything strangled, and [4] from sexual immorality. If you avoid these things, you will do well. Goodbye."
Acts 21:24 . . . those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, [keep the law vs. 24] save only that they [1] keep themselves from things offered to idols, and [2] from blood, and [3] from strangled, and [4] from fornication.


 
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Shempster

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I have heard and scoffed at the saying that "heaven and hell are here on earth". But now I must say that it is at least partially true I am sure. Yeshua said that narrow is the road to life and wide is the way to destruction. Most every Christian I know thinks that means that only those in THEIR denomination will go to heaven and the rest will burn forever after they die of course.
They focus so much on this future time after you die. Not sure about you guys but I don't want to live in misery and imagine happiness in the distant future.

No, the truth is that what He meant is that there are few CHRISTIANS who find "eternal life" in this life! When we walk like Him and truly love ALL of His created things then we get to experience that water welling up and flowing out of us.
The sad news is that most Christians never get past first base of belief. They live for status or wealth or control. They argue with others about petty doctrines that cannot be proven at all. They denounce those "cultists" in different denominations. They slander and post partly false stories on social media about someone they have never even met.
But when Yeshua returns, ALL of that stuff will be destroyed. The carnal Christians are going to be very sad.
They missed out on real life and also on attaining the higher levels in the Kingdom.

So, as far as this hell to come, I cannot say for sure how it will all shake down, but knowing the very character of the Father, I would guess that we are looking at Universalism OR Annihilationism as the only two possibilities in my view.
Unending torture is unthinkable.
 
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Der Alte

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In my life I have found that things not looked for are rarely found. Sometimes you can look right at something, not knowing what it is, and not really "see" it. So it is with Hell - or the lack of it. With my Question (Where did our
ideas of Hell come from?) hanging over me, clues jumped out at me, beginning with Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Hell seems to have been left out, and that bias held through the rest of the document, even though YOUR preconceptions
deny it. With the Holy Bible, the only source I respect in such matters, proving itself to be NOT the "Where did..." of my Question, I really have no more reason to look to Jewish beliefs than to those of any pagan group. Do you see where I am coming from?
No, I'm sure you don't. As to what Jesus said, He did give us some broad hints, and the cumulative witness of John the Baptist and His Apostles settles the matter. For instance, I found that Paul never wrote of Hell in any of his epistles. No cognitive dissonance here. I have not
fleshed out the History of Hell yet, but I have the answer to my Question. Remember, Hell does not exist merely because we think it does.
A number of logical fallacies, argument from silence. Putting one's self in the place of God, "If I was God and I wanted to warn people about hell, here is how I would write it.[ . . . ] I didn't find it written exactly that way so it must not be true." Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
 
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Butch5

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Typical internet copy/paste. "It must be true it's on the internet." There are no pagan anything in the Christian observance of the Lord's birth." Christians are not responsible for society co-opting and commercializing Christmas or any other Christian observance.
.....I ask my question again, where is the scripture which tells gentile Christians to observe Passover and other feast and festivals? Col 2:16-17 is not it. That verse says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" Who would Christians in Colossae be concerned about judging them? Certainly not the Jewish leaders 100s of miles away in Jerusalem but Christian leaders in Colossae. If they were observing all these things why would anyone judge them? These vss. are not a command to observe all these things read what Paul said about this in Gal 4:9-11.

Galatians 4:9-11 But now that you know God, or rather have been known by God, how can you turn back again to those powerless and bankrupt basic principles? Why do you want to become their slaves all over again?
(10) You are observing days, months, seasons, and years.
(11) I am afraid for you! I don't want my work for you to have been wasted!
He said that after knowing God the Galatian Christians were turning back to observing days, months, seasons, and years which are powerless and bankrupt basic principles and in Col 2:16-17 Paul calls those a shadow of things to come. We have the reality Jesus Christ why should we continue to observe rituals and ceremonies which were all prophecies of Jesus. Jesus is our Passover lamb. should we still roast a lamb every year at Passover?
1 Corinthians 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast so that you may be a new batch of dough, since you are to be free from yeast. For the Messiah, our Passover, has been sacrificed.
When Paul, James and all the elders were deciding the requirements for gentiles Christians, they decided on only four rules. Those four rules are repeated three times.
Acts 15:10 So why do you test God by putting on the disciples' neck a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we could carry?
Acts 15:20 Instead, we should write to them to keep away from [1] things polluted by idols, [2] from sexual immorality, [3] from anything strangled, and [4] from blood.

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to place on you any burden but these essential requirements:
Acts 15:29 to [1] keep away from food sacrificed to idols, [2] from blood, [3] from anything strangled, and [4] from sexual immorality. If you avoid these things, you will do well. Goodbye."
Acts 21:24 . . . those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, [keep the law vs. 24] save only that they [1] keep themselves from things offered to idols, and [2] from blood, and [3] from strangled, and [4] from fornication.



You argument is a straw man. Again, I didn't say Christians were commanded to keep the feast days. I said they kept hte passover. That can be easily seen by reading their writings. The passage that I posted from Paul shows that they did observe at least some of them. You said,

Paul calls those a shadow of things to come. We have the reality Jesus Christ why should we continue to observe rituals and ceremonies which were all prophecies of Jesus. Jesus is our Passover lamb. should we still roast a lamb every year at Passover?

Notice what Paul said. This was written after Jesus had died and been raised from the dead. Paul said they are, not they were, a shadow of things to come. Those things were, present tense, when Paul wrote it, a shadow of things that were to come in the future. He's talking about the Kingdom. Notice what Jesus said.

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. (Lk. 22:15-16 KJV)

Those feast days are not the feasts of the Jews, they are God's feasts.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. (Lev. 23:1-2 KJV)

Regarding Christmas, It wasn't celebrated by the early Christians. It's a Catholic holiday from the Catholic Church. If you look at the way it's celebrated you can find these things in the pagan celebrations that were PRIOR TO IT. Therefore it wasn't the pagans co opting Christian rituals it was Christians co opting pagan rituals.
 
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Der Alte

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You argument is a straw man. Again, I didn't say Christians were commanded to keep the feast days. I said they kept hte passover. That can be easily seen by reading their writings. The passage that I posted from Paul shows that they did observe at least some of them. You said,
The only Christians shown to be observing Jewish customs are Jewish Christians. Paul was a Jew and he continued to observes the feasts, etc. There is not one single verse in the NT commanding former pagan gentiles Christians to observe days, months, feasts etc. How could gentile Christians in Rome, Corinth, Corinthians, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae etc. when there is no record that they ever had the OT?
Notice what Paul said. This was written after Jesus had died and been raised from the dead. Paul said they are, not they were, a shadow of things to come. Those things were, present tense, when Paul wrote it, a shadow of things that were to come in the future. He's talking about the Kingdom. Notice what Jesus said.
Is Jesus our Passover or not? Is Jesus the first fruits or not?
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. (Lk. 22:15-16 KJV
)
Is that a command to gentile Christians to annually kill and lamb and celebrate the Passover although our Passover was slain once for all time?
Those feast days are not the feasts of the Jews, they are God's feasts.
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. (Lev. 23:1-2 KJV)
Agreed. When was Torah taken to gentile Christians in Rome, Corinth, Corinthians, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae etc. so they could obey all 613 commandments in the T'nakh
Regarding Christmas, It wasn't celebrated by the early Christians. It's a Catholic holiday from the Catholic Church. If you look at the way it's celebrated you can find these things in the pagan celebrations that were PRIOR TO IT. Therefore it wasn't the pagans co opting Christian rituals it was Christians co opting pagan rituals.
I suggest you get your information from credible sources rather than believing everything you read on the internet. There was no Catholic church with a pope in charge until 1075 when the bishop of Rome unilaterally issued 27 Dictatus Papae [Dictates of the Pope] and usurped authority over the church.
http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com/history/79-history/215-revisiting-dictatus-papae.html
And Christmas was observed about 800+ years before that.

Encyclopedia Britannica-Christmas
The great church adopted Christmas much later than Epiphany; and before the 5th century there was no general consensus of opinion as to when it should come in the calendar, whether on the 6th of January, or the 25th of March, or the 25th of December. The earliest identification of the 25th of December with the birthday of Christ is in a passage of Theophilus of Antioch (A.D. 171—183),

Read more: CHRISTMAS (i.e. the Ma... - Online Information article about CHRISTMAS (i.e. the Ma... http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/CHR_CLI/CHRISTMAS_ie_the_Mass_of_Christ.html#ixzz4GW3z9rpC
 
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Radrook

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Immortality is not a given. It is a gift made possible via the sacrifice of our Lord and SaviorJesus Christ. Furthermore, there are many scriptures which describe the soul as mortal in the OT.

Nowhere do in the Bible do we find the term Immortal Soul.

Here is the meaning of the original Hebrew word translated as soul:

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 5315 Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
Xpn from (05314)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Nephesh TWOT - 1395a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
neh'-fesh Noun Feminine
Definition
  1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
    1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
    2. living being
    3. living being (with life in the blood)
    4. the man himself, self, person or individual
    5. seat of the appetites
    6. seat of emotions and passions
    7. activity of mind
      1. dubious
    8. activity of the will
      1. dubious
    9. activity of the character
      1. dubious
NAS Word Usage - Total: 688
any 1, anyone 2, anyone* 1, appetite 7, being 1, beings 3, body 1, breath 1, corpse 2, creature 6, creatures 3, dead 1, dead person 2, deadly 1, death 1, defenseless* 1, desire 12, desire* 2, discontented* 1, endure* 1, feelings 1, fierce* 2, greedy* 1, heart 5, heart's 2, herself 12, Himself 4, himself 19, human 1, human being 1, hunger 1, life 146, life* 1, lifeblood* 2, lives 34, living creature 1, longing* 1, man 4, man's 1, men* 2, mind 2, Myself 3, myself 2, number 1, ones 1, others 1, ourselves 3, own 1, passion* 1, people 2, people* 1, perfume* 1, person 68, person* 1, persons 19, slave 1, some 1, soul 238, soul's 1, souls 12, strength 1, themselves 6, thirst 1, throat 2, will 1, wish 1, wishes 1, yourself 11, yourselves 13
 
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Lazarus Short

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I have heard and scoffed at the saying that "heaven and hell are here on earth". But now I must say that it is at least partially true I am sure. Yeshua said that narrow is the road to life and wide is the way to destruction. Most every Christian I know thinks that means that only those in THEIR denomination will go to heaven and the rest will burn forever after they die of course.
They focus so much on this future time after you die. Not sure about you guys but I don't want to live in misery and imagine happiness in the distant future.

No, the truth is that what He meant is that there are few CHRISTIANS who find "eternal life" in this life! When we walk like Him and truly love ALL of His created things then we get to experience that water welling up and flowing out of us.
The sad news is that most Christians never get past first base of belief. They live for status or wealth or control. They argue with others about petty doctrines that cannot be proven at all. They denounce those "cultists" in different denominations. They slander and post partly false stories on social media about someone they have never even met.
But when Yeshua returns, ALL of that stuff will be destroyed. The carnal Christians are going to be very sad.
They missed out on real life and also on attaining the higher levels in the Kingdom.

So, as far as this hell to come, I cannot say for sure how it will all shake down, but knowing the very character of the Father, I would guess that we are looking at Universalism OR Annihilationism as the only two possibilities in my view.
Unending torture is unthinkable.

Yes, as Jesus Himself said, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but I cannot find that the weeping/gnashing result from anything other than a loss of expected rewards. Further, I have decided that the reason there are not more Christians is...Christians.
 
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Lazarus Short

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A number of logical fallacies, argument from silence. Putting one's self in the place of God, "If I was God and I wanted to warn people about hell, here is how I would write it.[ . . . ] I didn't find it written exactly that way so it must not be true." Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

Putting words in my mouth again, a violation of manners in any forum, IMHO. I do not lack evidence, but you will never admit it. Clever sidestepping, an arrogant and overbearing attitude, these are your methods. I cite Scripture, you cite the Talmud. All can see who is lost here.
 
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Radrook

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Yes, as Jesus Himself said, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but I cannot find that the weeping/gnashing result from anything other than a loss of expected rewards. Further, I have decided that the reason there are not more Christians is...Christians.
Or better yet, Christians who think and vociferously proclaim that they are Christians but whose love of Evil puts that claim seriously in doubt. I think it's safe to say that it would be rather difficult for someone to view a fellow who is skinning him alive as the Christian that the fellow is proclaiming himself to be. Reminds me of the Cuban Taino Indian Chief Hatuey who was offered heaven if he accepted Christ as Lord and Savior just before being roasted alive. Hatuey responded in the following way.

""Father, are there Spaniards in heaven?"

"Yes my son, there are Spaniards in heaven."

"Father!"

"Yes my son?" The priest replied sanctimoniously.

"I don't want to go to heaven!""
 
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Lazarus Short

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Or better yet, Christians who think and vociferously proclaim that they are Christians but whose love of Evil puts that claim seriously in doubt. I think it's safe to say that it would be rather difficult for someone to view a fellow who is skinning him alive as the Christian that the fellow is proclaiming himself to be. Reminds me of the Cuban Taino Indian Chief Hatuey who was offered heaven if he accepted Christ as Lord and Savior just before being roasted alive. Hatuey responded in the following way.

""Father, are there Spaniards in heaven?"

"Yes my son, there are Spaniards in heaven."

"Father!"

"Yes my son?" The priest replied sanctimoniously.

"I don't want to go to heaven!""

It may be more tolerable for the pagan Hatuey in the Judgment than for the Christian Spaniards who roasted him.
 
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