Praying, repetitiveness, concentration

[brinny]

The Our Father said again and again is the Prayer of Jesus. Is that a repetitive prayer? What about reciting the psalms over an over. Please, no Catholic bashing.

i was in dire dire straits once, so dire, that it was a matter of life and death.

i repeated the only thing i could grasp and remember, the 23rd psalm, and kept just repeating it over and over.

In all of the repeating, He was reading my heart.

That's just one of the reasons that i love this heavenly Father.

How could i not?

Is He delightful, or WHAT??!!

 

[AvilaSurfer]

The Rosary is not vain repetition.

 

[seeking.IAM]

It boils down to intent, doesn't it? Is a prayer offered out of vanity or sincerity?

Your statement that too much become harassment doesn't persuade me. I am Anglican after all. Our worship is centered around common prayer. Although our prayers vary from week to week, the entire Church prays the same prayers every week. Thousands of voices praying the same prayer. I believe there is power in those petitions, including their quantity. Did not our Lord teach us all to pray the same prayer? I reject that doing so constitutes harassment.

 

[dbldee]

1 Thesalonians 15-18
....pray without ceasing.
It implies being continuous or consistent, and it matters not if it is repetitive.
What may matter more, is there is no emotion or meaning which often happens when focus is lost.
In these situations, which is not abnormal, I bring myself back as soon as possible

 

[Jezmeyah]

Do you find prayer repetitive? Do you loose concentration when praying?

Sometimes i rush my prayers without a lot of thought. This is wrong i know. I do try to concentrate but do find it hard.

For those of us who recite the Rosary (Please, no Catholic Bashing on this) i also get lost in the day etc when praying the Rosary.

I know this is all normal but i really do wish i could push aside thoughts of the day, of life and just concentrate on God alone!

Is this the same for you or not. If not, help!

If I may offer this, when you are thinking of daily things, then take that moment to include them in your prayer time with quoting a scripture that would cover it. Thank the Lord for peace, for direction concerning those thoughts., then continue in your usual prayer routine.

No matter who we are, our prayer time is designed not only to be toward God, but God toward us, He is desiring to help us, to answer our prayers,.. if you push your thoughts about the day away, then how can God help you with them?

We Protestant Christians have our prescribed Lord's prayer of Mat.6, and Ps. 23, so we too have to watch that we don't get to a stale point in daily confessing them.

I'd advise that you too not let your Catholic prescribed prayer formula be the only way you address yourself to God, but to allow your thoughts to be the possible promptings of the Lord saying, "I know about that situation in your life, let's talk about it shall we?"

Do you recall Job 23:12 that says, "I have treasured the words of my mouth more than my prescribed portion." I believe this is saying that God speaks to us through His promises during our prayer time that is beyond or additional to the words of our prescribed prayers.

Is it something to consider?

 

[Jezmeyah]

The Our Father said again and again is the Prayer of Jesus. Is that a repetitive prayer? What about reciting the psalms over an over. Please, no Catholic bashing.

The repetition of Psalm 136 proves that repetition is not what's vain. But rather, the vanity or emptiness of praying as the known Gentiles of Jesus' day did, which was to idol gods which neither lived, or heard or had power to aid the idol worshiper.

Could Jesus when he taught about repetitious prayers of those Gentiles be remembering the incident about the prophet of the old testament who issued a challenge to the idol worshipers, to see whose god/God would answer? I'm inclined to believe that it was possible that he was thinking of it.

 

[Rick Otto]

It boils down to intent, doesn't it? Is a prayer offered out of vanity or sincerity?

Your statement that too much become harassment doesn't persuade me. I am Anglican after all. Our worship is centered around common prayer. Although our prayers vary from week to week, the entire Church prays the same prayers every week. Thousands of voices praying the same prayer. I believe there is power in those petitions, including their quantity. Did not our Lord teach us all to pray the same prayer? I reject that doing so constitutes harassment.

My assertion was that too much repetition constitutes harassment.
"Too much' as in "excess" .
Not that repetition itself constitutes harassment.

 

[Goatee]

With the Rosary though its all about concentrating on the 'Mysteries' of Our Lord. Not on the actual 'Hail Mary.

 

[Open Heart]

Well no catholic bashing here, but Jesus said not to use vain repetitions when praying..

We asked for no Catholic Bashing.

 

[Open Heart]

I'm not seeing any Catholic bashing. This thread is actually pretty civil, considering the forum.

Calling all repetition "vain" is Catholic bashing.

 

[Open Heart]

Thus far this discussion pretty much overlooks the meaning of an adjective which is to modify a noun. In this case "vain" modifies "repetitive prayer." The prohibition is not on repetitive prayer but on "Vain repetitive prayer," that is praying for the sake of appearances.

The Bible also says to, "pray without ceasing." Repetitive prayer as practiced in some traditions (e.g., "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner", The Rosary, etc.) is viewed as fulfillment of the admonition to pray without ceasing.

I think if you are publically doing repetitive prayer so others will see you as such a righteous, holy person you are engaging in Vain repetitive prayer. But it you are praying more modestly and privately, what you are doing is praying without ceasing.

Great post.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Do you find prayer repetitive? Do you loose concentration when praying?

Sometimes i rush my prayers without a lot of thought. This is wrong i know. I do try to concentrate but do find it hard.

For those of us who recite the Rosary (Please, no Catholic Bashing on this) i also get lost in the day etc when praying the Rosary.

I know this is all normal but i really do wish i could push aside thoughts of the day, of life and just concentrate on God alone!

Is this the same for you or not. If not, help!

You are still spending time with Yeshua...it is about a relationship.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Do you find prayer repetitive? Do you loose concentration when praying?

Sometimes i rush my prayers without a lot of thought. This is wrong i know. I do try to concentrate but do find it hard.

For those of us who recite the Rosary (Please, no Catholic Bashing on this) i also get lost in the day etc when praying the Rosary.

I know this is all normal but i really do wish i could push aside thoughts of the day, of life and just concentrate on God alone!

Is this the same for you or not. If not, help!

I have found several things to help, and my geronda has suggested others. And I don't know anything about praying the Rosary - my prayers include such things as the formal prayers of the Orthodox Church, the Jesus prayer, extemporaneous prayers for the needs of others/forgiveness/thankfulness, the Psalms, etc. So some of my prayers are read, and some I just pray according to need.

Unless you are just trying to develop a discipline of prayer in the very beginning, reciting prayers without attending to the words is almost useless, and can be more spiritually damaging than edifying. However, yes, we all struggle at some times or others, whether praying personal prayers or formal ones, with distraction, being in a hurry, needs of the day crowding in, or just plain spiritual attack.

One thing that helps is to set aside more time than you will need for your prayers. If you are constantly rushed and can never find the time, and really can't adjust your schedule, then perhaps your prayers are too long? In our Tradition, that would be something to discuss with a spiritual guide/priest/geronda. As a general rule though, it is far more profitable spiritually to pray fewer prayers with full attention than rush through many prayers. It isn't a contest, and we aren't checking off a box of "number of prayers prayed".

At the beginning of a time dedicated to prayer, it is helpful to quiet the mind, direct oneself toward God, meditate on Him for a moment, realize Who we are praying to, etc. Some people find a hymn or praise, etc. to begin to be helpful. And always ask Christ to send the Holy Spirit to put prayer in your heart.

Do concentrate on the words. Savor them. Think about what you are praying. The prayers in my prayer rule change (except the Trisagion, which is a short section), so I am less likely to get stagnant about them. But even so, after having the same rule for many months, I have pretty much memorized all the prayers that go into it. Still, I find that I constantly focus on a different word, a different emphasis, or I find they apply in ways I did not think of before. So it is as if they change and grow with me, even though they are the same prayers.

When your mind wanders (and it almost certainly will, for one reason or another, from time to time) ... don't spend a lot of time beating yourself up about it. That's wasteful of your prayer time and a further distraction. Ask forgiveness quickly, draw your mind back, ask God for help, and either go back to a point where you lost concentration, or pick up concentration from where you are and go on. This part takes practice for nearly all of us. It gets easier the more you do it, though spiritual attacks may intensify over time as you improve. Those are dealt with essentially the same way. (ETA: except I should have mentioned, I always find it good to make the sign of the Cross when spiritual attack is involved - it's not magic of course, but helpful.)

I have noticed that at certain times my mind is much more likely to drift. I like to pray while I am driving, and then my mind is more distractable. But sometimes those drifts actually have something to do with my prayers and my spiritual life. I often turn those thoughts into something to pray about, talk to God about what I am thinking, and then draw myself back if I have a particular purpose to my prayer. It can be profitable both ways. You will probably soon realize which is simple distraction to be ignored, and which is something that can be turned into prayer.

I don't know much at all about Catholic prayers, but I have gotten very good advice from monastics and writings for monastics in the Orthodox Church. I hope some of this may be helpful. Sorry to sound "authoritative" ... I'm really just passing on things others have said that I have benefited from, except the driving in the car part none of it is mine. God be with you.

 

[rockytopva]

I do pray every day using rosary beads I bought off EBay and I say the Lord's prayer a lot. I pray along with the bbnradio.org Family Altar program at 1:15 PM and will insert the following prayer...

With some of the video's I put together I like the image of Jesus, the Bible, along with the rosary beads...

 

[~Anastasia~]

With some of the video's I put together I like the image of Jesus, the Bible, along with the rosary beads...

Hi Rocky, good to see you! (I used to be Kylissa ... I don't get to GT much anymore.)


HAD to comment - what kind of Orthodox Christian am I that you were the one to first mention an image of Jesus? (Teasing! )

But seriously, I don't always have an icon when I pray, but most times I do. I think I have heard that Catholics (replying to Antitems) are encouraged to visualize during prayer? However, this is a very strict no-no in Orthodox teaching. But I find at times, especially when I try to concentrate on the Jesus Prayer, and usually have my eyes closed and am seeking a degree of inner stillness, that is when the hardest attacks can hit. It can be very beneficial to open my eyes and see the icon of Christ, because many of the attacks in my case are images that enter my consciousness.

Sometimes the type of distraction you are hit with, particularly spiritual ones, dictate the best method of dealing with them.

 

[Goatee]

Maybe it is Jesus that helps with the 'correct' imaging i ones mind?

How can one read the Bible without imagining the story / passages etc?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Maybe it is Jesus that helps with the 'correct' imaging i ones mind?

How can one read the Bible without imagining the story / passages etc?

It's a very fine distinction. Maybe I ought not get into it, not sure. (And actually, I'm going to delete about half of my post - I'm getting into things that would be better explained by someone else, and in another forum. I'd suggest The Ancient Way, if you want to know more - hopefully someone there can answer.)

But yes, I imagine the stories happening when I read the Bible. That's not what I'm talking about. I've never heard that mentioned as being a problem.

Specifically though - we are warned most against imagining scenes of Christ (or Angels, Saints, etc.) as though we were a part of them, participating in them, etc, WHILE we are praying, especially. If you really want to know, it would be better for someone more versed in the Fathers to explain. TAW would be a good place to ask - hopefully someone would be able to answer there. But there are a number of reasons for this. Are you familiar with the Philokalia? Those kinds of writings talk about this. Anyway ... there is a danger in being drawn into fantasy, particularly in an emotional sense. We are very careful that what we contemplate be true. (Meditating on Scripture, or the words of the prayers of the Church, etc. is good - we know that what we are thinking is true and right.) And prayers can inspire emotion - it is not that emotion is a bad thing. But if you are at all familiar with some of the delusions (leading to prelest) that can be associated especially with those who pursue a life of prayer, the kinds of imaginings we are not to do is a sort of open door for that kind of thing.

I'm probably not explaining very well, so I've deleted the rest from here. And I'm not trying to criticize Catholicism by mentioning something that we don't agree upon. I really just meant to say that the image can indeed be helpful. The link on prelest can be especially helpful, if you just want to read about it.

 

[Goatee]

Well, it is always good to imagine / see the suffering that Jesus went through for us. I cannot think of anyone who reads about the Passion of Our Lord not to be struct with sorrowful images in ones head!

What is wrong in being with Christ while in prayer? What is wrong with putting an image to the prayer? Can it not be God that is putting that image there?

 

[Tallguy88]

Calling all repetition "vain" is Catholic bashing.

No, it's a legitimate theological belief of many denominations. It's a point that is refutable by Catholics. "Bashing" implies hate or at least an unwillingness to engage with a counter argument. But simple theological disagreement doesn't rise to that level by itself.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well, it is always good to imagine / see the suffering that Jesus went through for us. I cannot think of anyone who reads about the Passion of Our Lord not to be struct with sorrowful images in ones head!

What is wrong in being with Christ while in prayer? What is wrong with putting an image to the prayer? Can it not be God that is putting that image there?

Yes ... It CAN BE God that puts an image there, just as other more experiential aspects can be from God, or be angels, etc.

The problem is that neophytes may not be able to discern, and it has been a common attack of the enemy against certain kinds of persons especially. This is why we submit to a spiritual father if we need one.

Spiritual images, from God, are the source of icons. But we understand they are generally received by illumined and purified souls.

It was not my intent to criticize. As I said, if you wish to know more, feel free to ask in TAW, or read the link I sent. I probably should not have mentioned our differences at all.

I will confess this so perhaps you might understand. I don't know why I have always been drawn to prayer. As a child, with no real family influence (I remember my mother going to church twice during my childhood, and we had a Bible, but I was the only one who ever read it) ... growing up like this, I still prayed as a child, often for hours. I had no idea what I was doing, or really that I WAS praying. As an adult, after I really converted, I loved to pray even more. I prayed every chance I could get - hours at some times of day, and every stolen 15 minutes I could get when busy. I would forgo sleep to pray. On average, probably around 6 hours at some times.

And eventually there came a point when I had so much going on spiritually that I did fall into delusion. I had no idea at the time, no guidance, no oversight. I was probably too far gone and too wrapped up in my experiences to accept it. And there were serious consequences. It may have completely shipwrecked my faith, and that of other lives I touched, were it not for the grace of God. (And I still pray for those others - some I deeply regret where they are now and my part in it. Lord forgive me.)

Because of that, I tend to take warnings very seriously, and share them. Maybe even when I shouldn't. The mire they are needed, the less a person will accept them anyway. Unless it prevents the whole thing from ever starting, it wouldn't matter.

I'm not saying every Catholic who prays that way is deluded. Not at ALL. Of the Catholics I know, none display the spiritual pride and arrogance that are a symptom. I'm only saying there is danger. But maybe another person does not have the same vulnerability as I. Maybe a person has some protection by virtue merely of following the spiritual guidance they've been given. Maybe something else. At any rate, I'm in no position to judge or lead. The most I would ever do is point someone to where to read or who to ask.

It might be best to leave it at this. As I said, if you're interested, reading about prelest can be very enlightening. It's always good to be aware of the wiles of the enemy. I think my life and that of several other people would be very different today if I had known these things many years ago. (I had no idea that what I was doing was practicing hesychasm mixed with Catholic and other practices with no guidance - if you ask anyone who knows what that is, they will tell you I was a fool - and I was.) But I guess having experienced the depths of spiritual problems, and being rescued from them by the grace of God, I'm just too zealous to protect others. Please forgive me.