LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[ToBeLoved]

With the BOA he translated it and put it in book form. With the kinderhook plates he translated 1 figure and did not put it in book form. Where is the pattern?

What does the "hat" have to do with the pattern?

What do you mean "not translating, but seeing"?

In both cases calling something a translation or from God that was not.

Hat. He did not have any form of translation. He put his face in a hat.


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[Peter1000]

This is where you start assuming things not given in scripture.



Unknown. No evidence either way.


God created Adam and Eve with the means to "be fruitful and multiply", and DNA is His design for that process to happen.



God's plan as foretold by the prophets. His ways are beyond our ways; His thoughts are higher than ours.

You say: This is where you start assuming things not given in scripture.

Am I assuming that Mary's conception was miraculous?
Am I assuming that Mary's pregnancy was natural?
Am I assuming that the birth of Jesus was natural?
Am I assuming that Jesus started out as a baby?
Am I assuming that Jesus had a natural childhood?
Am I assuming that Jesus had a natural young adulthood?
Am I assuming that Jesus grew to adulthood naturally?

Are you saying that the scriptures are completely silent from the conception to his baptism about his natural humanity?

I understand that Jesus is the Son of God and that God the Father is his Father and so there is a divinity that is associated with Jesus that is not associated with the rest of us, but he had to be 100% mortal human, and the only way to be that, was to be brought up in the normal, natural way that a mortal human is brought into the world and grows to manhood. I'm not sure why we disagree about this, it seems like Jesus 101?

You say: Unknown. No evidence either way.

So the way that God produces all of the thousands of features in a mortal human being is by their own personal DNA. Is it because the bible doesn't use the word DNA that you are timid about saying that Jesus had his own personal DNA? If he had blue eyes, if he had brown hair, if he was 6' tall, it would indicate that he had DNA that produced those features. OR do you think because of his divinity he was able to bypass the DNA process and by some other means, he was able to produce his blue eyes, his brown hair and his 6' frame? Let men know, I would be interested in what other method you have in mind.

You say: God created Adam and Eve with the means to "be fruitful and multiply", and DNA is His design for that process to happen.

I agree fully. That is why I believe His mortal Son Jesus has DNA also.

You say: God's plan as foretold by the prophets. His ways are beyond our ways; His thoughts are higher than ours.

God's ways are certainly beyond our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. His Son is 100% divine, even at the time of his conception. He also had to be 100% human, how better to get him 100% human than to allow him to be conceived and brought up 100% in the natural human way? What do you think?

 

[Peter1000]

In both cases calling something a translation or from God that was not.

Hat. He did not have any form of translation. He put his face in a hat.


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He put his face in a hat and then from the dark inside of that hat he dictated to scribes 531 typed, single-spaced pages of an extremenly complex book?

Not exactly what you think.

 

[tickingclocker]

I'm done with the kinderhook plates, I have satisfied myself that it is a non-event. I will not respond again on this subject.

I thought you would be.

 

[tickingclocker]

In both cases calling something a translation or from God that was not.

Hat. He did not have any form of translation. He put his face in a hat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While growing up in the mormon church it was always told as JS used the Urim and Thumim to translate the BoM. Now the LDS admits JS stuck his face into his hat with a peepstone in the bottom of it? What happened to the Urim and Thumim he said he had? They didn't work? Did he misplace them somewhere?

I'm tired of all this "Well, it didn't exactly happen the way we've always told you it did, but we meant it for your own good!" Yeah. Sure they did.

 

[Peter1000]

Exactly that - an immaterial object, an immaterial thing. Do you have love? Love is immaterial. Do you have fear? Fear is immaterial. Or do you have nothing in lieu or love or fear or other feelings/emotions (since they "don't exist" on account of their being immaterial)?

Are you equating the Glorious, Living God the Father, the Creator of heaven and earth, that Is, and Was, and Will be Forever, to a rather fickle emotional feeling like love or fear? All for the sake of immateriality? You need to take another look at Mormonism 101, for a brilliant treatise on the materiality of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

We already know that Jesus is material and spiritual, now all you have to do is figure out that the Father is also. Like Father, like Son.

 

[fatboys]

While growing up in the mormon church it was always told as JS used the Urim and Thumim to translate the BoM. Now the LDS admits JS stuck his face into his hat with a peepstone in the bottom of it? What happened to the Urim and Thumim he said he had? They didn't work? Did he misplace them somewhere?

I'm tired of all this "Well, it didn't exactly happen the way we've always told you it did, but we meant it for your own good!" Yeah. Sure they did.

It is said that when Martin lost the 116 pages that the gold plates and the Urim and thummin was taken as well. When the gold plates were returned the Urim and thummin were not. He was to translated another way. The the seer stone. Personally I believe the Urim and thummin were given back to him and those who describe the way he translated the gold plates was by the seer stone in the bottom of the hat never witnessed the translating process. It was common for those who claimed divine stones would stick it in the bottom of hat to see things. Those who stated it eas the stone in the hat, they never witnessed the process so had to describe it the best way they could because Joseph only said that it was done through the interpreters or the Urim and thummin. The same is true with Oliver Cowdrey who scribed most of the Book of Mormon. But that is my opinion. Those that say he used a stone in the bottom of the hat are just putting forward their opinion.

 

[tickingclocker]

It is said that when Martin lost the 116 pages that the gold plates and the Urim and thummin was taken as well. When the gold plates were returned the Urim and thummin were not. He was to translated another way. The the seer stone. Personally I believe the Urim and thummin were given back to him and those who describe the way he translated the gold plates was by the seer stone in the bottom of the hat never witnessed the translating process. It was common for those who claimed divine stones would stick it in the bottom of hat to see things. Those who stated it eas the stone in the hat, they never witnessed the process so had to describe it the best way they could because Joseph only said that it was done through the interpreters or the Urim and thummin. The same is true with Oliver Cowdrey who scribed most of the Book of Mormon. But that is my opinion. Those that say he used a stone in the bottom of the hat are just putting forward their opinion.

If they lied about JS using the hat with a peepstone in it, why should I believe any other stories they use to cover their tracks now? No thanks. I'm good.

All they ever had to do was tell the truth all along. Too little and much too late.

JS's published papers say he used a peepstone in his hat.

 

[fatboys]

If they lied about JS using the hat with a peepstone in it, why should I believe any other stories they use to cover their tracks now? No thanks. I'm good.

All they ever had to do was tell the truth all along. Too little and much too late.

JS's published papers say he used a peepstone in his hat.

They didn't lie. They used their best guess. There is not a lot of info about the process. If the church said that those who had never seen the process were just guessing would not sit well with those historians that believe that was the process. It really doesn't matter how it was translated. We have the fruits of a living prophet. People want to see fraud in any thing that Joseph Smith did. If your looking for a way it will be there.
It really doesn't matter if historians believe it was a stone in a hat. They have not given enough proof to convince me. Trying to understand events is difficult enough when people are a live. Trying to piece it together no matter how good the info is is still guessing when it is after the fact. I guess I'm skeptical that way.

 

[fatboys]

It it is all what the person wants to believe. You don't believe it and no matter what could be presented in a positive way in favor of Joseph, those who hate him will never see any good. Over the years I have presented stories about Joseph Smith and the sacrifices he made to lead the people. Never in all those years did a person who was do critical of him ever say,"wow I didn't know that he cared about anyone but himself". Never once have I heard a critic speak anything positive about Joseph Smith. Yet there are thousands of stories by those who knew him and loved him that tell of his gentileness and that he took people at fave value. When someone sinned against him he never held a grudge especially when they asked for forgiveness. The forgiveness was immediate. And there were those who seriously betrayed him and did ask forgiveness. It did not matter it was as if it never happened. Joseph lived as close to a Christlike life as anyone on earth has ever lived. It is a shame that a person has to strengthen their position in their faith by tearing down a true living prophet.

 

[Peter1000]

While growing up in the mormon church it was always told as JS used the Urim and Thumim to translate the BoM. Now the LDS admits JS stuck his face into his hat with a peepstone in the bottom of it? What happened to the Urim and Thumim he said he had? They didn't work? Did he misplace them somewhere?

I'm tired of all this "Well, it didn't exactly happen the way we've always told you it did, but we meant it for your own good!" Yeah. Sure they did.

I had exactly the same thing happen to me. As I grew up, I learned that JS used to U and T to translate the plates. Then when I got older I learned that at least for a portion of the translating it was done by taking a seer stone and putting it in a hat and translating that way.

I, however, having a testimony already of the prophet JS did not turn on the church and cry foul. I did some more research, and came to a conclusion that if JS used a seer stone and a hat for a portion of the translation, there must have been a good reason. I was willing to accept that.

I had read so many amazing things about JS that when I learned the full truth of the translation, I accepted it, without a problem.

You did not. Why?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Are you equating the Glorious, Living God the Father, the Creator of heaven and earth, that Is, and Was, and Will be Forever, to a rather fickle emotional feeling like love or fear? All for the sake of immateriality?

Are you seriously asking me if I'm equating God with emotions? Do you know how to read?

You need to take another look at Mormonism 101, for a brilliant treatise on the materiality of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

No, I don't. The heresy that is mormon theology is not complicated.

We already know that Jesus is material and spiritual, now all you have to do is figure out that the Father is also. Like Father, like Son.

If that's true, feel free to prove it.

 

[tickingclocker]

I had exactly the same thing happen to me. As I grew up, I learned that JS used to U and T to translate the plates. Then when I got older I learned that at least for a portion of the translating it was done by taking a seer stone and putting it in a hat and translating that way.

I, however, having a testimony already of the prophet JS did not turn on the church and cry foul. I did some more research, and came to a conclusion that if JS used a seer stone and a hat for a portion of the translation, there must have been a good reason. I was willing to accept that.

I had read so many amazing things about JS that when I learned the full truth of the translation, I accepted it, without a problem.

You did not. Why?

Because by then, I had already been out of the church for many, many years.

Why not just tell the truth from the beginning, and let the chips fall where they may?

Unlike you, I see no need to excuse lying "for a good cause", or even "white lies". Lying is lying. Seems to me Mormons have to do an awful lot of "I was willing to accept that". In other words, close your eyes. I prefer to keep mine open. That is why I left mormonism. Not because "I turned on the church and cried foul". Mormonism turned on me. That should count as nothing in your eyes? I have some swampland in the middle of a desert to sell you, if so. Going cheap! Only $5.9 million an acre!

 

[ViaCrucis]

I have not necessarily jumped to a conclusion. If you have an immaterial object, what do you have? Please explain to me what you have?

An immaterial object.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ToBeLoved]

He put his face in a hat and then from the dark inside of that hat he dictated to scribes 531 typed, single-spaced pages of an extremenly complex book?

Not exactly what you think.

Pretty much. Put horses and non-existant animals and materials. A little false Hebrew DNA and a lot of stories. And Poof #

 

[dzheremi]

I did some more research, and came to a conclusion that if JS used a seer stone and a hat for a portion of the translation, there must have been a good reason.

What is that reason? I honestly can't think of one, outside of the occult/magic/'spiritual eye' (read: not real, fake, chicanery) kind of environment among a certain type of person that JS took advantage of in peddling his work as something legitimate when it wasn't. But if you say there is a reason, I'd like to hear it.

Because it seems to me that if Joseph could actually translate Egyptian, there would be no reason to do that. Champollion, the man who is actually credited with the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphs, did not translate the Rosetta stone that way, and he was a contemporary of JS (he died in 1832). So it can't be a matter of people in Joseph Smith's time thinking that this was an acceptable way to translate things. But I would imagine that if you're in an environment where people are prone to believing in things like 'second sight' via 'spiritual eyes' (not actual sight with actual eyes), having a magic stone with which to see things in visions would be a handy way to gaining credibility that you wouldn't otherwise have if you were actually translating something that you knew you had no idea of how to translate. Say you can read Egyptian and other people who can will call you on it when you produce nonsense, either in your own time or afterwards (trouble was in JS' time Champollion's work was not available in the USA). Say you have a magic rock and you can put it into a hat and it will give you divine translations or whatever, and nobody can say it doesn't (particularly if they're predisposed to believing that this is something that's possible; today it sounds ridiculous, of course).

 

[fatboys]

What is that reason?

Because it seems to me that if Joseph could actually translate Egyptian, there would be no reason to do that. Champollion, the man who is actually credited with the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphs, did not translate the Rosetta stone that way, and he was a contemporary of JS (he died in 1832). So it can't be a matter of people in Joseph Smith's time thinking that this was an acceptable way to translate things. What is the reason?

Who is to say what is or is not acceptable?

 

[dzheremi]

People who can actually read Egyptian.

They don't agree with what Joseph Smith came up with, or people who defend what Joseph Smith came up with: Because what Joseph Smith came up with was absolute nonsense.

 

[ToBeLoved]

He put his face in a hat and then from the dark inside of that hat he dictated to scribes 531 typed, single-spaced pages of an extremenly complex book?

Not exactly what you think.

He didn't do it in one day. Maybe you don't understand your own religions history.

I also believe there was one scribe.

 

[fatboys]

People who can actually read Egyptian.

They don't agree with what Joseph Smith came up with, or people who defend what Joseph Smith came up with: Because what Joseph Smith came up with was absolute nonsense.

Well your wrong. Abraham was teaching the gospel using the characters they were familiar with.