How does one distinguish a 'belief' from a delusion?

[ToddNotTodd]

Assuming there's a process that takes time for God to create such beings, who's to say He's not doing that right now?

An omnipotent god needs time to do something? Why wouldn't that god just start out creating people that way, instead of setting up a hell for the first, flawed version of humans? Seems horribly immoral.

 

[razzelflabben]

Showing me how I have "twisted" another person's argument is against the rules, but wrongfully claiming that I have done so isn't against the rules?

go figure, you get away with wrongfully claiming things about others all the time, but in this case, all I said is that you seemed to be misrepresenting again, no wrong accusation in that.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

go figure, you get away with wrongfully claiming things about others all the time, but in this case, all I said is that you seemed to be misrepresenting again, no wrong accusation in that.

What have I wrongfully claimed? What have I misrepresented? Either demonstrate the misrepresentation or retract your claim and apologise.

 

[Chriliman]

we can say all kinds of things, but the quote you are responding to pointed out that scripture says that God created hell for Satan and his demons. It's a pretty straight forward comment, a bit hard to misunderstand I would think.

Agreed.

The atheist will ask "Why would an all loving God create a place of never ending torment?" It's a good question and we need to have the right answer. I'm still questioning the right answer because there are many different ways to interpret the scripture that say 'eternal punishment' and what that was really intended to mean.

Not the appropriate thread for this discussion, maybe another time we can discuss it

 

[razzelflabben]

An omnipotent god needs time to do something? Why wouldn't that god just start out creating people that way, instead of setting up a hell for the first, flawed version of humans? Seems horribly immoral.

Why would it be any more immoral than evolution for example, where we keep reinventing life so to speak? Or any more or less immoral than aborting babies or killing cops because some black punk got killed trying to avoid arrest? I don't get your claim here is another way to say the same thing. God isn't about morality, we talked about that, He is about justice. If justice is allowing for an evolution of humanity, how would that be immoral in any way?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

what about all the atheists turned christian? Like our friend from church? I don't see any connection between the quoted poster and your comment, please explain the connection so we can follow your argument

The poster had talked about praying to god. As a Christian, I prayed to god. Now I realize that I had no reason to believe that I was actually getting an answer from a god.

That's the connection.

 

[razzelflabben]

What have I wrongfully claimed? What have I misrepresented? Either demonstrate the misrepresentation or retract your claim and apologise.

way old news, already forgiven

 

[Archaeopteryx]

way old news, already forgiven

What's already forgiven?

 

[razzelflabben]

Agreed.

The atheist will ask "Why would an all loving God create a place of never ending torment?" It's a good question and we need to have the right answer. I'm still questioning the right answer because there are many different ways to interpret the scripture that say 'eternal punishment' and what that was really intended to mean.

Not the appropriate thread for this discussion, maybe another time we can discuss it

agreed, it is off topic, but my only comment was to correct what was said with what scripture clearly says. Anything else about hell is off topic and not open for debate here which is why I didn't answer the one question you asked about Satan and choice.

 

[razzelflabben]

The poster had talked about praying to god. As a Christian, I prayed to god. Now I realize that I had no reason to believe that I was actually getting an answer from a god.

That's the connection.

thanks, that helps, so who do you think you were getting an answer from?

 

[razzelflabben]

What's already forgiven?

since this seems to be intended to goad me into some flaming war, it is being ignored.

 

[Chriliman]

An omnipotent god needs time to do something? Why wouldn't that god just start out creating people that way, instead of setting up a hell for the first, flawed version of humans? Seems horribly immoral.

Again, when you say 'God creates', it's axiomatic that a process is involved and processes require time to be completed. We could be in the process (so to speak) right now. If you want to flat out deny that possibility then that's your choice, however, if you do deny it then it just looks like your in denial because it's completely logical and possible.

Btw, I'm one who believes God's work takes time to be completed, but God also knows all things that happen at all times and this is how his work is perfectly accomplished, over time.

 

[quatona]

A God or a god? Two different things, thus two different answers

It read there, clearly.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

since this seems to be intended to goad me into some flaming war, it is being ignored.

I'm still waiting for your apology. You claimed that I "twisted" something, and that I misrepresented something. You can't back up those claims up now, so I'm expecting an apology. There is no goading, since that would obviously accomplish nothing. All I'm asking you to do is to substantiate your claims about my alleged misrepresentations of others or apologise for making such a claim against me.

 

[devolved]

Why would a any government that created prisons as threat to stop people or make them think twice from doing bad things that affect the lives of the innocent, be worthy of pledging allegiance too?

Nah. There are so many wrong things with this analogy, and comparing prison to hell that I probably wouldn't have time to address it all in this short break I have.

1) Government is not a God-like authority. It's made up of people. It's something that we delegate the managerial responsibility in a corporate set up of our country. They didn't build prisons. We collectively build prisons. We collectively agree on the laws... and we collectively choose to participate in this set-up. It's a contractual and business relationship.

2) Prisons are not meant to be a form of torment and punishment. Prisons are meant to be a form of rehabilitation, which they accomplish very poorly... but the point is that we tend to look to educate and rehabilitate people to be productive members of society first. We don't just strap them up to a car battery and let it simmer.

3) We actually see the government. Government structure and officials. It isn't playing hide and seek with us. We can dial 911 for help. We can visit the Washington and even talk to the elected officials. It's not a hide and seek game where we have to guess as to whether the government even exists, and then listen to the supposed representatives tell us that we have imaginary disease that falls in line with our shortcomings, and that they only have information on how to cure that disease... but only after we die.

4) We actually have something called trials by jury of peers

5) We have punishments that fit the crime.

6) We don't put a litterbug to death, and we don't let the convicted murderer off the hook because a president decided to step in and experience clinical death and be resuscitated and then claim that he suffered the death penalty on behalf of the every murderer that believes that the President done that and that it's a free gift to every criminal who is willing to stop doing crime in exchange for that gift.

That would be a definition of injustice.

I could go on and on, but it's a very poor analogy.

 

[Chriliman]

agreed, it is off topic, but my only comment was to correct what was said with what scripture clearly says. Anything else about hell is off topic and not open for debate here which is why I didn't answer the one question you asked about Satan and choice.

Got it, no problem.

 

[razzelflabben]

It read there, clearly.

So, big G God, meaning a real God not a man made god...give me a moment to review the question so I am sure to answer it and not how I remember it...you asked...
What could a God possibly do so that you wouldn´t consider Him deserving of worship?

In clarification you are asking about a true, living God and not a man made god. I would have to say, probably not much by the very nature that a real true living God is pretty awesome if you think about it and getting on His good side would seem to be a pretty wise way to go. I mean, come on, think about it, a real, live, God, it would have to be some really seriously bad stuff for me to not worship Him, like I don't know, my mind can't even think of anything.

Small g god, now that is a much different thing.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Why would it be any more immoral than evolution for example, where we keep reinventing life so to speak?

Morality has to do with the actions of living beings. Evolution can't by definition be immoral.

Or any more or less immoral than aborting babies or killing cops because some black punk got killed trying to avoid arrest?

I don't think comparing a god to humanity makes any sense at all. I think if I were to believe in a god, it would be a god that acted at least as moral as the best, not the worst, of us. Would you be content with a god that acts like the worst members of society?

I don't get your claim here is another way to say the same thing. God isn't about morality, we talked about that, He is about justice. If justice is allowing for an evolution of humanity, how would that be immoral in any way?

Because an omnipotent god wouldn't need to "evolve" us.

And if I replace the word "morality" with "loving" does your opinion change? Because sending the majority of "humans version 1.0" to everlasting torment, when it wasn't necessary to do so, isn't in any way loving to me.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

thanks, that helps, so who do you think you were getting an answer from?

Well, I was thinking I'll get a response from the poster who's post I was commenting on.

 

[Ronald]

All non-evidenced claims are equal. So I can say "you're wrong about all your god claims" and it holds the same weight as your god claims.

Todd, do you know who you are? It seems your claim to be Todd is not Todd. I think you're confused!