How does one distinguish a 'belief' from a delusion?

[devolved]

Disagree, don't have much for ya.

So far... you don't.

 

[razzelflabben]

Why would a god who created a Hell be deserving of worship?

why wouldn't HE?

 

[devolved]

Alcohol does that, drugs as well. The integration of the mind and brain are complex, like mix a tsp of salt with a glass of water, two become one, yet you can separate them.

So... if the physical body develops from the division and growth of physical cells and parents genetic make-up ... where does the soul come from? Where does it reside prior to the point of the brain development during the pregnancy stages?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

why wouldn't HE?

Because it would seem clearly malevolent to create such a place as Hell.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Personally, I interpreted the OP question to be talking about after we believe something, but I totally love this analogy about getting to the belief...

Thanks, Razz. I tried to stay true to subject in that, for example, after I believed there was something there (after I found my way out of the woods and the reasons for that) I then tried to touch somewhat on the why's and that we couldn't always distinguish how it was belief or delusion, but it may not matter. However, maybe I was a little fuzzy there and didn't stick as close to topic as I thought.

 

[Ronald]

Anything specific that can be tied to a place and time? Otherwise its just another in the thousands of come and gone prophecies of the end times that have been going on for about the last 1950 years.

I had a look at that book on Google Books. 20 minutes in and I'm seriously unimpressed - most if it is just regurgitated biblical commentaries and personal rants.

When it does try to deal with the real world there's at least one major factual error per page, sometimes multiple per page. Claims that there are fragments of the New Testament from 20-30 years after Jesus death, there was a worldwide global flood, the Bible reads like it was written by one author, yadda, yadda, yadda. Easily checkable stuff.

If that's your standard of evidence, I suggest you raise your standard.

Actually, yes, but you won't take it seriously. Since you are unimpressed with the book which renown Phd's have been, there is no need to post anything. This is a common position with unbelievers. They reject God, the Bible and are repulsed by our religion. Whatever good that is in the world, it is because of Jesus! You choose to go against Him and that will be your mistake.
"But the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."1 Cor 2:14

But what the heck, I'll give you a little something to chew natural man, something that is not all spiritually discerned.

The disciples asked Jesus this same question:

“As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?’” Matt. 24:3

“And He said to them, ‘Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.’” Matt. 24:2 NASB

The Temple was destroyed as He said it would be but the other two parts of the question concerned a future time. He then gave us signs of that time.

He said there would be wars and rumors of wars, famine, earthquakes, hatred, persecution, a falling away from faith, false prophets, increased crime, peoples love will grow cold, signs in the heavens and that the Gospel will be preached in all the world and then the end will come. The end of what? He will put an end to the world of Sin and Evil that permeates all life. Those are the birth pangs. Earth is moving quickly toward its final days. The idea that man can make world peace, eliminate poverty and recreate a pollution-free environment where all life flourishes is beyond our ability to accomplish without God.

As the pangs of a woman in labor increase in intensity and frequency until she gives birth, so will all these signs.

One of the major prophecies that has been fulfilled recently in our generation is the re-gathering of the Jews back to Israel.

“but - As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.’ For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.” Jer. 16:15 NASB “Say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD, - Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;’” Ezek. 37:21 NASB

After more than eighteen hundred years, they came back home. Generally they kept to their own, continued on with their religion and their families were fruitful and multiplied. The Jewish nation became a state again in 1948 but it wasn't complete until they had Jerusalem, The Holy City, in 1967. "Gather yourselves together, yes, gather, O nation without shame, Before the decree takes effect - The day passes like the chaff - Before the burning anger of the LORD comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD’S anger comes upon you. Seek the LORD, All you humble of the earth Who have carried out His ordinances; Seek righteousness, seek humility. Perhaps you will be hidden in the day of the Lord’s anger.” Zeph. 2:1-3. NASB

This re-gathering of Israel is significant. The tension in the world is focused in the Middle East. This area is where the final conflict will ignite.

The clock started to tick, signaling the downfall of the Great Gentile powers. I would agree that our downward spiral of moral decay began shortly before that time. So, Jesus said that “this generation” (in the context of His return), shall see all these things come to pass. One generation is “three score plus ten years” = 70 Add that to 1948 and you get 2018.

I would say coupled with this, the gospel being preached to the entire world, then the end will come is pretty significant. All the other predictions for this happening in past generations DID NOT CONFORM TO PROPHECY.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Actually, yes, but you won't take it seriously. Since you are unimpressed with the book which renown Phd's have been, there is no need to post anything. This is a common position with unbelievers. They reject God, the Bible and are repulsed by our religion. Whatever good that is in the world, it is because of Jesus! You choose to go against Him and that will be your mistake.
"But the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."1 Cor 2:14

Perhaps your argument isn't as convincing as you think it is?

 

[quatona]

why wouldn't HE?

What could a God possibly do so that you wouldn´t consider Him deserving of worship?

 

[Chriliman]

Why would a god who created a Hell be deserving of worship?

Assuming God can create beings who are truly free to listen to him and do right or not, then it's the wrong actions of God's creation that creates hell. IOW, there would be no hell if we'd all just listen to God and do what's right and this is why God is worthy of our worship.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Why would a god who created a Hell be deserving of worship?

Why would a any government that created prisons as threat to stop people or make them think twice from doing bad things that affect the lives of the innocent, be worthy of pledging allegiance too?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Why would a any government that created prisons as threat to stop people or make them think twice from doing bad things that affect the lives of the innocent, be worthy of pledging allegiance too?

Disanalogy. What government punishes the smallest infarction with an eternity of conscious torment? Would you call such a government "just"?

 

[razzelflabben]

Because it would seem clearly malevolent to create such a place as Hell.

that does not answer the question at all....

 

[Ronald]

Why would a god who created a Hell be deserving of worship?

Actually, this was the main motivation of the book. You see, unlike traditional Christianity, I do not believe in eternal Hell. It is more of an event, like throwing someone into a Lake of Fire and destroying them. I too, have a problem with God creating an eternal torture chamber and this is a good argument against eternal Hell. This doesn't glorify Him. Those in Heaven could not enjoy eternity with this knowledge of people suffering endlessly, so He would have to erase that from our memories. Even if He did, (and sin and evil memories would be logical to erase in Paradise), He would still have this awareness Himself. Why sustain punishment for people who have only sinned for a few decades or even eighty years? That is not justice as I see it. This is not the justice he teaches us in the Bible. Anyways, I partly agree with you. That said, if I am wrong, I would still worship God because I want to live forever and I'm sure His plan is perfect and just. We don't always understand, it's above our ability. Think about it, you know yourself and everything you did in life. God knows you better and 7 billion other people as well.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

that does not answer the question at all....

What kind of answer were you expecting?

 

[razzelflabben]

Thanks, Razz. I tried to stay true to subject in that, for example, after I believed there was something there (after I found my way out of the woods and the reasons for that) I then tried to touch somewhat on the why's and that we couldn't always distinguish how it was belief or delusion, but it may not matter. However, maybe I was a little fuzzy there and didn't stick as close to topic as I thought.

Oh, I don't think the OP is as specific as the poster intended from the discussion so far.

I would however like to add an element that I don't thing either of us has touched on that might be important to the discussion and fits your analogy well. That is the role of landmarks. I think even in beliefs, we can have landmarks that help us find out way. Scripture even talks about not leaving man without evidence. I think of these as more of landmarks to mark our way than anything else. Man seems to be drawn to God, the trick is finding our way to Him. Just a thought for what it's worth

 

[razzelflabben]

What could a God possibly do so that you wouldn´t consider Him deserving of worship?

A God or a god? Two different things, thus two different answers

 

[razzelflabben]

Assuming God can create beings who are truly free to listen to him and do right or not, then it's the wrong actions of God's creation that creates hell. IOW, there would be no hell if we'd all just listen to God and do what's right and this is why God is worthy of our worship.

not according to scripture...according to scripture, hell was created for Satan and his demons, not for man at all. Just saying...

 

[Kenny'sID]

Disanalogy. What government punishes the smallest infarction with an eternity of conscious torment? Would you call such a government "just"?

The analogy is perfect, your disconnection from reality, refusal to see it, and ability to throw a bunch of meaningless words at it, in attempt to refute it, is perfect as well.

First, what is this torment? Life in prison is likely torment, if it weren't some kind of torment, what's the point? Is Hell more or less torment? How much more or less, oh, you don't know?
Secondly, God just goes to different levels, just as someone may not like a prison, because they don't like the punishment doesn't make it unfair. The authority doesn't care if you *think* it's unfair.

The analogy is and analogy, not an exact replica and once again, works just fine, and not something you can refute, but I always get a kick out of watching you try...have at it.

 

[Chriliman]

not according to scripture...according to scripture, hell was created for Satan and his demons, not for man at all. Just saying...

Right, hell was created because of the wrong choices of satan and his demons. Or do you think satan didn't actually have a choice? I don't think God created hell for the heck of it, he has his righteous reasons for allowing things to exist and hell is the result of evil actions.

 

[razzelflabben]

Disanalogy. What government punishes the smallest infarction with an eternity of conscious torment? Would you call such a government "just"?

please stop trying to twist arguments to suit your agenda...it wasn't even my argument and I can see how badly you twisted it...let's discuss in peace not with intent to stir anger and hostility, okay?