From faith to fact.

[ScottA]

And yet we hear from plenty of ex-Christians who had faith and yet, had nothing. What do you suppose they were doing wrong?

They went out for fastfood. They were too impatient ( "of little faith").

God has given us life for life. He has allotted to each of us, our whole lives to go from the certainty of death to life. Should He have been less generous or patient?

 

[tallbouy]

I say the Bible is the word of God, you say it isn't.

I don't say it isn't because I don't care either way, you just can't prove that it is, we know it's the words of men who said it was the word of God, you {because you need something to cling to} have decided to believe the men.

 

[ScottA]

Primarily? We should believe men just because they claim to be inspired by God?

You are under no obligation to believe anyone. You have been given a token's worth of life, and we have shared our experience of discovering unlimited wealth. If you are not interested, don't pass go.

 

[tallbouy]

God has given us life for life. He has allotted to each of us, our whole lives to go from the certainty of death to life. Should He have been less generous or patient?

Do you tithe?

 

[ScottA]

I don't say it isn't because I don't care either way, you just can't prove that it is, we know it's the words of men who said it was the word of God, you {because you need something to cling to} have decided to believe the men.

That may be true for some, but not for all - not for me. I did not "believe" men, but called out to God as a last resort...and He answered. The things you hear from some of us - we do not "believe", but "know" for certain.

 

[ScottA]

Do you tithe?

You know not what you ask.

But since you have said something you do not understand, I will explain: The whole subject of tithing is to teach the giving up of what we value in this world - which is the key to eternal life. We lay down, - not our money, but our lives - that we may take them up again, and live forever.

Those who seek to save their life, will lose it.

 

[amariselle]

I don't say it isn't because I don't care either way, you just can't prove that it is, we know it's the words of men who said it was the word of God, you {because you need something to cling to} have decided to believe the men.

False.

You don't know why I believe the Bible to be the word of God, and you have no right to say you do.

 

[amariselle]

Primarily? We should believe men just because they claim to be inspired by God?

No, you should believe God.

 

[JacksBratt]

Am I too arrogant and/or superior for not accepting Allah and his prophet, Mohammed to be Allah's final word? What about accepting Vishnu? or Hanuman the Monkey God as the Divine Creator? What about not accepting the claims of Homeopathy, Astrology, Reiki, Antivaxxers, and any number of hocking Woo that's out there? Why is your particular version of your particular God expected a free pass?

I would have no idea whatsoever. We were talking about my belief in the word of God, namely the Holy Bible.

Please don't muddy the water and deflect from the one discipline that we are talking about. Do you see any forums out there for those other deities worshipers? If so, ask them.

 

[JacksBratt]

Good.
And yet we hear from plenty of ex-Christians who had faith and yet, had nothing. What do you suppose they were doing wrong?

I have no idea. How in the world do you expect me to answer that.

And if I do likewise, I'll have the power to discuss the Bible?

There is no "power" to discuss the Bible. However, if you were able to actually have enough faith to get on your knees and admit you are a sinner to a God you cannot see or have proof of, but believe He is there based on no more than faith in the words of an ancient book....and truly, truly believe you need His saving grace....You won't have any more "power" to discuss the bible but you will read it like you had a new set of eyes. You would understand stuff that meant nothing to you before....

But, those are big "ifs".

Here's an example of what I mean. There is a Canadian body building coach. He trains Olympic athletes and they win medals. Not just Canadian athletes but for other countries too. He is an expert in building strength without gaining weight, building endurance, powerful bursts of strength and other difficult accomplishments, using various training regimes. Now here is the example. He went to a country that was doing amazing things with their athletes in the strength gaining and power sports. He wanted to learn their techniques and methods to develop world class athletes that seemed years ahead of the rest. He found a bunch of training manuals but the language they were written in was foreign to him. So, he had them translated. The translator had no experience in the field of strength training. As a result the manuals were in fact translated to english but they were still not near what they could be. They were confusing and a waste of time to read. So, this guy learned the language that the books were written in. Then and only then could he get the full meaning of the manuals and apply this knowledge in his own training programs... His athletes then began to respond to the techniques he learned when and only when he fully understood the information.

I guess then I'll just have to let the "saved" people use their magic book to try to control my life.

Oh no, your on your own. I'm not taking any responsibility for your life..... I have enough things in my own to worry about. You go, you control your life. Christ has the steering wheel in mine.

Of course, if I try to debate them, I'll actually be debating God... and if I cite the Bible, I'll be summarily dismissed.

Why would you be summarily dismissed? Sounds like sour grapes.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You are under no obligation to believe anyone. You have been given a token's worth of life, and we have shared our experience of discovering unlimited wealth. If you are not interested, don't pass go.

The only problem with that "unlimited wealth" is that by the time you try to cash in, you'll be far too dead to demand a refund.

 

[TLK Valentine]

No, you should believe God.

He's got to say something before I can believe it.

...and here's where you say "The Bible is the word of God..."

...and I respond with "so says fallen men..."

...and you say "inspired by God..."

...And I say, "so they say..."

And around and around we go.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I have no idea. How in the world do you expect me to answer that.

I appreciate your honesty -- just checking to make sure that faith is no guarantee... you'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) at how many Christians say otherwise.

There is no "power" to discuss the Bible. However, if you were able to actually have enough faith to get on your knees and admit you are a sinner to a God you cannot see or have proof of, but believe He is there based on no more than faith in the words of an ancient book....and truly, truly believe you need His saving grace....You won't have any more "power" to discuss the bible but you will read it like you had a new set of eyes. You would understand stuff that meant nothing to you before....

But, those are big "ifs".

Of course, there are other ways to accomplish the same thing -- no person reads the same book twice; their life experiences always influence what they do or do not get out of it.

Here's an example of what I mean. There is a Canadian body building coach. He trains Olympic athletes and they win medals. Not just Canadian athletes but for other countries too. He is an expert in building strength without gaining weight, building endurance, powerful bursts of strength and other difficult accomplishments, using various training regimes. Now here is the example. He went to a country that was doing amazing things with their athletes in the strength gaining and power sports. He wanted to learn their techniques and methods to develop world class athletes that seemed years ahead of the rest. He found a bunch of training manuals but the language they were written in was foreign to him. So, he had them translated. The translator had no experience in the field of strength training. As a result the manuals were in fact translated to english but they were still not near what they could be. They were confusing and a waste of time to read. So, this guy learned the language that the books were written in. Then and only then could he get the full meaning of the manuals and apply this knowledge in his own training programs... His athletes then began to respond to the techniques he learned when and only when he fully understood the information.

That's called "learning a new language." No faith is necessary.

Oh no, your on your own. I'm not taking any responsibility for your life..... I have enough things in my own to worry about. You go, you control your life. Christ has the steering wheel in mine.

And yet, so many Christians want to use their Bibles as the basis for the laws of my country -- laws I'll be forced to abide by.

Why would you be summarily dismissed? Sounds like sour grapes.

Because I usually am when I try to discuss the Bible -- I apparently deal with a great number of cowards who like to throw 1 Corinthians 2:14 in my face and run away from debate.

 

[amariselle]

He's got to say something before I can believe it.

...and here's where you say "The Bible is the word of God..."

...and I respond with "so says fallen men..."

...and you say "inspired by God..."

...And I say, "so they say..."

And around and around we go.

Well, you don't need to go "around and around". The same evidence is available to you as is available to me.

What you do or don't do with it is up to you, not me, and not anyone else.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well, you don't need to go "around and around". The same evidence is available to you as is available to me.

Except it's not about evidence, it's about subjective experience.

 

[amariselle]

Except it's not about evidence, it's about subjective experience.

It is about evidence, but not all evidence is the same. There are different kinds of evidence.

 

[TLK Valentine]

It is about evidence, but not all evidence is the same. There are different kinds of evidence.

And while there are many people who consider spectral evidence to be acceptable, I, personally, am not one of them. It would appear then, that we are at an impasse.

 

[amariselle]

And while there are many people who consider spectral evidence to be acceptable, I, personally, am not one of them. It would appear then, that we are at an impasse.

I agree.

 

[tallbouy]

You know not what you ask.

I know exactly what I'm asking.

But since you have said something you do not understand, I will explain: The whole subject of tithing is to teach the giving up of what we value in this world - which is the key to eternal life. We lay down, - not our money, but our lives - that we may take them up again, and live forever.

You missed out the all important word, "Hope".

Those who seek to save their life, will lose it.

Lovely words and sentiment that changes nothing, you have been conned by fair words and lies into giving up a percentage of your earnings in order to perpetuate a myth.

 

[tallbouy]

It is about evidence, but not all evidence is the same. There are different kinds of evidence.

Yes there is the kind of evidence that is not really evidence at all, "The sun rose this morning so that's evidence of God"
all believers are doing is fooling themselves into believing exactly what they want to believe regardless of truth.