LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Peter1000]

God did not need a sperm or an egg to create Adam and Eve. Eve was created from Adam's rib, not fluid from his genitals.

While Mary, being a human female, could be assumed to have had a human egg in her, but God did not need to "deposit" a sperm to create Jesus' human body. He did not even need Mary's egg and we have no information that He used such an egg. God is the Creator and spoke the world into existance, He doesn't need help. But that flies in the face of lds theology about not creating something from nothing and, therefore, you have to go with the incorrect sperm/egg theory.

Why didn't God create Jesus the same way He created Adam?

Why mess with getting a woman pregnant?

Why mess with a 9 month pregnancy?

Why mess with a painful birth?

If God could have created Jesus out of nothing, why didn't he?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Why didn't God create Jesus the same way He created Adam?

God never created Jesus, Jesus is God and is not a creation but rather He is the Creator. The Father begot the Son, but there is no creation involved in that.

Why mess with getting a woman pregnant?

Because Jesus was fully man and other than Adam and Eve men are born of women.

Why mess with a 9 month pregnancy?

That's the normal term for a pregnancy but we don't know that Mary's term was 9 months.

Why mess with a painful birth?

It's part of Christ being born as fully man.

If God could have created Jesus out of nothing, why didn't he?

Jesus is God and couldn't "create" Himself.

The bigger issue is that where the Bible doesn't say something we can't presume something, especially when it comes to what God does. Mary's birthing of Christ is a "virgin birth" - Mary was and remained a virgin while being pregnant and giving birth to Christ. This means that Christ's birth does not follow our scientific knowledge of pregnancy. When we are presented with phenomena that does not fit into our scientific (natural) knowledge, it is outside or above the natural, aka "supernatural". Supernatural phenomena performed by God are known as miracles.

Jesus' incarnation (and Mary's pregnancy) is a miracle. Why would someone want to explain it with our scientific knowledge? We don't try to explain the parting of the Red Sea, or the burning bush, or Jesus walking on water, or the other miracles - we accept them as the work of a supernatural God who is above the laws of our science and nature.

So, to try to understand Christ's birth as something natural is to ignore what God's Word actually says and what it doesn't say and then to try to explain that miracle in a way that we wouldn't try to explain other miracles.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why didn't God create Jesus the same way He created Adam?

Why mess with getting a woman pregnant?

Why mess with a 9 month pregnancy?

Why mess with a painful birth?

If God could have created Jesus out of nothing, why didn't he?

Why would He have? It would be believable that a baby came from no where? Poof, there it is.

 

[mmksparbud]

To me if God wanted us to know He would have told us. I think that a sperm was just supernaturally deposited in her body and naturally fertilized with her egg. But that is IMHO.

Your humble opinion is not far off IMHO. That's why I think the Highest (God) was overshadowing her, was to supernaturally deposit sperm into her body, so that the egg could be naturally fertilized. Thank you for that.

There is a problem with this--- which is that this implies that there must have been another Jesus made! Which leaves the original still intact! In the first place, the original was not created, always was---if there was a sperm from God involved into that egg, then it is creating A Jesus but there already was a Jesus. Am I making myself clear?? There can be only one way for this to have happened and it does not involve the making of another Jesus at all---it is quite simply as the bible says---Jesus became human. the Holy Spirit worked with God and somehow Jesus Himself was made into an embryo and planted in her womb. The complexity of such a thing is amazing, but it is what the bible says---JESUS BECAME HUMAN. There was not one Jesus in heaven and God the Holy Spirit and Mary made another one!

 

[tickingclocker]

I didn't mind that you rejected the articles analysis, I expected it, but it is the way you rejected the information. It lead me to think that you really were not searching for the truth, but you were using the plates non-event for something else.

The Kinderhook plates is a non-event.

Of course Kinderhook is considered a "non-event" to you. (Would you think the same if JS had fully "translated" them and they unquestionably supported -- the Trinity? Yes.) It is a non-event to Christians as well, but for very, very different reasons than what Mormons like to believe.

This is the fundamental problem with Christians and Mormons. We ARE searching for the truth within mormonism, but cannot support it the way you have do and obey God at the same time. We insist upon biblical standards God Himself put in place: not go be feelings, other books, what men happen to claim, or suggesting that God is counter-productive to what He has to say to us cannot be preserved by His power! Because of mere men? LOL!! The bible plainly shows humans are never more powerful than God! Mormons don't want us to believe that, but we steadfastly refuse to accept any other path. (Where's Christianity's infamous "apostasy" in that?) Mormons want us to accept what they do, ONE man's biblically unsupportable opinions of what God says. God says trust HIM, not man--so that's what we do. Obey God. Not man. If something doesn't meet biblical testing, it FAILS. End of subject. Any scriptural truth should be able to be found within the bible. God doesn't say one thing, then the entire opposite somewhere else. IF its found anywhere else, and disagrees with God's Word? It's not scriptural. That's why the Apocrypha/Pseudographica remains separate in its own unique category as questionable, even by those who kept it.

 

[tickingclocker]

God never created Jesus, Jesus is God and is not a creation but rather He is the Creator. The Father begot the Son, but there is no creation involved in that.


Because Jesus was fully man and other than Adam and Eve men are born of women.


That's the normal term for a pregnancy but we don't know that Mary's term was 9 months.


It's part of Christ being born as fully man.


Jesus is God and couldn't "create" Himself.

The bigger issue is that where the Bible doesn't say something we can't presume something, especially when it comes to what God does. Mary's birthing of Christ is a "virgin birth" - Mary was and remained a virgin while being pregnant and giving birth to Christ. This means that Christ's birth does not follow our scientific knowledge of pregnancy. When we are presented with phenomena that does not fit into our scientific (natural) knowledge, it is outside or above the natural, aka "supernatural". Supernatural phenomena performed by God are known as miracles.

Jesus' incarnation (and Mary's pregnancy) is a miracle. Why would someone want to explain it with our scientific knowledge? We don't try to explain the parting of the Red Sea, or the burning bush, or Jesus walking on water, or the other miracles - we accept them as the work of a supernatural God who is above the laws of our science and nature.

So, to try to understand Christ's birth as something natural is to ignore what God's Word actually says and what it doesn't say and then to try to explain that miracle in a way that we wouldn't try to explain other miracles.

Mormons always seem to need explanations, rather than accept on faith the things of God. JS was not comfortable with the mysteries of God, which is why they follow their leader, fully accepting his limited "knowledge" which openly contradicts what God's Word says in the bible.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is a problem with this--- which is that this implies that there must have been another Jesus made! Which leaves the original still intact! In the first place, the original was not created, always was---if there was a sperm from God involved into that egg, then it is creating A Jesus but there already was a Jesus. Am I making myself clear?? There can be only one way for this to have happened and it does not involve the making of another Jesus at all---it is quite simply as the bible says---Jesus became human. the Holy Spirit worked with God and somehow Jesus Himself was made into an embryo and planted in her womb. The complexity of such a thing is amazing, but it is what the bible says---JESUS BECAME HUMAN. There was not one Jesus in heaven and God the Holy Spirit and Mary made another one!

I don't understand what you are saying.

My reference was to the fact that the 'Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary' and how Mary may have become impregnated. It seems to me what you are saying is that Mary's DNA had no part in the process. I'm a little lost.

Can you explain more how this relates to what you said above. Maybe it's because I just woke up and am not understanding.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Mormons always seem to need explanations, rather than accept on faith the things of God. JS was not comfortable with the mysteries of God, which is why they follow their leader, fully accepting his limited "knowledge" which openly contradicts what God's Word says in the bible.

FAITH. I think that is key.

When one thinks that God is glorified man, like themselves, than they think God makes mistakes and has poor judgment. Faith is the element that separates our two religions.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Why mess with a painful birth?

I like ArmenianJohn's answers to you questions. However, I will comment on this one. You are making assumptions again. Human childbirth is painful. However, we have no information such pain existed. Since it was a supernatural conception, it just as easily could have been a painless childbirth. We just don't know.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I don't understand what you are saying.

My reference was to the fact that the 'Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary' and how Mary may have become impregnated. It seems to me what you are saying is that Mary's DNA had no part in the process. I'm a little lost.

Can you explain more how this relates to what you said above. Maybe it's because I just woke up and am not understanding.

She can explain herself, but my take on this is it seems like you are agreeing with Peter1000 that Mary's egg (and DNA) was somehow used in this process. We just don't have that information. Somehow, supernaturally, Jesus, fully God, appeared in Mary's womb as an embryo and grew into a human baby/child/man. If Mary's egg (with her DNA) was used, then that would be a different human form of Jesus.

I apologize if my understanding of what you were saying is incorrect. But that's the impression I got from your posts.

 

[ToBeLoved]

She can explain herself, but my take on this is it seems like you are agreeing with Peter1000 that Mary's egg (and DNA) was somehow used in this process. We just don't have that information. Somehow, supernaturally, Jesus, fully God, appeared in Mary's womb as an embryo and grew into a human baby/child/man. If Mary's egg (with her DNA) was used, then that would be a different human form of Jesus.

I apologize if my understanding of what you were saying is incorrect. But that's the impression I got from your posts.

He asked for my theory on how Mary MAY have become impregnated without a physical intercourse with the Father as Mormons believe.

What I said was that what the Bible says is that "the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary". My statement was that this COULD HAVE BEEN as simple as placing a sperm or fertilized egg in her body and it happening somewhat naturally.

So, if you want to read into that that I am saying that is what happened, you may do that. What I said is in contrast to any physical contact with Mary that is sexual and intercourse related.

I really hope this clarifies what I was saying. I did not say this is what happened.

 

[mmksparbud]

I don't understand what you are saying.

My reference was to the fact that the 'Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary' and how Mary may have become impregnated. It seems to me what you are saying is that Mary's DNA had no part in the process. I'm a little lost.

Can you explain more how this relates to what you said above. Maybe it's because I just woke up and am not understanding.

I am saying that Jesus was not made by God impregnating Mary---Jesus became human---just as the bible says. The Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary doesn't mean that God had sex with Mary!! Jesus was never created in the first place, He always was----and God did not then make another Jesus by having sex with her. Jesus was made into what could be put into Mary and have Him grow in her, becoming mixed with her DNA, she gave Him her humanity, yet He retained His divinity. The Mormon view that God impregnated Mary "in the normal manner" would mean there was another Jesus made while the original Jesus was still in heaven. There was no new Jesus, it was Jesus Himself, from everlasting, who was made human by the power of God through the Holy Ghost--how----who knows--but Jesus became human, He was not made from scratch!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am saying that Jesus was not made by God impregnating Mary---Jesus became human---just as the bible says. The Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary doesn't mean that God had sex with Mary!! Jesus was never created in the first place, He always was----and God did not then make another Jesus by having sex with her. Jesus was made into what could be put into Mary and have Him grow in her, becoming mixed with her DNA, she gave Him her humanity, yet He retained His divinity. The Mormon view that God impregnated Mary "in the normal manner" would mean there was another Jesus made while the original Jesus was still in heaven. There was no new Jesus, it was Jesus Himself, from everlasting, who was made human by the power of God through the Holy Ghost--how----who knows--but Jesus became human, He was not made from scratch!

I didn't say that, please see post 1191 which is my clarifying what I said.

I in NO WAY indicated ever any sexual intercourse in Mary giving birth to Jesus.

 

[Peter1000]

Of course Kinderhook is considered a "non-event" to you. (Would you think the same if JS had fully "translated" them and they unquestionably supported -- the Trinity? Yes.) It is a non-event to Christians as well, but for very, very different reasons than what Mormons like to believe.

This is the fundamental problem with Christians and Mormons. We ARE searching for the truth within mormonism, but cannot support it the way you have do and obey God at the same time. We insist upon biblical standards God Himself put in place: not go be feelings, other books, what men happen to claim, or suggesting that God is counter-productive to what He has to say to us cannot be preserved by His power! Because of mere men? LOL!! The bible plainly shows humans are never more powerful than God! Mormons don't want us to believe that, but we steadfastly refuse to accept any other path. (Where's Christianity's infamous "apostasy" in that?) Mormons want us to accept what they do, ONE man's biblically unsupportable opinions of what God says. God says trust HIM, not man--so that's what we do. Obey God. Not man. If something doesn't meet biblical testing, it FAILS. End of subject. Any scriptural truth should be able to be found within the bible. God doesn't say one thing, then the entire opposite somewhere else. IF its found anywhere else, and disagrees with God's Word? It's not scriptural. That's why the Apocrypha/Pseudographica remains separate in its own unique category as questionable, even by those who kept it.

The kinderhook plates was a non-event because JS took a very small amount of time and translated one symbol and then the plates were lost. His secretary mentions that he heard or was told a miniscule amount of information about it and he records it. End of story.

Maybe JS knew they were not true and so he spent no more time on them, who knows. He did not spend much time at all on them. Non-event. Plates scattered and lost. Non-event. What different reason do you think give this non-event?

 

[Peter1000]

I am saying that Jesus was not made by God impregnating Mary---Jesus became human---just as the bible says. The Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary doesn't mean that God had sex with Mary!! Jesus was never created in the first place, He always was----and God did not then make another Jesus by having sex with her. Jesus was made into what could be put into Mary and have Him grow in her, becoming mixed with her DNA, she gave Him her humanity, yet He retained His divinity. The Mormon view that God impregnated Mary "in the normal manner" would mean there was another Jesus made while the original Jesus was still in heaven. There was no new Jesus, it was Jesus Himself, from everlasting, who was made human by the power of God through the Holy Ghost--how----who knows--but Jesus became human, He was not made from scratch!

Jesus's spirit was not created, it always has lived. But Jesus's flesh and bone body had to be made. It was made with the natural event of sperm into egg, pregnancy, and natural birth. So The Highest overshadowed Mary and in a supernatural way deposited sperm into her egg and she had a natural pregnancy and birth.

So the immortal spirit was incarnated into the flesh and bone body created by Mary and they became Jesus of Nazareth.

When Jesus died, this same spirit left his body and went to preach unto the spirits in prison for 3 days. Then after 3 days, his spirit returned to his body and he was resurrected. Now the body and the spirit will never again be separated, because he is an exalted, glorified Man. That is why I say, Jesus has a perfect, resurrected, immortal, exalted body of flesh and bone and spirit.

 

[mmksparbud]

Jesus's spirit was not created, it always has lived. But Jesus's flesh and bone body had to be made. It was made with the natural event of sperm into egg, pregnancy, and natural birth. So The Highest overshadowed Mary and in a supernatural way deposited sperm into her egg and she had a natural pregnancy and birth.

So the immortal spirit was incarnated into the flesh and bone body created by Mary and they became Jesus of Nazareth.

When Jesus died, this same spirit left his body and went to preach unto the spirits in prison for 3 days. Then after 3 days, his spirit returned to his body and he was resurrected. Now the body and the spirit will never again be separated, because he is an exalted, glorified Man. That is why I say, Jesus has a perfect, resurrected, immortal, exalted body of flesh and bone and spirit.

44

No===-Jesus Himself became human. There is only one Jesus---that Divine Jesus became human but retained His divinity. There was no sperm involved! You don't even know if God has any!! That is JS made up story. God and the Holy Spirit transformed Jesus Christ Himself and implanted Him into her womb---Jesus became a man--Jesus was not ever created, there was no need for sperm, the One and Only Son of God was transformed and implanted into Mary---Jesus became a man. He got His humanity from Mary, His divinity was His own from the beginning, He was never sperm---No other Jesus was made--it was the same Jesus transformed.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The kinderhook plates was a non-event because JS took a very small amount of time and translated one symbol and then the plates were lost. His secretary mentions that he heard or was told a miniscule amount of information about it and he records it. End of story.

Maybe JS knew they were not true and so he spent no more time on them, who knows. He did not spend much time at all on them. Non-event. Plates scattered and lost. Non-event. What different reason do you think give this non-event?

That's a lot of speculation. Seems your making excuses for your prophet.

 

[Peter1000]

That's a lot of speculation. Seems your making excuses for your prophet.

There's not much of a defense, because it's a non-event. Others would like to make it a big event, but there is no evidence of a big event. The truth is, JS was given 6 or so plates, he took a few minutes to see if by his knowledge he could find any information. He did find 1 figure that he thought meant something. He told his secretary about it and it was recorded, then things got hot in Nauvoo and the plates were eventually lost except for 1 and that was proven to be fraudulent. So what does that say about JS. Just what I said. He did not claim that these plates were real and from God. He did not translate them and create another book of scripture. He recognized 1 figure and that is all, no other anouncements except what his secretary wrote.

It is a non-event. It did not go anywhere.

 

[Peter1000]

44

No===-Jesus Himself became human. There is only one Jesus---that Divine Jesus became human but retained His divinity. There was no sperm involved! You don't even know if God has any!! That is JS made up story. God and the Holy Spirit transformed Jesus Christ Himself and implanted Him into her womb---Jesus became a man--Jesus was not ever created, there was no need for sperm, the One and Only Son of God was transformed and implanted into Mary---Jesus became a man. He got His humanity from Mary, His divinity was His own from the beginning, He was never sperm---No other Jesus was made--it was the same Jesus transformed.

Who was Jesus Himself before he became human?

What form was Jesus before the incarnation?

Do you know what incarnation implies?

 

[Peter1000]

I like ArmenianJohn's answers to you questions. However, I will comment on this one. You are making assumptions again. Human childbirth is painful. However, we have no information such pain existed. Since it was a supernatural conception, it just as easily could have been a painless childbirth. We just don't know.

Since it is really such a small matter, I will agree with you.