LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Peter1000]

I know that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. So it was God, now what form that took, I don't need to know. Unlike the Mormons, I do not read into scripture what I do not know.

As far as your POV, you believe some far out things.

Well, I did ask a wacky, far-out question, like how did Mary get impregnated? This is off point so don't answer it, but to me it is at the least an interesting question.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, I did ask a wacky, far-out question, like how did Mary get impregnated? This is off point so don't answer it, but to me it is at the least an interesting question.

To me if God wanted us to know He would have told us. I think that a sperm was just supernaturally deposited in her body and naturally fertilized with her egg. But that is IMHO.

 

[tickingclocker]

If it is such an embarrassment to the LDS and we avoid mentioning its existence today, why would this article mention it to you, today?

Why would I mention it as a possible answer to the plates mystery, if it is such an embarrassment Today?

JS took his Egyptian grammar book and found at least this 1 figure in his book and that figure, to JS, represented that the person was a descendant of Pharoah, and that he was given his position from the Ruler of heaven and earth. JS then on his own, speculated correctly, if a person is a descendant of Pharoah, he is automatically also a descendant of Ham, who started the Pharoah line.

This is the portion that JS translated, by his own knowledge and learning, whether it be correct or not. JS never said that he translated this figure by the power of God, it was by his own understanding.

It would be a lot different if JS had said he translated all of the plates by the gift and power of God, and came up with a new book of scripture, only to find that the plates were a hoax, then it would be embarrassing. That is not what happened.

1. It wasn't an LDS article that mentioned it, but MormonThink.com in its article about the Kinderhook plates. I'd never heard of this "reformed Egyptian Grammer text" before, not in a single discussion with Mormons or ex-Mormons. Not info Mormons are eager to share apparently. Nobody ever used it to defend JS's translation work. Why? According to linguistic scientists, this 'grammar book" of JS's is a load of goo.
2. "JS... took.... his Egyptian grammer book"? Very ambiguous phrasing. Did you mean "used" his book?
3. He claimed to have found a "similar" figure in the reformed Egyptian grammar book he wrote. One lone "character" could not have told him all that. Come on. Especially considering how he knew this would be up for grabs. JS claimed to have not written down anything he saw with his peepstone in his hat. Instead, he said he dictated the BoM "plates" to secretaries, who wrote down the English "translation". Nobody is going to believe he got all that info from one single character. Even if on the remote chance he did, it was still a lie because the plates were faked and so was his "reformed
Egyptian grammar" book. Lies built upon lies.
4. Line of Ham. That's what your church teaches, anyway. Now it must because of the necessity for supporting the "black skin" issue. Which I refuse to get into, it being nothing more than a morass of mindless flotsam.
5. By his own understanding? So that excuses his explanation... to you? Believe that if you wish to. Doesn't address he said, "they were the history of the person they were found with" either. If he announced such a thing from "his own [false] understanding", why should anyone believe him about anything else?
6. No, it didn't happen. JS had more pressing matters to attend to at the time. He'd also lost interest in "translation" work, having established a regular following, which is what he intended all along. He even set aside working on revising the bible "like God ordered him to". BIG trouble was brewing in Nauvoo, IL by this time. Within little more than a year of the Kinderhook plates discovery (4/1843), JS was dead (6/1844). It's not like copies of the plates languished for years in some dusty old box where he'd tucked them into his attic for when he "got around to it". We will never know if he had intentions of "translating" them in the future he failed to get.

 

[fatboys]

1. It wasn't an LDS article that mentioned it, but MormonThink.com in its article about the Kinderhook plates. I'd never heard of this "reformed Egyptian Grammer text" before, not in a single discussion with Mormons or ex-Mormons. Not info Mormons are eager to share apparently. Nobody ever used it to defend JS's translation work. Why? According to linguistic scientists, this 'grammar book" of JS's is a load of goo.
2. "JS... took.... his Egyptian grammer book"? Very ambiguous phrasing. Did you mean "used" his book?
3. He claimed to have found a "similar" figure in the reformed Egyptian grammar book he wrote. One lone "character" could not have told him all that. Come on. Especially considering how he knew this would be up for grabs. JS claimed to have not written down anything he saw with his peepstone in his hat. Instead, he said he dictated the BoM "plates" to secretaries, who wrote down the English "translation". Nobody is going to believe he got all that info from one single character. Even if on the remote chance he did, it was still a lie because the plates were faked and so was his "reformed
Egyptian grammar" book. Lies built upon lies.
4. Line of Ham. That's what your church teaches, anyway. Now it must because of the necessity for supporting the "black skin" issue. Which I refuse to get into, it being nothing more than a morass of mindless flotsam.
5. By his own understanding? So that excuses his explanation... to you? Believe that if you wish to. Doesn't address he said, "they were the history of the person they were found with" either. If he announced such a thing from "his own [false] understanding", why should anyone believe him about anything else?
6. No, it didn't happen. JS had more pressing matters to attend to at the time. He'd also lost interest in "translation" work, having established a regular following, which is what he intended all along. He even set aside working on revising the bible "like God ordered him to". BIG trouble was brewing in Nauvoo, IL by this time. Within little more than a year of the Kinderhook plates discovery (4/1843), JS was dead (6/1844). It's not like copies of the plates languished for years in some dusty old box where he'd tucked them into his attic for when he "got around to it". We will never know if he had intentions of "translating" them in the future he failed to get.

In the world of apologetics it is very common knowledge of he Egyptian grammar book. I'm surprised you have never heard of it.

 

[tickingclocker]

We all know how we came to know God. First by listening to others testimonies as we up. We read the bible and other articles, and along the way we prayed to God directly, and he sent His spirit to witness that it is true. We came to know God.

Our path is the same, it is the only path that a person can take to know God. It is only through fasting and prayer and the visitation of the HS that you can know God. But you probably would take a lot longer to get to prayer, if you did on your own, if you did not have people telling you these things and the scriptures and other good books and articles that you read.

You really do not need to respond because I know you know God, however that happened.

Lots of people do the exact same things, and they never truly know God. Why? It's not our actions that bring us to God, but His providence alone. I don't believe that we "do" all this stuff, then God "acts". God acts by drawing US to HIM. Not the other way round. It's only through the grace of God that anyone can truly know "Him". Not through "fasting, articles, prayer, testimonies, sermons, etc., etc.." If that's the case how did Adam know there was a God? Because God revealed Himself to Adam. So its not just "Calvinism". He uses the method of the Gospel to draw us to salvation.

So we did not take "the same path", after all. Did we? I see God's hand in my life. There's no mistaking it for anything I did.

No man can come to Me, except the Father, who hath sent Me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. (John 6:44)

"And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thes 2:14).

 

[tickingclocker]

In the world of apologetics it is very common knowledge of he Egyptian grammar book. I'm surprised you have never heard of it.

I keep telling you Mormons that I have been out of mormonism for a very long time, and stopped caring about its twists and turns in early youth, even while being forced to attend. God wasn't who they said He was. There was no need to pay attention after realizing that. It's not like I've been searching mormonism or websites that reject mormonism as true in the meantime. (Unlike with some who insist is the truth because they wish to believe it about me).

 

[fatboys]

I keep telling you Mormons that I have been out of mormonism for a very long time, and stopped caring about its twists and turns in early youth, even while being forced to attend. God wasn't who they said He was. There was no need to pay attention after realizing that. It's not like I've been searching mormonism or websites that reject mormonism as true in the meantime. (Unlike with some who insist is the truth because they wish to believe it about me).

Well you seemed to have a little more knowledge than many here.

 

[tickingclocker]

Well you seemed to have a little more knowledge than many here.

I talk to people and people talk to me. I learned a lot from family and friends, both Mormons and ex-Mormons, over the years. What mormonism is, and what it is not. Common sense is readily available to anyone who values it.

 

[Ironhold]

I keep telling you Mormons that I have been out of mormonism for a very long time, and stopped caring about its twists and turns in early youth, even while being forced to attend. God wasn't who they said He was. There was no need to pay attention after realizing that. It's not like I've been searching mormonism or websites that reject mormonism as true in the meantime. (Unlike with some who insist is the truth because they wish to believe it about me).

If you stopped caring, then why are you here?

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you stopped caring, then why are you here?

You can't question why he is here, nor can you ask/tell him to leave. It's against the rules. He has the right to post here no matter what his reasons are.

 

[Ironhold]

You can't question why he is here, nor can you ask/tell him to leave. It's against the rules. He has the right to post here no matter what his reasons are.

I was trying to get him to spell out what he's looking to accomplish.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I was trying to get him to spell out what he's looking to accomplish.

Why do you think anyone is looking to accomplish anything?

 

[Peter1000]

To me if God wanted us to know He would have told us. I think that a sperm was just supernaturally deposited in her body and naturally fertilized with her egg. But that is IMHO.

Your humble opinion is not far off IMHO. That's why I think the Highest (God) was overshadowing her, was to supernaturally deposit sperm into her body, so that the egg could be naturally fertilized. Thank you for that.

 

[Peter1000]

1. It wasn't an LDS article that mentioned it, but MormonThink.com in its article about the Kinderhook plates. I'd never heard of this "reformed Egyptian Grammer text" before, not in a single discussion with Mormons or ex-Mormons. Not info Mormons are eager to share apparently. Nobody ever used it to defend JS's translation work. Why? According to linguistic scientists, this 'grammar book" of JS's is a load of goo.
2. "JS... took.... his Egyptian grammer book"? Very ambiguous phrasing. Did you mean "used" his book?
3. He claimed to have found a "similar" figure in the reformed Egyptian grammar book he wrote. One lone "character" could not have told him all that. Come on. Especially considering how he knew this would be up for grabs. JS claimed to have not written down anything he saw with his peepstone in his hat. Instead, he said he dictated the BoM "plates" to secretaries, who wrote down the English "translation". Nobody is going to believe he got all that info from one single character. Even if on the remote chance he did, it was still a lie because the plates were faked and so was his "reformed
Egyptian grammar" book. Lies built upon lies.
4. Line of Ham. That's what your church teaches, anyway. Now it must because of the necessity for supporting the "black skin" issue. Which I refuse to get into, it being nothing more than a morass of mindless flotsam.
5. By his own understanding? So that excuses his explanation... to you? Believe that if you wish to. Doesn't address he said, "they were the history of the person they were found with" either. If he announced such a thing from "his own [false] understanding", why should anyone believe him about anything else?
6. No, it didn't happen. JS had more pressing matters to attend to at the time. He'd also lost interest in "translation" work, having established a regular following, which is what he intended all along. He even set aside working on revising the bible "like God ordered him to". BIG trouble was brewing in Nauvoo, IL by this time. Within little more than a year of the Kinderhook plates discovery (4/1843), JS was dead (6/1844). It's not like copies of the plates languished for years in some dusty old box where he'd tucked them into his attic for when he "got around to it". We will never know if he had intentions of "translating" them in the future he failed to get.

The article that I gave you to read, used that grammar book as the explanation for what JS did of his own personal knowledge, rather than by the gift and power of God.

The idea that one figure could tell JS that he came from the loins of a Pharoah and that God is who put him in his position is not a far stretch. You say "nobody believes he got 2 pieces of information from 1 figure". Well, I happen to believe it. So there is 1 person, I suspect there are millions of others that believe also.

I gave you a plausible explanation, you stuffed it down my throat, so I suspect you are not looking for the truth, but you are looking to just find ways to make JS look bad. What do we call that? I won't say it.

You say: According to linguistic scientists, this 'grammar book" of JS's is a load of goo.

Give me 1 linquistic scientist that called this grammar book a load of goo.

You are right though, by this time in his life, he had mobs hounding him from Missouri and from Illinois and did not have the time to give to the plates, so any fraudulant happening did not happen, so why do you give it any time at all. Read your bible and come closer to Jesus, rather than spend your time exploring ways to find JS fraudulent.

 

[Peter1000]

You can't question why he is here, nor can you ask/tell him to leave. It's against the rules. He has the right to post here no matter what his reasons are.

He is a she.

 

[Peter1000]

Lots of people do the exact same things, and they never truly know God. Why? It's not our actions that bring us to God, but His providence alone. I don't believe that we "do" all this stuff, then God "acts". God acts by drawing US to HIM. Not the other way round. It's only through the grace of God that anyone can truly know "Him". Not through "fasting, articles, prayer, testimonies, sermons, etc., etc.." If that's the case how did Adam know there was a God? Because God revealed Himself to Adam. So its not just "Calvinism". He uses the method of the Gospel to draw us to salvation.

So we did not take "the same path", after all. Did we? I see God's hand in my life. There's no mistaking it for anything I did.

No man can come to Me, except the Father, who hath sent Me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. (John 6:44)

"And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thes 2:14).

So did God reveal Himself to you, the way He did to Adam?

 

[tickingclocker]

"Peter1000, post: 69859728, member: 382212"]The article that I gave you to read, used that grammar book as the explanation for what JS did of his own personal knowledge, rather than by the gift and power of God.

The idea that one figure could tell JS that he came from the loins of a Pharoah and that God is who put him in his position is not a far stretch. You say "nobody believes he got 2 pieces of information from 1 figure". Well, I happen to believe it. So there is 1 person, I suspect there are millions of others that believe also.

I gave you a plausible explanation, you stuffed it down my throat, so I suspect you are not looking for the truth, but you are looking to just find ways to make JS look bad. What do we call that? I won't say it.

You say: According to linguistic scientists, this 'grammar book" of JS's is a load of goo.

Give me 1 linquistic scientist that called this grammar book a load of goo.

You are right though, by this time in his life, he had mobs hounding him from Missouri and from Illinois and did not have the time to give to the plates, so any fraudulant happening did not happen, so why do you give it any time at all. Read your bible and come closer to Jesus, rather than spend your time exploring ways to find JS fraudulent.


Easy for you to believe, yeah. Not so much for me. I'm not "steeped in mormonism". To me its quite a stretch. Millions of others believe we didn't put a man on the moon either... Says nothing.

You can suspect anything you like in order to keep your beliefs close to your heart. I rejected your highly far-fetched analysis and it gave you an emotional reaction. People reject Jesus Christ all the time, accusing Christians of "stuffing religion down their throats", even when it was them who first inquired! Do I become offended? No. They are not rejecting me, but the Savior. I do feel sad for them, but it doesn't make me angry like it seems you are about my rejection of your analysis. Did you think I would just accept your highly slanted viewpoint and that would be that? Really?

I don't need to find ways to "make JS look bad", Peter. He did that all on his very own, long, long ago. I'm not the one who claimed faked plates were about a descendant of an unnamed Pharaoh. I'm not the one who was exposed as a fraud by claiming an old book about burial rites was "Abraham's words". I'm not the one who made up a religion as it went along to keep people interested enough to keep supporting me because I thought honest physical labor was beneath me. I'm not the one who's family refused to belong to a church their own father and husband started.

Let me ask you a more key question, Peter, to prove it to yourself. WHAT secular or even religious scientists use or have ever used JS's "Reformed Egyptian Grammar" book in their linguistic or archeological research, barring the extremely rare one pr two within the LDS, naturally. I take it it's like the JST. Not even the LDS reveres it enough to make it their standard!!

FYI. I never really payed attention to what these "kinderhook plates" were until a MORMON told me to not bother looking them up because the whole thing was a hoax. When a MORMON warns me away from something? There's something there they don't want known. I haven't taken a single moment away from seeking my Savior by investigating the plates. Don't worry about that. I take the Holy Spirit with me wherever I go. Or, better yet, HE takes ME wherever HE goes! As I pray every day. It seems you quite often end up emotionally defensive when you speak with me. Why is that? I'm sorry you don't like what I have to say, but if I refuse to lie to myself, don't expect I'm going to treat you with any lesser degree of respect.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Your humble opinion is not far off IMHO. That's why I think the Highest (God) was overshadowing her, was to supernaturally deposit sperm into her body, so that the egg could be naturally fertilized. Thank you for that.

God did not need a sperm or an egg to create Adam and Eve. Eve was created from Adam's rib, not fluid from his genitals.

While Mary, being a human female, could be assumed to have had a human egg in her, but God did not need to "deposit" a sperm to create Jesus' human body. He did not even need Mary's egg and we have no information that He used such an egg. God is the Creator and spoke the world into existance, He doesn't need help. But that flies in the face of lds theology about not creating something from nothing and, therefore, you have to go with the incorrect sperm/egg theory.

 

[tickingclocker]

If you stopped caring, then why are you here?

Because I buried a lot from when I was young. Someone told me its best to face your fears and hurts instead of ignoring them, allowing them to control you. This is a more honest way to live, and that's what I strive for each day.

So here I am. I don't mind anyone asking me why I'm here. It's an opportunity to tell people what happens when parents tell their children to shut up, keep quiet, don't ask those kind of questions, stop using your brain in other words when it comes to mormonism. I DID NOT ever read a single piece of literature, or talk with a single person who was against mormonism while growing up. I left because the Spirit of God showed me mormonism was a false system. Nobody can ever guilt me over that! My testimony reveals God's hand in my life. Mormons don't generally react favorably to my testimony. They "have to" believe it was something or someone who "got to me" instead. Well, not in my case! It was the LORD who "got" me, and I thank Him for it each and every day!

 

[Peter1000]

"Peter1000, post: 69859728, member: 382212"]The article that I gave you to read, used that grammar book as the explanation for what JS did of his own personal knowledge, rather than by the gift and power of God.

The idea that one figure could tell JS that he came from the loins of a Pharoah and that God is who put him in his position is not a far stretch. You say "nobody believes he got 2 pieces of information from 1 figure". Well, I happen to believe it. So there is 1 person, I suspect there are millions of others that believe also.

I gave you a plausible explanation, you stuffed it down my throat, so I suspect you are not looking for the truth, but you are looking to just find ways to make JS look bad. What do we call that? I won't say it.

You say: According to linguistic scientists, this 'grammar book" of JS's is a load of goo.

Give me 1 linquistic scientist that called this grammar book a load of goo.

You are right though, by this time in his life, he had mobs hounding him from Missouri and from Illinois and did not have the time to give to the plates, so any fraudulant happening did not happen, so why do you give it any time at all. Read your bible and come closer to Jesus, rather than spend your time exploring ways to find JS fraudulent.


Easy for you to believe, yeah. Not so much for me. I'm not "steeped in mormonism". To me its quite a stretch. Millions of others believe we didn't put a man on the moon either... Says nothing.

You can suspect anything you like in order to keep your beliefs close to your heart. I rejected your highly far-fetched analysis and it gave you an emotional reaction. People reject Jesus Christ all the time, accusing Christians of "stuffing religion down their throats", even when it was them who first inquired! Do I become offended? No. They are not rejecting me, but the Savior. I do feel sad for them, but it doesn't make me angry like it seems you are about my rejection of your analysis. Did you think I would just accept your highly slanted viewpoint and that would be that? Really?

I don't need to find ways to "make JS look bad", Peter. He did that all on his very own, long, long ago. I'm not the one who claimed faked plates were about a descendant of an unnamed Pharaoh. I'm not the one who was exposed as a fraud by claiming an old book about burial rites was "Abraham's words". I'm not the one who made up a religion as it went along to keep people interested enough to keep supporting me because I thought honest physical labor was beneath me. I'm not the one who's family refused to belong to a church their own father and husband started.

Let me ask you a more key question, Peter, to prove it to yourself. WHAT secular or even religious scientists use or have ever used JS's "Reformed Egyptian Grammar" book in their linguistic or archeological research, barring the extremely rare one pr two within the LDS, naturally. I take it it's like the JST. Not even the LDS reveres it enough to make it their standard!!

FYI. I never really payed attention to what these "kinderhook plates" were until a MORMON told me to not bother looking them up because the whole thing was a hoax. When a MORMON warns me away from something? There's something there they don't want known. I haven't taken a single moment away from seeking my Savior by investigating the plates. Don't worry about that. I take the Holy Spirit with me wherever I go. Or, better yet, HE takes ME wherever HE goes! As I pray every day. It seems you quite often end up emotionally defensive when you speak with me. Why is that? I'm sorry you don't like what I have to say, but if I refuse to lie to myself, don't expect I'm going to treat you with any lesser degree of respect.

I didn't mind that you rejected the articles analysis, I expected it, but it is the way you rejected the information. It lead me to think that you really were not searching for the truth, but you were using the plates non-event for something else.

The Kinderhook plates is a non-event.