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LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie
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tickingclocker
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The power of God is very different than the psychological persuasions of men, Peter. God has nothing to hide while enabling men to trust His Word. God cannot lie. You can trust Him!
Is this what you are comparing men "seeing" plates through imagination with? I, too, can see myself owning the neighbor's gorgeous new Land Rover, having the highway all to myself (or is it everyone is behaving?), wind rustling through my hair, stereo blasting my favorite Golden Oldies, hot sun on my arm, the ice in a peach iced tea sparkling in the dappled light..... Ahhh.... Thank you, Lord, for my car.
Oh, there goes a Rover just like mine! Look! Same color, too. Wonder how much he paid for his.....? Did it happen? I was driving it. In my mind. When you really want something, you can literally taste it. Everybody knows that.
They didn't see anything with their spiritual eyes. They all "agreed" to claim they saw them through spiritual eyes, knowing there were no plates to begin with. It was easier, knowing if people stuck around they would fall for anything. I place no faith in human imagination being deemed as divine just because a bunch of men say so. Especially when they have something to gain from it. Can't you tell?
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tickingclocker
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Follow-up: I have read it now. And? Doesn't address the fact that loyal, devout Mormon Wm. Clayton never retracted what JS said and did regarding the Kinderhook plates as, “I have translated a portion of them, and they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth…”
Not translated "one character" that looked similar to one in his worthless "Revised Egyptian grammar book" that embarrasses the LDS to no end so they avoid mentioning its existence today. Many characters were spread across the plates. One character among hundreds would not be considered a "portion", especially when JS goes into great detail re: the origin of the imaginary "person" who either wrote who he was or had someone write it for him. That was the deciding, and therefore revealing "portion". He still claimed to have "translated' something that was a hoax, whether one character or the "introductory" paragraph. To me they are nothing more than another nail in JS's "translation" confidence game board. Moving on....
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mmksparbud
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No, the servants eyes were opened and they actually physically saw what was the realm of God. JS and them said they did not see them physically, but with their spiritual eyes.
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Peter1000
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I'm not sure this answers: Did you come to a conclusion that God is not everything?
We have both gone through our trials. I came out of my trial with God in tact, He is everything, and will always be everything.
You seem to have lost that concept. I just want to know if you really had lost that concept, and how did it happen. You answered: How could God not protect His Word of His church, if He is God? Would you explain how this relates to my question. i'm sure in your mind it does, by please explain to me. Thanks.
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tickingclocker
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You seem to have lost something in "translating" what I said. Do I sound like I have no faith in God?
What I stated was the confusion between what the bible, and therefore God, claims about Himself vs. what mormonism teaches. Either God remains GOD, or he doesn't. He remains all powerful or he doesn't. It all comes down to who are you going to believe? God? Or JS?
I chose God. You chose JS. Ummm.... okay?
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tickingclocker
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See post #1144 for that answer. I'm not in the habit of seeing any need to repeat myself.
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Peter1000
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You chose God because Jesus, Peter and Paul and others taught you about who God is. You also read many other books and commentaries about what people say about God and you listen to your pastor and reconfirm all the rest.
You have also prayed about it and the HS also witnessed to you that God exists and is real and loves you etc..\
I have done the exact same thing. I too have been taught about God by Jesus, Peter, Paul and others in the bible. I have read other good books about God and also read commentaries and articles. I have also read the works of JS and his experience with God.
So our choice isn't just between God or JS. It is between God and all the others. We have both chose the same direction, except I include the words of JS with the others.
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tickingclocker
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There's a huge gap between 1 Kings and what JS's friends claimed. What God allowed the men in 1 Kings to see actually happened precisely as God foretold them it would. Keyword: foretold. There was no "I saw it, but it didn't happen" with God. John witnesses the things that will happen in the End Times in Revelation. They WILL happen, precisely as he wrote them. John didn't see them in his "mind's eye" or even with his "spiritual eye". He saw all through God's all-knowing eyes "as if" everything had already happened. It has to God, because God's plans are perfect and true.
Whenever God gives a vision of the future there is something key that follows the vision. The actual happening. JS's friends never mentioned a thing about what should 'happen' after they "saw" these plates in their minds. It's like an, "Umm....okay?" kind of ending. Therefore its no divine vision, but mass wishful thinking (or men agreeing to all say the same thing for a profit).
You have to know the bible very intimately in order to fool all the people all the time. They couldn't pull that off because there is always something spiritually critical they forget. Or that they are divinely blinded to.
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You changed the subject then. We were talking about how the witnesses saw what they saw with 'spiritual eyes' and how that changes things.
I think your Kings conversation was with someone else.
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tickingclocker
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What do you know of what I have read? I'm not the one who automatically believes what men write and speak about God. Many of them may be inspired by the Holy Spirit to write and speak in their commentaries or sermons, but I don't take them as being "God". God is God. No one else.
Yes, it IS between believing GOD and accepting what men say "about" God. No, we did not choose the "same direction". Far from it! God never says one word about the things mormonism teaches. JS is the only one who does. In fact, God says precisely the opposite of JS. Which is why I reject JS's version "of" God as being from God. God has no reason to contradict Himself. Man can... think... he can contradict who God says He is. Doesn't make men right and God wrong.
The Lord taught me of who He is through the Holy Spirit. Men are never responsible for what God can easily do.
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Peter1000
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If it is such an embarrassment to the LDS and we avoid mentioning its existence today, why would this article mention it to you, today?
Why would I mention it as a possible answer to the plates mystery, if it is such an embarrassment Today?
JS took his Egyptian grammar book and found at least this 1 figure in his book and that figure, to JS, represented that the person was a descendant of Pharoah, and that he was given his position from the Ruler of heaven and earth. JS then on his own, speculated correctly, if a person is a descendant of Pharoah, he is automatically also a descendant of Ham, who started the Pharoah line.
This is the portion that JS translated, by his own knowledge and learning, whether it be correct or not. JS never said that he translated this figure by the power of God, it was by his own understanding.
It would be a lot different if JS had said he translated all of the plates by the gift and power of God, and came up with a new book of scripture, only to find that the plates were a hoax, then it would be embarrassing. That is not what happened.
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Peter1000
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We all know how we came to know God. First by listening to others testimonies as we up. We read the bible and other articles, and along the way we prayed to God directly, and he sent His spirit to witness that it is true. We came to know God.
Our path is the same, it is the only path that a person can take to know God. It is only through fasting and prayer and the visitation of the HS that you can know God. But you probably would take a lot longer to get to prayer, if you did on your own, if you did not have people telling you these things and the scriptures and other good books and articles that you read.
You really do not need to respond because I know you know God, however that happened.
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