Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

[Bob S]

Come on friend, Jesus differentiated His commandments with the Father's commandments. I asked:
1. Jesus kept the Father's commandments and asked us to keep His commandments. The Father's commandments were Torah, what are Jesus commandments?

2. Why did Jesus differentiate between the two if as you have indicated we are under the same laws as was Jesus?

There has to be a difference or Jesus was just beating His gums. Give me an answer or tell me you really do not know. They have to be different or Jesus would not have even mentioned the fact.

 

[1John2:4]

Pardon me for not answering your post to me. I just saw it.

A doctrine with no scriptural basis? I need more information to give you an answer. Thank you for clearing up your use of Shabbat. Did you not read the cut and paste I gleaned from a Jewish website? If Jews recognize that Sabbath is a ritual why would I deem it different. There are nine laws dealing with morality, how we treat God and our fellow man. One law that commemorates events. Both were to the Israelites Holy laws and I do not see the reason you would make it an issue.


Much is not recorded about the issues of Sabbath observance. First God told the Israelites to stay in their tents and rest on the Sabbath. Then for some unknown reason they were out and about, but not too far. Then they circumcised on Sabbath and marched around Jerico on Sabbath and then guards were given respite to guard David on the Sabbath. Levites were granted complete hiatus. You will have to admit that there was something different about Sabbaths, feasts and new moon celebrations. They could be broken, but moral laws dealing with fellow men were never allowed to be broken or changed.

About your doctrine, I don't understand were you gleaned your definition of moral and ritual laws from, I was hoping you could clarify.

The Jewish Religion has a lot of truth, and a lot of error, If you choose to use Jewish literature to define your doctrine that is completely your choice, however I prefer use the scriptures and the guiding of the Spirit. If I use read or listen to a teacher I do my best to test it to the word.

You are right about the staying in tents, marching around Jericho, and circumcision on the 8th day. Those are wonderful examples to ponder, maybe we really will not know the answer this side of the Kingdom. God's ways are greater than our own. I think sometimes we can be way more concerned about the do's and don'ts and really miss the whole point of the Sabbath. I know I have been guilty of this type of error, the day becomes a burden of lording over my household with a stick. Instead I try my best to focus on the Creator, engage in His Word, Worship, admire the world around us that He made for us, spend time with my family, and best of all, rest from the demands of this crazy world. When we understand that the Sabbath is a blessing, it becomes, well, a blessing. Yeshua (Jesus) said the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

I am not sure that the Levites had free reign to do whatever they wanted on the Sabbath, they had to serve God, I don't believe they went out to buy sandals. Yeshua said to do good on the Sabbath.

I do admit something is different about the Moadim, they are God's days and they are what set us apart from the world.

Thanks again for your reply

 

[1John2:4]

Come on friend, Jesus differentiated His commandments with the Father's commandments. I asked:
1. Jesus kept the Father's commandments and asked us to keep His commandments. The Father's commandments were Torah, what are Jesus commandments?

2. Why did Jesus differentiate between the two if as you have indicated we are under the same laws as was Jesus?

There has to be a difference or Jesus was just beating His gums. Give me an answer or tell me you really do not know. They have to be different or Jesus would not have even mentioned the fact.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

This verse John 15:10, this is the one you think separates the commandments? He and the Father are Ahad, and we are to abide in Him as He is in the father, I guess I don't understand how this separates the commands of Yeshua with the commands of the Father or does away with the law and the Prophets. Did Yeshua not say, in the sermon on the mount "think not I have come to abolish the law and the prophets." If anything when I read John 14 & 15, my interpretation is that The Father and Son are Ahad, and the Fathers the commandment are the Son's.

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. John 14:23

 

[Bob S]

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

This verse John 15:10, this is the one you think separates the commandments? He and the Father are Ahad, and we are to abide in Him as He is in the father, I guess I don't understand how this separates the commands of Yeshua with the commands of the Father or does away with the law and the Prophets. Did Yeshua not say, in the sermon on the mount "think not I have come to abolish the law and the prophets." If anything when I read John 14 & 15, my interpretation is that The Father and Son are Ahad, and the Fathers the commandment are the Son's.

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. John 14:23

Then you don't agree with Jesus when he indicated that the Father's commandments(Torah) are different than Jesus commandments to us? That would make Jesus not telling the truth. If as you have "interpreted" it Jesus would have said: I have kept my Father's commands and that is your duty too.

You quote Matt 5:17 and neglect to finish the thought. That is called cherry picking. The end of the thought tells us that the law would remain "until all is fulfilled". Not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law .....See the word all? All indicates that all the law would remain intact, everything in the Torah would remain until. Did Jesus fulfill the law or didn't He. Well, Paul in Gal 3 and 4 says yes He did. Paul also writes in 2Cor 3 that the 10 commandments were temporary.

 

[1John2:4]

Then you don't agree with Jesus when he indicated that the Father's commandments(Torah) are different than Jesus commandments to us? That would make Jesus not telling the truth. If as you have "interpreted" it Jesus would have said: I have kept my Father's commands and that is your duty too.

You quote Matt 5:17 and neglect to finish the thought. That is called cherry picking. The end of the thought tells us that the law would remain "until all is fulfilled". Not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law .....See the word all? All indicates that all the law would remain intact, everything in the Torah would remain until. Did Jesus fulfill the law or didn't He. Well, Paul in Gal 3 and 4 says yes He did. Paul also writes in 2Cor 3 that the 10 commandments were temporary.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Torah never changed. men just keep messing up.

 

[1John2:4]

Then you don't agree with Jesus when he indicated that the Father's commandments(Torah) are different than Jesus commandments to us? That would make Jesus not telling the truth. If as you have "interpreted" it Jesus would have said: I have kept my Father's commands and that is your duty too.

You quote Matt 5:17 and neglect to finish the thought. That is called cherry picking. The end of the thought tells us that the law would remain "until all is fulfilled". Not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law .....See the word all? All indicates that all the law would remain intact, everything in the Torah would remain until. Did Jesus fulfill the law or didn't He. Well, Paul in Gal 3 and 4 says yes He did. Paul also writes in 2Cor 3 that the 10 commandments were temporary.

Matthew 5:19 ok lets keep going then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do so will be called least in the kingdom, but whoever does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom.

 

[Bob S]

Matthew 5:17 ok lets keep going then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do so will be called least in the kingdom, but whoever does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom.

Yep, that is what He said. Jesus was talking to a bunch of Jews who were under the law(Torah) as was Jesus. Until a law changes or is abolished it remains in force. Jews had to abide by all the Torah because Jesus had not yet paid the price for their/our redemption and ushered in the New Covenant. All had not been completed when Jesus said those words. Jesus could not have said differently.

 

[1John2:4]

when

I don't agree with your interpretation of the verse. I do not see where He said they are different

 

[1John2:4]

Yep, that is what He said. Jesus was talking to a bunch of Jews who were under the law(Torah) as was Jesus. Until a law changes or is abolished it remains in force. Jews had to abide by all the Torah because Jesus had not yet paid the price for their/our redemption and ushered in the New Covenant. All had not been completed when Jesus said those words. Jesus could not have said differently.

Where in the Bible does He say that He changed the Fathers commandments? Passage and verse please.

 

[1John2:4]

Yep, that is what He said. Jesus was talking to a bunch of Jews who were under the law(Torah) as was Jesus. Until a law changes or is abolished it remains in force. Jews had to abide by all the Torah because Jesus had not yet paid the price for their/our redemption and ushered in the New Covenant. All had not been completed when Jesus said those words. Jesus could not have said differently.

Did He not also say, not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until heaven and earth pass away? Heaven and earth are still here. Not all has been fulfilled, there still remains prophecy that has not yet come to pass.

 

[bugkiller]

Duplicate Post

"Duplicate post" is great discussion.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Thank you, I would love to engage in a friendly debate with a brother in Christ.

Lets first establish that we agree that the Father and the Son are One (Ahad). Yeshua (Jesus) quotes the Father by reciting the Shema, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!" Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! Mark 12:29 This is the first and the greatest commandment.

1. I believe that the commandments are the same, Yeshua (Jesus) is the living word of God according to John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. So Yeshua is the Torah, so I believe the standard of righteousness is the same now as was then. Therefore, Yeshua's commandments are the same as The Father because they are One.

Yeshua, who is also the living Torah is the way, the truth and the light. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, Who walk in the law of the Lord! Psalm 119:1, Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth. Psalm 119:142, For the commandment is a lamp, And the law a light Reproofs of instruction are the way of life, Proverbs 6:23

He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matthew 19:17

2. The response for question two is defined by my response from question 1, I do not think God has two separate criteria to determine righteousness, righteousness is the light and in the light there is no darkness.

Question for you
1. Why do you believe the commandments of the Father are different from those of the Son?

So you must think that "My Father" is really Me (Jesus). How? Did Jesus say "this is My beloved Son?"

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Thank you, I would love to engage in a friendly debate with a brother in Christ.

Lets first establish that we agree that the Father and the Son are One (Ahad). Yeshua (Jesus) quotes the Father by reciting the Shema, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!" Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! Mark 12:29 This is the first and the greatest commandment.

1. I believe that the commandments are the same, Yeshua (Jesus) is the living word of God according to John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. So Yeshua is the Torah, so I believe the standard of righteousness is the same now as was then. Therefore, Yeshua's commandments are the same as The Father because they are One.

Yeshua, who is also the living Torah is the way, the truth and the light. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, Who walk in the law of the Lord! Psalm 119:1, Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth. Psalm 119:142, For the commandment is a lamp, And the law a light Reproofs of instruction are the way of life, Proverbs 6:23

He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matthew 19:17

2. The response for question two is defined by my response from question 1, I do not think God has two separate criteria to determine righteousness, righteousness is the light and in the light there is no darkness.

Question for you
1. Why do you believe the commandments of the Father are different from those of the Son?

John 1:17 and 15:10 are great for starters. Mat 5 also comes to mind.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Did He not also say, not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until heaven and earth pass away? Heaven and earth are still here. Not all has been fulfilled, there still remains prophecy that has not yet come to pass.

Have you read LK 24:44?

bugkiller

 

[Bob S]

Have you read LK 24:44?

bugkiller

Thank you very much for the answer to 1Jn. Your help is always appreciated. Bob

 

[Bob S]

I don't agree with your interpretation of the verse. I do not see where He said they are different

1Jn, please, it is one thing to tell me why you do not agree and your answer which tells me nothing. By the way I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote. Lets try it again. Jesus was under the law speaking to Jews that were under the law. The new covenant was not in force yet. Jesus had to tell them that the Torah was still the law and not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until He fulfilled all the Torah. Lk24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

[Bob S]

Where in the Bible does He say that He changed the Fathers commandments? Passage and verse please.

Please read my post once more. In the post I didn't say Jesus changed the Father's commands. The covenants automatically changed at Calvary. Jesus fulfilled(to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time the old covenant and ushered in the new and better covenant. The writings of Paul confirm that this happened. Read Gal3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

See the "till". Other translations use until(up to the time that or when).

 

[Bob S]

Did He not also say, not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until heaven and earth pass away? Heaven and earth are still here. Not all has been fulfilled, there still remains prophecy that has not yet come to pass.

No He didn't 1Jn. He said: 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Well you read the verse wrong, but you do contend that Jesus didn't do what He came to do by writing "Not all has been fulfilled, there still remains prophecy that has not yet come to pass.", so there is more for Him to do at some point according to you. If that is true then we have no right to take one jot or one tittle out of Torah. We are still fully under all the laws of the Torah. There are no excuses. The sacrificial system of the Torah is still in effect. The Temple must be rebuilt and the Levitical priesthood restored. All of the 613 laws of Torah must be kept by the persons responsible.

Really, do you not see the folly of your stance?

 

[BobRyan]

How come God didn't ever ask any other nation to remember creation? .

Reading the Bible is such a great idea for avoiding false assertions.

Rev 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.