Why did Jesus Leave?

[Archaeopteryx]

You know the answer. Why would I waste time answering a rhetorical question? Again, I'm not here to play games.

In what way is it rhetorical? It's not. I asked you why you thought it would "terrible" to lose one's faith. You have repeatedly refused to give an answer. Calling it "rhetorical" is just another excuse.

 

[SteveB28]

You know the answer. Why would I waste time answering a rhetorical question? Again, I'm not here to play games.

I remember him asking that question - one that you ran away from.

If a Muslim came to you and told you that he had lost his faith in Islam and was going to become a Christian, would you tell him that it was "terrible" that he had lost his faith, or would you congratulate him for finding the 'truth' and welcome him with open arms?

 

[amariselle]

But they can't change your beliefs. YOU do that!

Wait a minute, I thought you said earlier that no one chooses their beliefs, but now you're saying people can change their beliefs?

Exactly, belief is a choice, and our words and actions have consequences. Whether you accept it or not, words can do grave damage in another person's life.

 

[amariselle]

You have declined to answer a number of questions and/or have refused to engage with the responses to your answers, which deal with the merits of those answers.

No, as you yourself have admitted, I have in fact given answers, you simply did not find them "satisfactory." Must we REALLY go over this ad nauseam?

 

[devolved]

Well, first of all, your definition of faith is entirely incorrect. I do not just "imagine" God.

I didn't define faith in this instance. I merely gave one of the attributes of faith... which is a construct you have to imagine... meaning it's not a thing you touch. It exists as a model of reality in your head. That's what a belief is.

Secondly, even if I did, you would still be incorrect. People can in fact damage the imagination of others.

No, they can't. Your imagination isn't something that other people have access to for damaging, unless you believe in Psychic powers.

However, since you mention it, my faith in God does match up with reality, thank you. I find nothing at all in reality that conflicts with the existence of God.

I find nothing in reality that conflicts with existence of leprechauns. Lack of conflict with reality is not how we determine whether something exists or not. Non-existing things will likewise have lack of conflict with reality.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, as you yourself have admitted, I have in fact given answers, you simply did not find them "satisfactory." Must we REALLY go over this ad nauseam?

Yes, and I explained why your answers didn't satisfy the question or why they raised further questions. You ignored my explanations or gave the meagre rebuttal of "that's just your opinion, man." In other words, it seems as though you don't care about the merit of your answers, so long as you are able to say that you gave an answer.

 

[SteveB28]

Wait a minute, I thought you said earlier that no one chooses their beliefs, but now you're saying people can change their beliefs?

It's the English that throws you, isn't it........?

Yes, you change your beliefs, but you don't make a choice to do so. You respond to the evidence that presents itself to you. If the body of evidence before you changes, your beliefs may change. The only 'choice' you exercise in the process is to decide whether or not you examine the evidence.

Exactly, belief is a choice, and our words and actions have consequences. Whether you accept it or not, words can do grave damage in another person's life.

You cannot choose to believe something any more than you can choose to grow a third arm.

 

[amariselle]

I didn't define faith in this instance. I merely gave one of the attributes of faith... which is a construct you have to imagine... meaning it's not a thing you touch. It exists as a model of reality in your head. That's what a belief is.

Alright, if that's all you think faith is.

No, they can't. Your imagination isn't something that other people have access to for damaging, unless you believe in Psychic powers.

Really? People can't have any effect on what someone else "imagines?" I disagree. But again, I don't "imagine" God, so imagination was never what I was talking about here.

I don't find nothing in reality that conflicts with existence of leprechauns. Lack of conflict with reality is not how we determine whether something exists or not. Non-existing things will likewise have lack of conflict with reality.

And you are of course free to believe in Leprechauns if you so choose.

And my point was, my faith in God does not simply lack conflict with reality, it lines up with reality for me.

 

[amariselle]

It's the English that throws you, isn't it........?

Once again, your condescension and mockery is greatly undermining your credibility. Such caustic responses indicate that you have no adequate response to questions asked of you, and so you must resort to personal attacks on someone else's intelligence. Quite telling.

Yes, you change your beliefs, but you don't make a choice to do so. You respond to the evidence that presents itself to you. If the body of evidence before you changes, your beliefs may change. The only 'choice' you exercise in the process is to decide whether or not you examine the evidence.

Your reasoning here is highly disingenuous. Belief or unbelief is clearly a choice, you even admitted we can choose, in that we choose to change our beliefs. Our choice goes far beyond simply "examining the evidence", we can in fact choose to either accept or reject that evidence. In so doing, we can choose to believe or disbelieve it.

You cannot choose to believe something any more than you can choose to grow a third arm.

Nonsense.

 

[devolved]

Wait a minute, I thought you said earlier that no one chooses their beliefs, but now you're saying people can change their beliefs?

Exactly, belief is a choice, and our words and actions have consequences. Whether you accept it or not, words can do grave damage in another person's life.

Our language is conceptual , hence the concept of "you changing your beliefs" doesn't mean that you literally reach down inside your brain and insert some beliefs, and you throw other in trash can.

What constitutes "you" is not a single entity, although it may seem like it. There are a number of compartmentalized brain activities that you have zero control or even awareness of. Many of these are responsible of processing information and informing your conscious choices.

Hence we may form false beliefs without ever knowing precisely because our subconscious or even conscious parts of the brain can't at times know the difference between reality and imaginary models.

That's why we developed methodology that keeps these issues at bay, and we generally self-evaluate and fact check. Sometimes the facts can be intentionally hidden from us, like in religious setting where dialogues that debate against any given belief system are suppressed and discouraged. Thus, there's only one-way flow of facts and information that prohibit rational choices.

When we say "only you can change your beliefs", we mean that only you can either consciously deny honest evaluation of facts, or you can allow it and take it on as a model.

Earlier I've asked you whether you believe that you can be wrong about God. You said that you can't be... hence it's an outright denial about any conflicting evidence... because you can't possibly be wrong. It's not a choice to believe something. It's a choice of closing your eyes and ears and saying "lalalalalal" by quoting the Bible.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Once again, your condescension and mockery is greatly undermining your credibility. Such caustic responses indicate that you have no adequate response to questions asked of you, .

Oh the irony.

 

[Deidre32]

Okay, but that doesn't remotely address my comments.

Okay.

 

[Deidre32]

But you do need to defend your claims about the Bible.

why? to gain your approval?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Belief or unbelief is clearly a choice, you even admitted we can choose, in that we choose to change our beliefs. Our choice goes far beyond simply "examining the evidence", we can in fact choose to either accept or reject that evidence. In so doing, we can choose to believe or disbelieve it.

Yet, when I asked whether you could choose to believe that there was a unicorn in your backyard, you couldn't do it.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

why? to gain your approval?

No, because this is a philosophy forum. Or did you wander in here by mistake?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Okay.

So are you going to address them or not?

 

[amariselle]

Our language is conceptual , hence the concept of "you changing your beliefs" doesn't mean that you literally reach down inside your brain and insert some beliefs, and you throw other in trash can.

What constitutes "you" is not a single entity, although it may seem like it. There are a number of compartmentalized brain activities that you have zero control or even awareness of. Many of these are responsible of processing information and informing your conscious choices.

Hence we may form false beliefs without ever knowing precisely because our subconscious or even conscious parts of the brain know the difference between reality and imaginary models.

That's why we developed methodology that keeps these issues at bay, and we generally self-evaluate and fact check. Sometimes the facts can be intentionally hidden from us, like in religious setting where dialogues that debate against any given belief system are suppressed and discouraged. Thus, there's only one-way flow of facts and information that prohibit rational choices.

When we say "only you can change your beliefs", we mean that only you can either consciously deny honest evaluation of facts, or you can allow it and take it on as a model.

Earlier I've asked you whether you believe that you can be wrong about God. You said that you can't be... hence it's an outright denial about any conflicting evidence... because you can't possibly be wrong. It's not a choice to believe something. It's a choice of closing your eyes and ears and saying "lalalalalal" by quoting the Bible.

That logic might be applicable if I lived in some compound or convent somewhere and therefore spent all of my time only surrounded by those who believe as I do, with no challenges to my beliefs.

This is not the case however. I live in the same world as you do, I attended secular schools and I have many friends and family members who are not Christians. It's not as though I haven't been presented with other views and beliefs, and I don't live in some kind of self-imposed bubble. And if I even wanted to, I wouldn't bother reading and posting on a forum such as this, now would I?

 

[SteveB28]

Once again, your condescension and mockery is greatly undermining your credibility. Such caustic responses indicate that you have no adequate response to questions asked of you, and so you must resort to personal attacks on someone else's intelligence. Quite telling.



Your reasoning here is highly disingenuous. Belief or unbelief is clearly a choice, you even admitted we can choose, in that we choose to change our beliefs. Our choice goes far beyond simply "examining the evidence", we can in fact choose to either accept or reject that evidence. In so doing, we can choose to believe or disbelieve it.



Nonsense.

Please tell me how I could choose to believe in Santa Claus. Please tell me how I could choose to believe that Sydney is located near the North Pole. Please tell me how I can choose to believe that water boils at 0 degrees.

I can choose to examine the EVIDENCE associated with these matters, but my beliefs form on their own.

I suggest you do some research. I am sure the American Psychological Association, or similar, can provide you with the knowledge you are so sorely lacking.

 

[amariselle]

Yet, when I asked whether you could choose to believe that there was a unicorn in your backyard, you couldn't do it.

Because unlike my belief in God, which I have freely chosen, belief in a unicorn on my front lawn does NOT line up with reality, therefore I freely choose to reject it. That is my choice.

 

[devolved]

Alright, if that's all you think faith is.

I've actually said that I'm not defining faith. I said that imaginary is one of the attributes of faith as a belief. A belief is an imaginary construct. Do you understand what imaginary means? It means that it exists as a picture of reality in your head. Whether it matches up with reality or not is a secondary discussion.

Really? People can't have any effect on what someone else "imagines?" I disagree. But again, I don't "imagine" God, so imagination was never what I was talking about here.

So, you downgrade from "damaging" to "have effect on". I think it's a progress. Having effect on doesn't imply damage, neither it implies any modification of anything substantial.

And my point was, my faith in God does not simply lack conflict with reality, it lines up with reality for me.

The way you phrased it made it sound like it lines up with reality by not having a conflict with reality, but fair enough.

A false perception can appear to line up with reality, hence that's how scam artists get paid. I think that we have to agree that just because something seems to line up with reality doesn't necessarily make is so, especially when you can't explain or demonstrate how... which you admitted that you can't.