LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Ironhold]

Yes, I've seen it. It's not just in the US either. All LDS Mormons study the exact same thing in every ward around the world each week. No teacher "should" stray from teaching the lesson for the date, but some occasionally do. Then there are those who loosely teach what is in the manual, but present their own opinionated spin on the contents. Not every Mormon absorbs what is being taught exactly alike either. That's why there is so many differences between Mormons and their knowledge of doctrines, with so many apologist references being necessary.

Such a mechanical schedule doesn't allow any carrying the subject over to the next week in order to answer involved questions or responding to challenges either. They are discouraged. It's on to the next lesson for the Sunday, by rote.

Actually?

1. Gospel Principles teachers are encouraged to set their own pace depending upon the speed at which the class is learning.

2. The lesson manuals represent a bare minimum; it's always been on the membership to study matters out from there, something that the leadership has repeatedly made clear.

 

[tickingclocker]

Actually?

1. Gospel Principles teachers are encouraged to set their own pace depending upon the speed at which the class is learning.

2. The lesson manuals represent a bare minimum; it's always been on the membership to study matters out from there, something that the leadership has repeatedly made clear.

.... in your ward. "You" do not attend every LDS ward in the world. Go on any Mormon chat room (not ex-Mormon) and note how many frustrated Mormons are there who feel they must keep up with "the program". It's not a criticism. It's simply a statement of what I have seen and experienced in various ways.

"Gospel Principles" are taught to NEW Mormons, and therefore have more leeway time-wise. It's not used for Sunday school classes for general membership.

Others used for LDS Sunday school classes:
Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual
Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Class Member Study Guide
Old Testament Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual
Old Testament Class Member Study Guide
New Testament Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual
New Testament Class Member Study Guide

Not a good idea to narrow your defense to one option. We are not playing Musical Chairs.

 

[Peter1000]

The lds priesthood is a farce. No such thing. Christ is our High Priest. HIM and ONLY HIM! Therefore, the rest of your post is a lie.

It is not nice to call people liars.

Jesus is the great High Priest, but it is spiritually, and biblically illogical that the great High Priest, who is in heaven, would not need helpers to expand his church and keep it organized and on the right path. The highest helpers on earth were the apostles, then bishops, then elders, then pastors, then evangelists, then teachers, then priests, then deacons.

It would be spiritually, and biblically illogical that the great High Priest would not give to his helpers the same priesthood power (royal priesthood) that he held in order to expand the church and keep it organized and on the right path. That's what the keys are all about. Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of God. Without those keys, whatever was done would not be recognized in heaven. That's what Melchisedec Priesthood power is. It is mentioned in the bible as the "royal priesthood", or the same Melchisedec priesthood that Jesus (the King of Kings) had and has today.

Even if the LDS priesthood is a fraud, it is at least on the same level as a church that denies the priesthood even exists. At least we have the form of the NT church organization and we at acknowledge that the priesthood of the Lord is on earth today. At least we do not fight against it.

 

[Peter1000]

And no one really learns how to apply anything to their life. But maybe that is the point, tell them

It is a little beyond the point, but a point well taken. Something tells me that you go to Sunday School and then after you study more about the lesson and try to apply it to your life. You are in the vast minority of all Christians, Mormons included. I do sometimes, when I feel the HS telling me to do some more study time on a subject. But most people just go through the motions of going to church and then going home and getting back into the world.

 

[BigDaddy4]

It is not nice to call people liars.

Jesus is the great High Priest, but it is spiritually, and biblically illogical that the great High Priest, who is in heaven, would not need helpers to expand his church and keep it organized and on the right path. The highest helpers on earth were the apostles, then bishops, then elders, then pastors, then evangelists, then teachers, then priests, then deacons.

It would be spiritually, and biblically illogical that the great High Priest would not give to his helpers the same priesthood power (royal priesthood) that he held in order to expand the church and keep it organized and on the right path. That's what the keys are all about. Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of God. Without those keys, whatever was done would not be recognized in heaven. That's what Melchisedec Priesthood power is. It is mentioned in the bible as the "royal priesthood", or the same Melchisedec priesthood that Jesus (the King of Kings) had and has today.

Even if the LDS priesthood is a fraud, it is at least on the same level as a church that denies the priesthood even exists. At least we have the form of the NT church organization and we at acknowledge that the priesthood of the Lord is on earth today. At least we do not fight against it.

You are not speaking the truth again.

"At least we have the form of the NT church organization..." The Aaronic priesthood was never part of the "NT church organization".

And "royal priesthood" =/= "Melchisedec Priesthood", nor does it mean we are given "High Priest" powers equal to Jesus.

Why would you not fight against a fraudulant priesthood? That means you accept the falsehood and not the Truth.

 

[mmksparbud]

"The highest helpers on earth were the apostles, then bishops, then elders, then pastors, then evangelists, then teachers, then priests, then deacons."

You list priests in your line up----but there is no verse that states priests were a part of that lineup. You sneak that into the list.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It is not nice to call people liars.

Jesus is the great High Priest, but it is spiritually, and biblically illogical that the great High Priest, who is in heaven, would not need helpers to expand his church and keep it organized and on the right path. The highest helpers on earth were the apostles, then bishops, then elders, then pastors, then evangelists, then teachers, then priests, then deacons.

It would be spiritually, and biblically illogical that the great High Priest would not give to his helpers the same priesthood power (royal priesthood) that he held in order to expand the church and keep it organized and on the right path.

What you are calling 'biblically illogical' means that it's not in the Bible. There are no priests, because each Child of God is part of Christ's prieshood.

Jesus did not hold the power of the royal priesthood. Jesus Christ is the High Priest.

You haven't gotten this concept down yet. How can I help you understand? This is a major concept.

 

[ToBeLoved]

"The highest helpers on earth were the apostles, then bishops, then elders, then pastors, then evangelists, then teachers, then priests, then deacons."

You list priests in your line up----but there is no verse that states priests were a part of that lineup. You sneak that into the list.

I caught that too.

I don't think there is this hierarchy like he has it laid out either. 'The highest helpers'. What's that about?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

...Yet as the post I made concerning a certain massacre shows, mainline Christianity didn't exactly feel compelled to follow said edict.

So you're saying that the Armenian Church is not mainline Christianity? That tell me all I need to know about the fact that you know little about the history of Christianity.

 

[ToBeLoved]

..

 

[fatboys]

Well now that you know, just lower your expectations like the rest of us.

Quit being so rude

 

[ToBeLoved]

..

 

[ToBeLoved]

Quit being so rude

That was a little over the top. I'll be nicer.

 

[Peter1000]

You are not speaking the truth again.

"At least we have the form of the NT church organization..." The Aaronic priesthood was never part of the "NT church organization".

And "royal priesthood" =/= "Melchisedec Priesthood", nor does it mean we are given "High Priest" powers equal to Jesus.

Why would you not fight against a fraudulant priesthood? That means you accept the falsehood and not the Truth.

You say: The Aaronic priesthood was never part of the "NT church organization".
You are erring on the side of no priesthood in the NT church organization. If I err, it will be on the side that there was AP and MP in the NT church organization.

This is how it works. The apostles held both the AP and MP and could officiate in all the world, and do all the duties of all the offices of the priesthood. (i.e. bishop, elders, priests, deacons, teachers, deacons, pastors, evangelists etc.). The bishop held both the AP and MP, but could only officiate for a certain local area that the apostles gave them power over. They could officiate and do all the duties of all the other offices of the priesthood that was below them. Elders held the AP and MP, and could officiate only in the local area that they were given power, and only after the bishop gave them the authority to perform the duties of all the offices of the priesthood below them. Priests, Teachers, and Deacons only held the AP and could officiate only in a local area and could perform duties that were given them by their bishop.

The bible does not say much about these offices in the priesthood. It does give the names of the offices. It does give a guideline of qualifications for some of the offices. It does not give much information about what the duties are for each office. So there is very little information in the bible about how the church organizations were run.

You say: And "royal priesthood" =/= "Melchisedec Priesthood", nor does it mean we are given "High Priest" powers equal to Jesus.

The MP was the priesthood that was the officiating priesthood that Jesus held and passed on to his apostles.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jesus also passed on to Peter and the apostles the highest power he could pass on to them, the power to forgive sins (Mat. 16:19), and the power to give the gift of the HS (Acts 8:14-17). The only power I can think of that he kept to himself is the power to raise people from the dead.

If I thought that JS was given a fraudulent priesthood, I would fight against it with all of my might. The reason that I am a Mormon, ironically, is because of JS claim that John the Baptist came to him and gave him the AP and Peter, James, and John, apostles of the Lord came to him and gave him the MP. If I believed that this did not happen, I would not be a Mormon.

I would also not be a member of a church that did not proclaim these priesthoods, or that they in fact deny these priesthoods even exist.

 

[tickingclocker]

You are not speaking the truth again.

"At least we have the form of the NT church organization..." The Aaronic priesthood was never part of the "NT church organization".

And "royal priesthood" =/= "Melchisedec Priesthood", nor does it mean we are given "High Priest" powers equal to Jesus.

Why would you not fight against a fraudulant priesthood? That means you accept the falsehood and not the Truth.

It's very simple. The LDS wishes to continue the old form, because the new form, where all believers essentially hold the office and ministry of priesthood, becomes the great spiritual equalizer. There is no veil, no temple, no sacrifice, between the Christian and God any longer. He dispensed with the old system's limitations through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. We are now all one--in Him. Equals. There is a divine reason that there is no more veil, no more temple, no more animal sacrifices. They don't grasp what that literally shouts to the believer.

The present hierarchy of the LDS would cease to exist without the form of "power" structure they keep manipulating into finer and finer complex corners. The entire thing would come crashing down if they equalized everyone like Jesus Christ did on the Cross. Christians no longer need "priests" between us and God, being God's temples and priests! Apparently, Mormons prefer to have a human for a buffering safety shield between them and God? IDK why they felt the need to attach some Christian false "apostasy" to it in order to "believe" it is still meant for today, but JS insisted upon doing so. Maybe that's why everyone, including Mormons, identify it as... mormonism.

 

[Peter1000]

What you are calling 'biblically illogical' means that it's not in the Bible. There are no priests, because each Child of God is part of Christ's prieshood.

Jesus did not hold the power of the royal priesthood. Jesus Christ is the High Priest.

You haven't gotten this concept down yet. How can I help you understand? This is a major concept.

When I say "biblically illogical", I mean, Jesus, who is the great High Priest of the MP, and would certainly need people to help him administer the earthly church because he is in heaven, it would be illogical for him to keep all the power to do that with himself. He must have passed that power on to his aposltes (his highest helpers),
which he did. (Mat. 16:19)

I'm sorry, but for a church that has denied the existence of priesthood for nearly 600 years and for yourself, all of your thinking life, it is not rude to tell me I haven't got this concept down yet, it's just silly. If you were to give a Sunday School talk on the MP it would take all of 2 minutes, maybe less.

But I do appreciate your willingness to help me. It truely is a major concept.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You say: The Aaronic priesthood was never part of the "NT church organization".
You are erring on the side of no priesthood in the NT church organization. If I err, it will be on the side that there was AP and MP in the NT church organization.

This is how it works. The apostles held both the AP and MP and could officiate in all the world, and do all the duties of all the offices of the priesthood. (i.e. bishop, elders, priests, deacons, teachers, deacons, pastors, evangelists etc.). The bishop held both the AP and MP, but could only officiate for a certain local area that the apostles gave them power over. They could officiate and do all the duties of all the other offices of the priesthood that was below them. Elders held the AP and MP, and could officiate only in the local area that they were given power, and only after the bishop gave them the authority to perform the duties of all the offices of the priesthood below them. Priests, Teachers, and Deacons only held the AP and could officiate only in a local area and could perform duties that were given them by their bishop.

The bible does not say much about these offices in the priesthood. It does give the names of the offices. It does give a guideline of qualifications for some of the offices. It does not give much information about what the duties are for each office. So there is very little information in the bible about how the church organizations were run.

You say: And "royal priesthood" =/= "Melchisedec Priesthood", nor does it mean we are given "High Priest" powers equal to Jesus.

The MP was the priesthood that was the officiating priesthood that Jesus held and passed on to his apostles.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jesus also passed on to Peter and the apostles the highest power he could pass on to them, the power to forgive sins (Mat. 16:19), and the power to give the gift of the HS (Acts 8:14-17). The only power I can think of that he kept to himself is the power to raise people from the dead.

If I thought that JS was given a fraudulent priesthood, I would fight against it with all of my might. The reason that I am a Mormon, ironically, is because of JS claim that John the Baptist came to him and gave him the AP and Peter, James, and John, apostles of the Lord came to him and gave him the MP. If I believed that this did not happen, I would not be a Mormon.

I would also not be a member of a church that did not proclaim these priesthoods, or that they in fact deny these priesthoods even exist.

This is a tall tale. No theories please

You are nothing special, because their is not a NT priesthood.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BigDaddy4]

You say: The Aaronic priesthood was never part of the "NT church organization".
You are erring on the side of no priesthood in the NT church organization. If I err, it will be on the side that there was AP and MP in the NT church organization.

This is how it works. The apostles held both the AP and MP and could officiate in all the world, and do all the duties of all the offices of the priesthood. (i.e. bishop, elders, priests, deacons, teachers, deacons, pastors, evangelists etc.). The bishop held both the AP and MP, but could only officiate for a certain local area that the apostles gave them power over. They could officiate and do all the duties of all the other offices of the priesthood that was below them. Elders held the AP and MP, and could officiate only in the local area that they were given power, and only after the bishop gave them the authority to perform the duties of all the offices of the priesthood below them. Priests, Teachers, and Deacons only held the AP and could officiate only in a local area and could perform duties that were given them by their bishop.

The bible does not say much about these offices in the priesthood. It does give the names of the offices. It does give a guideline of qualifications for some of the offices. It does not give much information about what the duties are for each office. So there is very little information in the bible about how the church organizations were run.

You say: And "royal priesthood" =/= "Melchisedec Priesthood", nor does it mean we are given "High Priest" powers equal to Jesus.

The MP was the priesthood that was the officiating priesthood that Jesus held and passed on to his apostles.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jesus also passed on to Peter and the apostles the highest power he could pass on to them, the power to forgive sins (Mat. 16:19), and the power to give the gift of the HS (Acts 8:14-17). The only power I can think of that he kept to himself is the power to raise people from the dead.

If I thought that JS was given a fraudulent priesthood, I would fight against it with all of my might. The reason that I am a Mormon, ironically, is because of JS claim that John the Baptist came to him and gave him the AP and Peter, James, and John, apostles of the Lord came to him and gave him the MP. If I believed that this did not happen, I would not be a Mormon.

I would also not be a member of a church that did not proclaim these priesthoods, or that they in fact deny these priesthoods even exist.

Unfortunately, you have no Biblical support to back you up. What attempts at Biblical support you have made, are only the twistings of Scripture through the mormon organization teachings. They are not reality.

You should not be a mormon, because what you said JS claimed to happen, did not happen. But then you put yourself into a corner, because no Bible believing church believes these priesthoods exist today. Because they actually don't.

 

[Peter1000]

It's very simple. The LDS wishes to continue the old form, because the new form, where all believers essentially hold the office and ministry of priesthood, becomes the great spiritual equalizer. There is no veil, no temple, no sacrifice, between the Christian and God any longer. He dispensed with the old system's limitations through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. We are now all one--in Him. Equals. There is a divine reason that there is no more veil, no more temple, no more animal sacrifices. They don't grasp what that literally shouts to the believer.

The present hierarchy of the LDS would cease to exist without the form of "power" structure they keep manipulating into finer and finer complex corners. The entire thing would come crashing down if they equalized everyone like Jesus Christ did on the Cross. Christians no longer need "priests" between us and God, being God's temples and priests! Apparently, Mormons prefer to have a human for a buffering safety shield between them and God? IDK why they felt the need to attach some Christian false "apostasy" to it in order to "believe" it is still meant for today, but JS insisted upon doing so. Maybe that's why everyone, including Mormons, identify it as... mormonism.

First of all, since you do not believe in the priesthood, no one in your church has it or wants it. So just to say that we are all priesthood holders and that is the great spiritual equalizer means nothing.

The Mormons have a temple, and a veil, but we do not sacrifice animals any more, that was done away when the last great sacrifice of Jesus Christ was made. Now we remember him through the sacrament of the Lord's supper.
Or do you even do the sacrament, since you probably do not believe that ordinance saves you, so why do it?

The present power structure that exists in the church today is approximately the same power structure that existed in the NT church. Every member that is baptized is given the opportunity to hold the priesthood and act in their calling thereof. Some don't take it seriously and don't take the priesthood. Some take the priesthood and then fall away and their priesthood is useless to them. You were once a member, what priesthood did you hold?

Christians need the priesthood between them and God still for certain ordinances to be performed. They do not need a priesthood holder between them to pray to God for guidance and blessings. When the protestant movement took shape around 1500ad, this was a major issue. It was decided then that because of the corrupt Catholic church priesthhod, there didn't need to be a priest between God and man, hence the belief that there really isn't any priesthood. Luther was wrong. There is a need. The same need that the NT people needed apostles and bishops and elders etc., etc., etc. Read the NT again and ask yourself where is my apostle today?
Where is my bishop as in the NT, where are the Elders of the church, like in the NT? What offices do you have in your church. Maybe a pastor, or deacon. Well that's a start, but is woefully short of the NT church organization.
I know that doesn't matter to you because it doesn't fit your agenda, but if Christ thought these offices were important, maybe they are.

 

[NYCGuy]

That is why the Mormon church is continually moving up and is now the 4th largest church in the U.S. and will soon be the 3rd largest.

Citations please.

We are converting strong Christians, thousands every year, simply because Mormonism does not look like mainstream Christianity today. Thousands of mainstream Christians every year come to the realization that their church is not like the NT church that they read about every Sunday, and they want that. Mormonism gives them that. That is why we increase every year. Not decrease.

Interestingly, it was my realization that the Mormon church is not like the NT church that led me out of it.